<p>Responses appreciated as is the Oberlin link as that is high on her list.</p>
<p>I guess guidance instead of "a guide" is what I should have said.</p>
<p>I imagine when they say average award, they mean a combination of loans and grants/scholarships? So some of that needs to be repaid along with the other 20K you have to come up with on your own to afford Oberlin, as an example since the link for their average was posted. </p>
<p>So it does sound that unless you are wealthy and have dispossal income, you are likely to run up an over $100K debt for 5 years at Oberlin. Whereas going to a state university could be less than a fifth of that. Tough to justify that kind of luxury when you are barely middle class. Take another job to try and make payments on the loan and you lose funding for the next year? This justs gets uglier and uglier.</p>
<p>Binx my thinking, flawed as it probably is, revolved only around not applying to schools we could not afford and trying to find the best school we could find a way to finance.</p>
<p>YES loans count as "Financial Aid" in schools' financial aid statistics and they DO like to use them. S got into a state school (not my musician) and we got a "financial aid package" which was some loan applications. I ignored it and close to the deadline, a financial aid officer called and demanded to know why I wasn't taking out these loans. After some talking it became apparent that the only reason they were hawking the loans was for their financial aid statistics.</p>
<p>I'm from the simple school of financial aid, it's only aid if it reduces the total cost, not if it defers cost to another time...</p>
<p>The data from the Oberlin link posted earlier gives both average total aid (grants plus work-study plus loans) and average grant. You can get a rough idea of your actual cost by subtracting the average grant for your income level from the cost of attendance, which was about $35K back then. At Oberlin, you can also lower the cost of attendance by a few thousand dollars by joining the housing and dining co-ops. They require a few hours of work per week, but on average the amount saved divided by the hours worked comes out to a better salary than any of the work-study jobs, it is not taxable and you learn some valuable life skills to boot.</p>
<p>These numbers are also completely independent of merit-based aid, which is given to about a third of conservatory students in the amount of $8K to $12K per year, renewable for five years for double degree students. If she is good enough to get one of these, the cost per year could be a good bit less than your EFC. If you can afford to pay even $10K per year toward her education and she works over the summers, then I think the debt at graduation would be a lot less than you think.</p>
<p>The likelihood of getting at least some aid can be estimated by dividing the number who demonstrated need by the number of aid applicants. It is pretty good for family incomes up to $100K.</p>
<p>Using the link from BassDad I was looking around and found this very informative page at Oberlin's site. Dont know why I missed it before, guess I have to improve my surfing technique.</p>
<p>From everything published about the very slim odds of any of our kids making a living in the arts, and the paltry sums they tend to make if they do, it is not wise to burden their futures and our survival with debts. Noone plays/sings well if they are under stress, so it becomes a self-perpetuating problem.....if they are desparate to get the job because of financial issues, they will be less likely to get it. My daughter makes a living, but barely, singing opera in Germany, and she is a house star. She could not possibly manage any debts, and as it is, she wakes up in the middle of the night in a panic about money. It is one thing to take on debts to go to medical school, but music is something else entirely.</p>
<p>Am I reading that Oberlin table right? On average a student whose parental income is below $20K has to come up with $10K not including any loans in the financial package. I'm assuming the non-grant portion of the package includes both fed loans (on which interest and payment are deferred) and work-study.
If that's the case, then it seems that the top colleges expect a student (or his or her parents) to be some $50K in debt at graduation.</p>
<p>I remember seeing a cover story in Parade magazine of a family where all the kids (4 or 5) went to Harvard. The parents said they never took vacations, and re-financed their house 7 or 8 times. I guess it depends on your priorities (and maybe your guilt level).</p>
<p>Also don't forget that while other kids are working during the summer, your talented music kid will want to go to Tanglewood. (although there are some jobs there). </p>
<p>FluteMomLiz: My daughter really likes Walfrid Kujala. He's 80 years old and somewhat of a grandfatherly type, but he is picky and makes her be very precise in her playing. When my daughter took audtions, her other two took about 10 to 15 minutes each, but Kujala took about 45 minutes with her, talking to her and asking her to do certain things differently to see if she could pick up on new things. Also, when she was accepted he a made a personal phone call to her. --As a junior she takes lessons from Richard Graef who is Asst. Princ. in the CSO, and who she also really likes, but will be back with Kujala next year.</p>
<p>It is hard to tell exactly how much those in the under-$20K income group are paying out of pocket. Oberlin admissions is NOT need-blind and has not been for several years. Anyone who needs a full ride to attend will also need academic credentials that are beyond excellent to be admitted. That would likely get them merit money from Oberlin, and possibly from other sources. </p>
<p>The numbers quoted are for amounts received by admitted students, not offered to accepted students, so they represent people who have actually taken a $30K grant to attend a $45K school. Nobody could possibly expect someone making $20K per year to pay three-quarters of that for college. I would think that there must be some other circumstances involved like someone with huge amounts of assets but very low current income. (A recent layoff or a bad year for someone who is self-employed, perhaps.) Maybe the grandparents are also helping out.</p>
<p>I don't know if anybody has mentioned Rice yet. They are regularly listed in the 'best value' guides. I don't know how they are with aid, but their total cost is a bit lower in general. And of course, a fabulous music school.</p>
<p>I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, but Indiana University seems be a good choice in terms of cost. </p>
<p>It's not too expensive to begin with, compared to private schools, and when you add the possibility of financial aid (which they seem to be very liberal with), the cost goes down even more. Not to mention I seem to hear IU's music school compared to many of the great conservatories recently quite often. Anyway, just to give you an idea, my audition went pretty badly (as far as I remember), but I received 10,000 in merit aid from Jacob's school of music. In addition, if your daughter has fairly good grades/SAT scores, she may also receive some sort of financial aid from the university itself. I was given 7000 a year from this type of merit aid. Now IU is one of my top choices, not just because of this significantly lower cost, but because of all of the opportunities that a big university and music school have to offer.</p>
<p>Hope this helps. Another thing--have your daughter apply for scholarships starting now. They seem so small, but they'll add up. I've waited till now, my senior year, to apply for aid and I'[m having trouble finding the time to write the essays and fill out the forms. It's best to start early. I'm sure if she continues to practice a lot, and also makes sure to concentrate on the academic side of high school, she'll be fine.</p>
<p>FluteMomLiz: I thought maybe our recent experience would help with your financial planning. My son applied to several "top tier" conservatories and universities and received very similar finiancial aid packages from all the ones to which he was accepted: merit scholarship, small subsidized Stafford loan, and work study to meet the difference between the actual cost of attending and our FAFSA EFC. So, essentially, we will pay the same amount (EFC) no matter where he chooses to go among those top schools.</p>
<p>My son didn't apply to any of the good-but-not-great "second tier" schools, but has some very talented friends who received full scholarships or other big awards, regardless of EFC. There are some great teachers located at some of the less popular schools, however, the down-side of this situation is that your very talented daughter would probably be a big fish pretty quickly, which is usually not the best environment for musicians to grow.</p>
<p>My son's safety strategy was to apply to our 2 in-state schools that have fairly good music programs. With our state lottery scholarship, some music merit money, and a state employee (me) tuition discount, his cost to attend either of these schools would be almost nothing. His intent was to attend for one year if he had to, and try again for a conservatory next year. Thankfully, he won't have to do that.</p>
<p>If your daughter does decide to apply to the top schools, I would encourage her not to get her heart set on any one place and find 6-8 acceptable options. In addition to the really low acceptance rates, some of the schools do not even accept incoming freshmen on every instrument each year. This happened with two conservatories in which my son was very interested. Curtis did not even take applications for trumpet students this year, and CIM accepted 2 grad students and a transfer student, but no incoming freshmen.</p>
<p>I hope this information is helpful. Good luck to your daughter!</p>
<p>Thanks Srtatzarina, Indiana is a bit of a question mark because their flute teacher situation is in a bit of a flux. But its a great school. </p>
<p>Mommab I thought I was going nutz looking at a publication that made it look like you end up paying about the same at almost all the schools. More expensive more aid, less expensive less aid. Seemed like it ended up being about 7000 cash a year, which we would have to borrow. Also aid that was in the form of loans of 15-18 per year. Not sure exactly what form the rest of the aid was given but it looked like it might not have to be repaid.</p>
<p>Going 120K in debt no matter which big school she picked, if she got in naturally does not seem possible. The question remains whether we eliminate them now or leave them on the list and let them eliminate themselves later.</p>
<p>Second tier and state schools look like we could end up only about 20K in debt, something we could find a way to live with.</p>
<p>BassDad back early in this thread you mentioned, Felix Skowronek at University of Washington, just wanted to mention to you that he passed away earlier this month.</p>
<p>I'm currently a High School Sr. that will be graduating early in Jan. of 07. I actually currently go to UNT for my studies on flute. Mary Karen Clardy was talked about earlier in the post. I would just like to say that, yes she is known world wide as a player but her students don't always come out on the top of many competitions I go to. I study with Terri Sundberg and she is absolutely wonderful!</p>
<p>I was actually at the Texas Flute Society's Convention about three weeks ago or so and I ran into a Myrna Brown Competition Finalist. I didn't know she was until about 20 min into our conversation, she almost won the contest too I believe, but anyways, She told me she was working on her masters at Cincinnati Conservatory with Dr. Bradley Garner, who is also a teacher at Juilliard. I was very impressed, and so I asked her "Where did you work on your undergrad at?" and she said "At UNT with Terri Sundberg." </p>
<p>If you decide to send your daughter to UNT, alot of the local flutist know, Terri Sundberg is the way to go. She is a great player to sit and listen to as well as a great teacher. Her lessons are very "inspirational." =)</p>
<p>Anyways another great thing she should look into is the National Flute Association stuff. They have two contests for High School Students and it looks great on a college app. I have gotten into the National High School Flute Choir last time in San Diego and this upcoming time in Pittsburgh. If you have the money or live close by it would be great just to go. I got to meet alot of college professors and go to alot of concerts and learn so much more about flute. I have met several people who I know that we will be in contact for a while, b/c its just great meeting other High School students that practice you know, 3-4 hours a day, and that actually care about their music unlike most who just are in school band or w/e. There is more on the flute convention on the NFA web page <a href="http://www.nfaonline.org/%5B/url%5D">http://www.nfaonline.org/</a> . It is a great time and yes, its a little nerdy. (My friends make fun of me saying its like a star trek convention for flute) Then there is the National Soloist Competition, I wouldn't recommend it unless your daughter is really serious about Flute, I think 3 or 4 of the finalist last year (out of 8) were Julliard Pre-College Div. kids, they are all very fine players. For both the Soloist and Choir comp. you send in recordings of yourself playing songs selected by them.</p>
<p>I also was in a masterclass with Christina Jennings at the Texas Flute Convention and she was great as well. She just got on staff at Boulder, I don't even think she is listed on their web page yet, and I don't know if it still might be a secret when your daughter auditions or not, I'm hoping it will be when I audition next spring or this fall, so then there won't be 200 people auditioning for 3 spots or w/e. </p>
<p>I'm still in High School so I still haven't figured the system out yet, But anyways what colleges or teachers have you had the chance to meet and what did you think?</p>
<p>You probably have not read the entire thread but our daughter has been a member of NFA for several years and has attended the Convention and like you found it an excellent experience.</p>
<p>Alexa Still has said kind things about Christina Jennings(From Seattle area I think) who is taking over the program now that Alexa has left for NZ. Thanks for the info on Terri Sundberg, not sure if we have met her along the way but good to know she comes highly recommended. Thinking now is if she auditions in Texas it would be for Leone Buyse at Rice, but Texas isn't high on her list right now.</p>
<p>Our daughter has been fortunate to meet and or take class with a couple dozen or so name flute players/professors like Debost, Buyse, Langevin, Amsler, Cuehlo, Garner, Wincenc, Lloyd, WIBB, Larson, Schocker, etc. About all I can remember off the top of my head.</p>
<p>I do know she liked almost all of them. In fact she was so impressed with Wincenc she is considering putting Julliard back on her list even though we had scratched off NYC schools. But Julliard is such a long shot I doubt it makes the cut for expense of travel and audition reasons if nothing else. I beleive Carol Wincenc said they had 25 qualified applicants for Julliard(good enough to be in the program) out of the over 100 that auditioned but they only have 3 spots. So even if you are unbelievably good, you have to be lucky too when it comes to Julliard and Curtis.</p>
<p>Pleas keep posting anything new you can share and let us know how your decision making and auditioning goes. Hope we get to Pittsburgh to see the Flute Choir play.</p>
<p>There are other music faculty members at Stony Brook who are also faculty members at the big NYC schools. Clarinet prof at Stony Brook has appointments at both Juilliard and MSM. This is the case with many professors at the NYC schools including Stony Brook; they have multiple appointments to help pay the bills. Now there are disadvantages to this, as they flit from one school to the other, so getting time impromtu time with them can be tough.</p>
<p>The "Brook" is actually a nice school and it is part of the SUNY system so it's tuition is lower than private schools. I'm an alum from one of their scientific doctorate programs. It's in a very beautiful part of Long Island. Unfortunately, I don't have many more specifics on the music program as it never factored into D's plans and during my tenure there over 20 years ago, I did not interact with any music students.</p>