<p>My DS has narrowed his college choices down to Univ of Portland engineering school and Stonehill College's 3/2 engineering program with Notre Dame. Both are Holy Cross Schools and in my opinion are truly hidden gems, and he can't go wrong attending either one. Apart from the obvious cultural/geographical differences of one being in the Northwest and the other near Boston, does anyone have any strong opinions about which program would be better for an undecided engineer? Is it better to pursue a true Liberal Arts Education at Stonehill just in case he decides engineering isn't for him after all, or is he better off starting off in a true engineering school at Portland and switching majors if he doesn't like it after all? I would really like to hear from anyone who has pursued a similar 3/2 or 4/1 engineering program starting in a liberal arts college (better yet if you have done the Stonehill/Notre Dame program), or if you initially considered it, why you went with a 4 year traditional engineering school instead. Both schools have been very generous with aid, although the 5 year program would be more expensive - but would it be worth it, given I can't help but think he would ultimately end up with a more well rounded education. Both schools have fantastic study abroad options as well. So if there are any Univ of Portland engineering students, or Stonehill students on this board, please chime in with your thoughts!</p>
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My son considered 3/2, but didn’t do it. The main reason was that his first choice school accepted him; the 3/2 was a backup. But I still had concerns. The biggest concern is that I’ve heard that very few people actually follow through with the 3/2, not wanting to leave their LAC after three years and start over with new people and a new school. Now if the student has genuinely changed plans, that’s fine, but if he uses that as an excuse to settle for something else because it’s such a pain to start over, it isn’t fine. I probably would have pressured him not to pick the 3/2 option if it had come to it, for just that reason. You could always plan on five years and two degrees (or just lots of interesting LA courses) at the Univ of Portland instead.</p>
<p>Congrats on excellent options, and good luck!</p>
<p>Some questions to ask about the 3/2:</p>
<ol>
<li> Is transfer guaranteed, dependent on GPA, or based on competitive application to transfer?</li>
<li> How does cost and financial aid work at the “2” school?</li>
<li> If a student does the 3/2, will he need to do a lot of catch-up courses at the “2” school because engineering courses commonly taken in sophomore year were not available at the “3” school?</li>
<li> Does he want to risk going through 3 years and then transferring before taking any engineering courses that are commonly done in sophomore year, but not available at the “3” school? If, after transfer, he does not like his first engineering courses, that may not be too good a situation to be in.</li>
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<p>A reason to do a 3/2 is if he wants to take a lot of additional courses or major in a liberal arts subject (humanities, social studies, science) in addition to engineering, where the schedule of a typical 4-year engineering degree program contains insufficient schedule space. But that must be balanced against the questions listed above.</p>
<p>Notre Dame does have more different engineering majors than Portland.</p>
<p>Notre Dame: aerospace, chemical, civil, computer, computer science, electrical, mechanical
Portland: civil, computer science, electrical, mechanical</p>
<p>Was he also accepted to Notre Dame as a regular engineering student?</p>
<p>He never applied to Notre Dame. He did apply and get into Santa Clara and Gonzaga engineering schools in addition to Portland and Stonehill. Great questions to think about… Transfer is guaranteed based on GPA but definitely need to research questions 2 and 3. Appreciate the feedback from both of you… Definitely should help him in reaching the best decision for him, and better understand the risks and rewards of both. I do think it would be tough to transfer what would normally be your senior year. But he is also the type of kid who would not be afraid to start over either and unlikely to settle for something just because it is more comfortable. More worried about question 4 - what if he transfers and doesn’t like the engineering courses. He would have to be very sure first… Lots to think about…</p>
<p>If his interest is computer or electrical engineering, Santa Clara’s location in Silicon Valley may be of interest when it comes time for internship and post-graduation job recruiting.</p>
<p>Internships may be another issue when doing a 3/2 plan – engineering employers won’t be visiting the “3” school looking for potential interns, and may give applicants from such schools less priority due to not having taken any engineering courses. For students planning on graduate school in engineering, the less time to get into undergraduate research may also be a consideration. Of course, this is not a complete roadblock, since many students transferring to engineering schools as juniors from community colleges do manage to find internship or research experience, later getting good post-graduation jobs or going to graduate schools.</p>
<p>Going through Stonehill’s course catalog, it appears that they do have some sophomore level engineering courses (listed as Physics 325, 420, 425). They also have a decent selection of computer science courses (though not as many as the bigger in computer science schools), so if he chooses not to transfer, he can theoretically stay and major in computer science. But math and physics course offerings for those majoring in those subjects appear to be somewhat limited if he chooses to stay and major in those subjects. One other thing to be aware of is that many of these courses are offered only once every two years.</p>
<p>[Course</a> Descriptions - Stonehill College - acalog ACMS?](<a href=“Course Descriptions - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™”>Course Descriptions - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™)</p>
<p>But you do think there are enough courses at Stonehill he can try as a sophomore to decide if he likes engineering enough to risk making the transfer to Notre Dame? My guess is if he doesn’t like them he would probably major in something else entirely and not transfer. I have a liberal arts background and obviously don’t know anything about engineering.</p>
<p>Which type of engineering is he interested in?
What non-engineering liberal arts (including science) subjects is he interested in?</p>
<p>It looks like they have specific course recommendations for 3/2 programs, including recommendations of specific majors at Stonehill:</p>
<p>[Program:</a> Chemistry, BA./Chemical Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - acalog ACMS?](<a href=“Program: Chemistry, BA./Chemical Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™”>Program: Chemistry, BA./Chemical Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™)
[Program:</a> Computer Science, B.A./Computer Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - acalog ACMS?](<a href=“Program: Computer Science, B.A./Computer Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™”>Program: Computer Science, B.A./Computer Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™)
[Program:</a> Physics, B.A./Aerospace Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - acalog ACMS?](<a href=“Program: Physics, B.A./Aerospace Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™”>Program: Physics, B.A./Aerospace Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™)
[Program:</a> Physics, B.A./Civil Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - acalog ACMS?](<a href=“Program: Physics, B.A./Civil Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™”>Program: Physics, B.A./Civil Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™)
[Program:</a> Physics, B.A./Electrical Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - acalog ACMS?](<a href=“Program: Physics, B.A./Electrical Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™”>Program: Physics, B.A./Electrical Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™)
[Program:</a> Physics, B.A./Mechanical Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - acalog ACMS?](<a href=“Program: Physics, B.A./Mechanical Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™”>Program: Physics, B.A./Mechanical Engineering, B.S. Dual Degree - Stonehill College - Acalog ACMS™)</p>
<p>If the majors at Stonehill are required (i.e. you cannot do, for example, a BA in Economics or History at Stonehill while taking math, physics, etc. to prepare for a BS in engineering at Notre Dame), that can make the 3/2 program less attractive if the intent is to complete some other major besides the listed ones at Stonehill.</p>
<p>He honestly doesn’t know. He excels in math, and prefers the physical sciences (chemistry and physics) to biology, which seemed to point him toward an engineering major even though he is undecided about which one. He also really enjoyed psychology and some of his social studies/history type classes but not so much traditional english/literature type subjects. When visiting colleges, admissions recommended he initially apply to engineering schools since it is easier to transfer out than transfer in. He is the type of kid very committed to social justice (thus the Holy Cross and Jesuit Colleges he applied to), and I could even see him as a math teacher somewhere if not an engineer. Is it doable to possibly double major in psych and math or physics as an undergrad, and then go on to study engineering in graduate school, or do you have to have some kind of an engineering undergraduate degree to even get into engineering graduate school?</p>
<p>One more thing to think about - he will also be participating in varsity athletics at whichever school he ends up attending.</p>
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<p>In general, it is best to have a bachelor’s degree in the same or closely related* branch of engineering if one wants to do graduate study. It can be done from something like physics if the student had carefully selected in and out of major electives (perhaps including junior and senior level engineering courses) tailored to preparing for graduate study in engineering. From math, it is likely that computer science and industrial engineering are the most likely possibilities.</p>
<ul>
<li>e.g. mechanical to aerospace, electrical to/from computer in computer architecture</li>
</ul>
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<p>He may want to check the time commitment of the sport. Also, the different schools have different levels of competitiveness. Notre Dame, Portland, and Santa Clara are all in NCAA Division I, but Stonehill is in NCAA Division II.</p>
<p>Note that Santa Clara is on the quarter system, which may result in different amounts of overlap between the sports season and the academic calendar. It may be desirable to choose a school where there is less overlap between the sports season and the academic calendar (e.g. football season will overlap half of the academic year at a semester school, but only a third of the academic year at a quarter school).</p>
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Alarm bells here. First off, an aptitude for math and science means nothing about whether he’d want to work in engineering. He really ought to talk to a couple of engineers (hopefully you and your friends know some) to get an idea of what the day-to-day life of an engineer is like, what the career path entails, etc. Its nothing like the classroom training to enter the field, which emphasizes the theory needed; on the job it is application which is significantly different even though it is grounded in the theory.</p>
<p>Mikemac: Another very good point. I just read him everybody’s postings including yours, and we agree he definitely needs to talk to some real life engineers to learn more about it. The only thing I am sure of right now is math is his favorite subject, so I can definitely see him majoring in math wherever he ends up - maybe combining that with an education degree might be a great option for him if he decides against engineering.</p>
<p>If majoring in math is a possibility, take a look at each school’s math course offerings to ensure that it has sufficient offerings to keep him interested. Use the larger universities with good math departments as a basis for comparison. Typical math major courses at the junior and senior level include real analysis, complex analysis, abstract algebra, advanced linear algebra, geometry, set theory, logic, numerical analysis, ordinary and partial differential equations, history of math, and various applied areas like cryptography, computability, mathematical economics, quantum mechanics, etc… Statistics and computer science may be their own departments, but are sometimes combined with the math department in smaller schools.</p>
<p>If he is more than a year advanced (i.e. will have taken college math courses beyond the calculus BC level while still in high school), consider schools which have a good graduate program in math.</p>
<p>One more bit of advice. It is unfortunate that with engineering you need to know in HS that’s what you want to do, since entering an engineering program presents a challenge even if you decide to do so while an undergrad. </p>
<p>Reading a bit between the lines, though, it sounds as though you and your son are trying to make a career decision now. For engineering you probably need to do so, but if not then its something that doesn’t need to be crystallized right away. The first 2 or so years of college can be spent exploring career ideas, discovering interests, etc. instead of having to know going in what you want to do. Most colleges have a decent career center that can help students with this, have alums in that will talk to current undergrads about their career, host workshops, etc. The danger a lot of kids run into is they don’t think about it until senior year, but if someone works steadily at exploring careers all thru college I think they can find a good fit. There are lots of books about career discovery; one focusing on blending interests in college with real-world preparation is “Major in Success” by Combs</p>
<p>So just to throw a few ideas out off the top of my head, given an interest in science and math he could certainly become a teacher but there are lots of other fields out there. Putting an emphasis on math might suggest things such as an actuary or accountant, a market researcher, finance, etc depending on how much people interaction he wants. There are lots of areas where math aptitude is needed, these are just a few quick examples. If he has an artistic bent then perhaps something like architecture would interest him. Focusing more on the sciences might suggest patent law, technical marketing, etc.</p>
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<p>A student who starts in engineering can usually switch to math or physics pretty easily, even after 3 or 4 semesters. Some humanities and social studies majors which do not have long prerequisite sequences can be switched to easily also (especially if a freshman year breadth requirement course were used for a course in that subject).</p>
<p>A student who explores in the first two years needs to be careful to take the needed prerequisites in time for any major that s/he might declare, in order to avoid accidentally shutting himself/herself out of some potentially interesting major. For example, switching into engineering or physics after a few semesters is likely to result in delayed graduation if the student has not been taking math and physics courses.</p>
<p>We really appreciate the great advice Mikemac and UCBalumnus. He is going to be shadowing very soon with a mechanical engineer who is also going to take him around to introduce him to other specialties at his company (other types of engineering, finance, manufacturing, etc…), which will give him a little more real world insight. He is definitely not ready to pick a career yet, but if engineering is a possibility, he wants to take all the requisite math and physics relatively early on (which he would still probably want to take even if he doesn’t ultimately choose engineering). He is truly an outgoing people person, which should serve him well in whatever career he ends up choosing.</p>