Stoners, Drugs and High School

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What do you mean by a self-help manual for treatment of depression?</p>

<p>What would be the advice in this manual?

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<p>It would show all of the approaches in treating depression by therapy. Why constrain therapy strategies to therapists? (who will oftentimes only go with one therapy strategy)? It would also document studies showing the placebo effect wrt therapy (just talking about it with someone helps). </p>

<p>Many people are rather ignorant of such strategies, however, and still continue with self-defeating thoughts. </p>

<p>Now, maybe such books do exist. I'm probably sure that they do (after all - such books do exist for disorders like ADD). On the other hand, the veracity of the claims addressed in such books does have tremendous variance. A lot of therapies designed to "treat" ADD or autism are BS. It would help if some organization could at least help point out the therapies addressed in self-help books that are BS and the ones that are not BS.</p>

<p>Now - what we do know is that there are online support forums for mental illnesses. <a href="http://aspiesforfreedom.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://aspiesforfreedom.com&lt;/a>, <a href="http://www.addforums.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.addforums.com&lt;/a>, <a href="http://www.crazymeds.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.crazymeds.org&lt;/a>, etc. There are plenty of ones for depression as well. Now - the question is - how reliable are them? It depends on what they advise. Obviously most people on those forums are laypeople who should not be dispensing out medical advice. On the other hand - some of the people on such forums are clearly dissatisfied with the standard treatment procedures. </p>

<h1>There is some backlash against the massive prescription of antidepressants (there's a book published on this). The question is - is this backlash justified?</h1>

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As far as people reading research and self-prescribing, it is far better to find some research that you think pertains to your case and take it to your physician to discuss. </p>

<p>Obviously, physicians can't read all of the journals that are published. Research does not talk about all of the pros and cons, so it would be a mistake for a lay person to decide on self-treatment based on personal readings. </p>

<p>If you can't talk about it with a physician, it is probably not a legitimate use of the drug.

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<p>While research does not mention the pros or cons - the doctors often do not mention them either (they often just tell the patient "well here's one drug, go try it out for several weeks, report back with me in three weeks"). It can take several weeks to set up an appointment. And those several weeks can feel too long for someone with a mental illness. Especially one like depression (where it takes months for one to find a drug that "works"). Now, there's now research that shows that ketamine can alleviate the symptoms of depression for a week or two (and almost instantaneously). The question is - are doctors willing to prescribe ketamine soon after the publication of the research? When the person is extremely desperate? It's difficult to say. But the individual wants a quick and effective treatment, and could potentially commit suicide without such a quick and effective treatment. On the other hand, his self-prescriptions could also lead him into ruin. This probably constitutes the majority of self-help cases (in fact - the long waiting times are precisely the reasons why so many people resort to medicating themselves for ADD and depression).</p>

<p>Finally - we have to note that ADD and depression are traits along a continuum. ADD, for example, is a trait that has undergone selective advantage in a few populations in the past (source: Late June article of <a href="http://www.gnxp.com)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gnxp.com)&lt;/a>. However, it is clearly unadvantageous to many people in the modern age. The problem is - what about the person who is extremely distractible but who yet does not qualify for a diagnosis of ADD? What is he to do? He loves math, but does not have the attention span to pursue it effectively. Some people, of course, are able to get prescriptions through their doctors just for this reason (Paul Erdos was one - though he merely wanted to enhance performance). But some people are not. </p>

<p>ADD isn't a very well-defined illness. Since ADD tendencies tend to lie along a continuum - there is no fine distinction between ADD and not-ADD. Furthermore, people just along the line (mildly ADD, perhaps) might function well on day-to-day activities, but may be impaired when working on, say, university coursework.</p>

<p>I've personally seen the diagnostic criteria for mental illnesses. They rely HUGELY on anecdotal evidence. They're not precise. Hence why people who don't need amphetamines are prescribed amphetamines and why people who could do better with them are prescribed with them.</p>

<p>The issue is that amphetamines can help improve GPA irrespective of whether one has ADD or not. And even if one doesn't have ADD - well - the fact that they improve GPA mean that his attention span is hurting his GPA, so the amphetamines still help him.</p>

<p>The problem, of course, is that anyone can feign low attention span and abuse those drugs. This is a difficult issue in itself. All we can say is that some people are sufficiently desperate enough to acquire the drugs to help them with studying - such that they acquire them illegally. </p>

<p>Now, this is purely my opinion, but I do believe that "studying more" is a rationale in itself for getting a prescription for modafinil per se (modafinil is known for its mild side effects - alas it is Schedule IV just because it induces euphoria in a small number of cases). One person told the doctor that he needed it to cram for exams - and the doctor prescribed modafinil to him (he asked an expert if there was any good reason not to prescribe modafinil - there wasn't any). Now, some doctors are not willing to prescribe modafinil. Some are.</p>

<p>It wouldn't be such an issue if modafinil wasn't a controlled substance. But it is. I've read the research pertaining to it - there are no fatalities associated with modafinil - and the listed side effects on the FDA package inset are very light. </p>

<p>Is it fair? If the person wants to study more, by all means let him study more.</p>

<p>==
In any case - self-medication is done frequently enough to warrant mention in research journals. On average, it does more harm than good (however, there is variance in the group). On the other hand - self-medication is going to happen because people are desperate and because the traditional means of delivery are not perfect. The risks of a criminal record are not particularly high wrt acquiring drugs because both buyer and lender have incentives to keep the transactions as secret as possible.</p>

<p>Anyhow, I tried to get a modafinil prescription. The psychiatrist's rationale against prescribing it? that he prescribed it along with a number of other drugs, and the person died of a heart attack. the problem with that - is precisely that I intended only to acquire modafinil, whereas the patient died due to taking several drugs at once. </p>

<p>That is the type of conclusion that health care practitioners make - that students can see are fallacious merely by reading research ON the drugs (that the practitioners don't see). </p>

<p>The thing is - he was willing to prescribe amphetamines and modafinil IF THERE WERE NO RISKS INVOLVED. And there was a study done on death rates of those under amphetamines, and those who acquired amphetamines. There was no statistically significant difference in the death rates between the two groups. The rationale he gave me for not prescribing amphetamines to me: there was a patient who died while taking amphetamines while under his supervision. But that can easily be attributed to statistical noise.</p>

<p>Modafinil, in fact, is known for its lack of significant side effects. Now, side effects are probably qualitative - but modafinil's side effects are less severe than those of SSRI antidepressants (there is a FDA black box warning for antidepressants, there isn't one for modafinil) - and he DID prescribe SSRI antidepressants for me. &lt;/p>

<p>Well I'm going into 9th grade next year. Apparently there's Pot Fridays where everyone goes into the woods in between the supermarket and the middle school and smokes. My older brother smokes. I don't want to smoke pot in hs but probably will a few times. </p>

<p>I get drunk with my friends a lot, that's fun.</p>

<p>Anyhow - I think one issue with the health care profession is that a lot of people who need help aren't getting help (this is quite frequent). The other issue, though, is that wrt to psychological concerns - the patient and the doctor might have different goals - and this may lead to distrust of the institution, causing certain individuals to self-medicate themselves. Now, perhaps the goals of the individual can be misguided (and they often are). But the individual will often think that his goals are not misguided - and sometimes the individual is true on that.</p>

<p>One of the different goals is that the patient may want a quick solution to depression - while the doctor realizes that such a quick solution is inherently risky. Depressed individuals, however, are often willing to take risks. Most of the time, the depressed patients probably lose out of those risks - however - sometimes they actually benefit from the risks (this could be due to the placebo effect wrt faster treatments).</p>

<p>Another case of course is that some patients with personality disorders will naturally have goals that do not coincide with those of society.</p>

<p>And then another case is the one described above: there are relatively safe drugs that allow one to study harder and longer.</p>

<p>I've drank before and I tried pot a few days ago for the first time. I didnt get high though, I didnt inhale right i guess, lol. I'm really not opposed to alcohol and pot, etc. I believe they can be gateway drugs, but if you resist the temptation to upgrade to hardcore drugs, then they're really not that harmful.</p>

<p>"Well I'm going into 9th grade next year... I get drunk with my friends a lot, that's fun."</p>

<p>Wow. I, too, am a rising freshman and I've never even heard of anyone drinking. Maybe I'm just totally out of it, but that seems so young.</p>

<p>mj93- you must be with a good crowd of friends.</p>

<p>^^ That's how I was. When I went to my first party freshman year, I freaked out because the parents were home and didn't mind that kids were drunk and having sex in closets. I don't really go to any parties like that anymore. My friends have parties with only 20 people at most and we sit around talking. But at my school kids are rich enough that if they get caught with drugs or alcohol, their parents are able to pay someone so no one ever finds out.</p>

<p>People who smoke pot are boring. </p>

<p>If you don't believe me, hang out w/ some of your stoner friends when they aren't stoned. </p>

<p>Who needs social skills when you have weed......</p>

<p>^um, in my experience that's not true, but I see you enjoy making generalizations. :)</p>

<p>I'm not really into downers like alcohol and pot, but cocaine is nice on occasion (never rock though lol).</p>

<p>im sort of a stoner. i smoke weed REALLY often. like... at least three times a week. i still manage really good grades and whatnot, and i dont do other drugs other than taking adderall on a rare occasion as a study tool. i dont really think its that bad, you just have to control yourself. like if you smoke on a school night, you WILL be disgustingly tired in the morning. thats why stoners miss so much school and their grades go downhill. you just have to suck it up and get up and go anyway. everyone at my school smokes though, and my brother was a stoner. so i guess i inherited it.</p>

<p>weed just has a bad rep for god knows what reason. its not even that bad for you, cigarettes are worse. ive met doctors who admitted it to me. its also not even that bad as a "mind altering substance" because so it alcohol, which is legal. i think weed should be legalized because if someone wants to smoke some dank they'll smoke it, regardless of whether or not its legal. so its not like hordes of people will start smoking once it became legal.</p>

<p>people dont udnerstand why other kids smoke weed until they do it themselves. i thought the same thing too; i thought weed was retarded but i started smoking and understood. its just really fun. but i really do think it is a gateway drug. especially for people who are kind of inexperienced and dont hang with those sorts of crowds often. i've seen enough tweeks and coked out chicks in my day to steer clear of that garbage.</p>

<p>I've done extensive studies on Marijuana and all and it's really not that bad. First however, to the kid ging into 9th grade and gets drunk with your brother, trust me you're far ahead of the game in a good way. THe last thing you need to be doing is getting *<strong><em>faced for the first time in a highschool party and getting into a fight with someone or *</em></strong>ing yourself without realizing it. Trust me, I've seen it and in our drunken state, we will only laugh at you.</p>

<p>Now, I'm not going to make any understatements, if you think natalie is a stoner, then I'm just a pot leaf. I smoke generally 3-4 times a day, sometimes more of the situation calls for it. I definitely DON'T have any social issues, as i'm probably one of the most popular people in my school. I've been to a ton of parties and all sober just fine, and I don't become so clammed it guy. I too thought the same thing as natalie, and therein lies how kids get caught up into drugs. When you tell kids that this thing is "sooooo bad" yet they have friends making good grades (**** i got nearly a 2k on the SAT not feeling too bad from the night before) and succeeding, they are going to wonder about the discrepancies between what you say and what truly is reality.</p>

<p>I no longer get tired in the morning either natlie, that will wear off eventually. In fact, I wake up feeling energized lol.</p>

<p>Pot is possibly the best natural remedy on this earth. When I'm sick and cant sleep, I'll let up a blunt and pass right out. When I'm stressed? Light it up. When I'm bored with friends? Light it up and go play some basketball or just chill with some girls. Before work? Light it up. </p>

<p>I very rarely do it before school though, not because I can't perform but because I don't mix those lives together too often, though an L at lunch often isn't too bad.</p>

<p>All that you have to realize, is that your mind is under your control. You aren't going to get any dumber (THC can't kill brain cells. the only brain cells you lose is from smoke inhalation and holding your breath), you certainly aren't going to go sterile (who believed that?), it doesn't complicate pregnancy risks (if you don't smoke it), you can avoid all types of cancer as long as you don't smoke it (Vaporize it, use a bubbler, eat it, drink it, etc), and certain studies have been made saying that THC has the potential (in lab rats it did) to increase the rate of aging in dying cells (summat of the sorts), killing off many cells that would go on to form tumors. That's the gist of it, I didn't read the entire medical journal on that though.</p>

<p>I can continue if anyone else wants to spread the propaganda :)</p>

<p>ahhhh good man! glad to see im not the only person who smokes regularly. i'd smoke every day if i didnt have weakass connections that flake on me 24.7.</p>

<p>but holy ****. if i smoked that often i wouldnt be able to do anything lmao. im a lightweight, half a 10 gets me so baked its risky to go into public because its possible i'll break into a fit of laughing over nothing. i almost got jumped once because this guy was telling me how he "rose up" out of the hood and became something (he was high too) and i thoguht it was incredibly funny since it was the sort of soliloquy you might hear from like, 50 cent or something haha.</p>

<p>anyway, weed gets way too bad of a rap. if you become educated not only about weed, but many other drugs and learn to stay away from those hard ones, there is nothing wrong with weed. its less addictive than alcohol and easy to control in your life. it just takes self control. one of the main reasons it became outlawed in america is because of its nickname as the "gateway drug."</p>

<p>so yeahhhh. its mostly kids who got browbeaten by their rents to stay away from drugs who preach, or their adult counterparts but who in high likelyhood smoked a little reefer in their day too.</p>

<p>Last year at my school, a student got expelled for offering pot to his swim coach. What an idiot! Also, a guy at my school got expelled for burning a big p**** on our soccer field. It was there for the whole year, too. Everyone laughed at it but it was his 3rd strike so he got expelled. Most people at my school drink/smoke but don't get caught unless the do something really stupid. I try to stay away from that though.</p>

<p>Smoking marijuana makes you see things you would never see without smoking. You see things clear and you understand your problems. You feel like you know what your friends are thinking about.
You feel like you' re light and your brain seems like squishing.</p>

<p>mm..i didn't like it too much..and it took three times for it to actually work.</p>