Stop playing the race card

Chance Me / Match Me!
201

<p>Inaina-</p>

<p>A test prep company's classroom course. It did help, but my score was not good enough for my first choice school. Universities claim that your GPA and ACT/SAT scores are not the only things they take into consideration, however I believe that those two will make or break your entrance. If I wasn't in a time constraint to apply to that university, I would've tried scoring 5 more points to meet the university's average score.</p>

<p>I know for a fact that the ACTs put a dent in my app. It's unfortunate, but that's life.</p>

202

<p>AA is NOT enough to make up for the black 345 yr experience, with 245 involving slavery, 100 with legalized discrimination, and 30 anything else. those 30 yrs, btw, were not very productive. AA is not enough to make up for centuries of oppression and discrimination</p>

203

<p>Oromia,</p>

<p>Few Americans would refuse to acknowledge that Blacks have been grossly mistreated in our nation's past.</p>

<p>That doesn't change the fact that we live in the present.</p>

<p>You seem to be saying that equal treatment is not enough, that you are entitled to preferential treatment as a sort of "make up" for previous sins.</p>

<p>As the redemptive liberals age and retire, you'll find fewer persons who are willing to grant you the license of a preference. But, you'll find plenty of people who are firmly committed to equal treatment.</p>

<p>It's all up to you. Maybe you don't mind having your achievements degraded by someone who says you'll get in by virtue of your skin color.</p>

<p>I speak for myself when I say that it is wrong to dismiss a student's merits just because he's part of a certain ethnic group.</p>

204

<p>"You seem to be saying that equal treatment is not enough, that you are entitled to preferential treatment as a sort of "make up" for previous sins."</p>

<p>if previous sins influence your economical standing currently, and hence your performance and academic standings, then yea, they should be entitled "preferential treatment" (a better description would probably be a "level playing field").</p>

205

<p>some of you people need to get a reality check. don't blame minorities for you not getting into colleges. accept the fact that the admissions office rejected you if that was the case. i mean seriously, its not like every admissions officer holds one application in their hand of a black student and anoher application in their hand of a white student and say oh i want the black student. that's not how it goes. the admissions office gives each application a thorough and fair review. if you dont agree with affirmative action, then you should waste your time trying to do something about it. in plus, i myself agree with affirmative action. if a white and a black have the same exact stats, and the school is predominantly white, why would it make sense to admit the white student? they would need another black student on campus. now this is only if they had the same exact stats. i dont agree however that a white who has higher stats should get rejected over a black with lower stats. but u also need to take into account, extracurriculars are apart of stats and some of you ppl are forgetting that. maybe if ur white and didnt get in over a black its because they had better ecs than u, or the fact that maybe admissions ppl really are being prejudice. if thast the case, deal with it, u cant change the internal feeling another human being has. doesnt mean its fair, but there is nothing u can do....or there is one more possibility, you really just arent good enough as you thought u were for the school....accept it....or if u were good enough, it may be because they have a freaking LIMIT on how many ppl they can take....they have to draw the line somewhere. and as far as ppl posting chances based off of minoritiy status, stop geting mad because that is relevant information whether you want to accept it or not.</p>

206

<p>fab...</p>

<p>you are absolutely right...we do live in the present, not the past...but, NEWSFLASH, just because legalized slavery and discrimination are gone does not mean that discrimination, intimidation, racism, prejudice, and other forms of discrimination do not exist. you do realize that in higher education most campuses were off-limits to black and Latino students less than 50 years ago, right? you may only be 17, but believe me, less than 50 years ago is not a long time. it is totally naive to think that a race of students can suddenly "catch up" within one generation. </p>

<p>prospectiveMD - "the ultimate irony is how African Americans were once fighting against "discrimination" and are now being rewarded as a result of it." ARE YOU KIDDING ME?????? rewarded how? by still being discriminated against in our schools? by still be consistently tracked in lower curriculums EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE THE ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENTS TO BE TRACKED HIGHER like their white and Asian peers? by still being told that they shouldn't try to achieve as much as their white and Asian peers? this crap happens all over the country, TODAY, to black and Latino students. get a clue.</p>

207

<p>"rewarded how??"</p>

<p>by being given advantages in the college admissions process...</p>

<p>giving one group an advantage over the others does not do anything but deepen the divide between races when we should be offering equal oppurtunity...if its financial inequality that we are trying to solve, then make that the criteria for "affirmative action" - then poor white/asian people can be assisted as well</p>

<p>also, adofficer, wheres your citation for them being tracked into lower curriculums?</p>

208

<p>CynicalBliss,</p>

<p>Are you suggesting that socioeconomics affects performance and academics more so than race?</p>

<p>I believe that if affirmative action must be used, then it should focus on socioeconomics as opposed to skin color. Such a policy is more inclusive as poverty does not discriminate; it can affect anyone, anywhere, at any time.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, as AdOfficer points out, this doesn't result in "diversity" as colleges define it. According to Bowen and Rudenstine, Several studies have shown that there are simply very few minority candidates for admission to academically selective institutions who are both poor and academically qualified.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.mellon.org/news_publications/annual-reports-essays/presidents-essays/race-sensitive-admissions-back-to-basics/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mellon.org/news_publications/annual-reports-essays/presidents-essays/race-sensitive-admissions-back-to-basics/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Level playing field?" And, exactly what does that mean?</p>

<p>Do you mean offering mentoring and tutoring? Or do you mean treating applicants as if they had 230 extra SAT points?</p>

<p>Level playing field, like diversity and inclusion, is a fluff phrase. There is no substance inside.</p>

209

<p>AdOfficer,</p>

<p>Discrimination, intimidation, racism, and prejudice do still exist.</p>

<p>I believe that by continuing to use race as a factor, we will not reduce discrimination, intimidation, racism, and prejudice.</p>

<p>Historically, people were denied chances and opportunities because they looked different. Segregation was artificially imposed. It was possible that a Black student who lived two blocks away from a public school could be denied enrollment there just because of his skin color. Segregation wasn't natural; it was forced.</p>

<p>There is a parallel today. Diversity as I define it can occur by itself. Each individual is inherently unique. He will always bring a different viewpoint to a campus. "Diversity" as liberal American higher education defines it, on the other hand, is forced. We need only look at the changes that occured in the UC system following Proposition 209. Once race was removed, the composition of the undergraduate student body dramatically changed. Clearly, race was being used to a greater extent than previously claimed.</p>

<p>But, there is a difference. Now, no one is denied the opportunity to attend a public school because of one's race. Students are not barred from taking the SAT or playing in their local baseball league because they look different. It is illegal to do so.</p>

<p>Yes, I do realize that most American universities did not allow Black and Hispanic students to enroll a mere half century ago. That does not happen anymore.</p>

<p>I disagree that it is naive to think that a historically oppressed race can "catch up" within two generations. If done correctly, it is very possible. Sadly, it was not done correctly.</p>

<p>These persons were denied the chance to compete on a single standard. They were constantly babied by redemptive liberals. A dignified culture that never picked the "easy way out" was shattered. It's not too late to reverse this, though.</p>

210

<p>yea sux for you guys.</p>

<p>im black and going to the big H.</p>

<p>:D</p>

211

<p>|| source ||,</p>

<p>Congratulations on your acceptance to Howard!</p>

<p>Hopefully, you didn't have to face one of those "you're Black, so you're in" comments.</p>

212

<p>Just a modern, contemporary;) confirmation to AdOfficer's reply #206, I believe. </p>

<p>Race still brings with it rejection & stereotype, including in academic & intellectual settings. I was in the public library just last week with one of my students. This is one of my best students. In fact it appears she may be gifted, based on several aspects of her learning style. Well behaved, delightful, and articulate, she is a privilege to teach. Her mother is bright, sharp, educated & utterly focused on education. The Mom's father used to teach at Stanford. Daughter & Mom happen to be black. Understand that we were in a suburban public library within a highly integrated, multi-ethnic & multiculturally diverse region of the country. (Probably the second most diverse.) The only way one could avoid encountering non-whites would be to stay in your house all day & hope that your groceries & supplies were delivered also by whites. (Not likely.)</p>

<p>While I was instructing her at the Info Desk on how to get help for something, a white mother was standing near us with her son. I'm telling you, you could have sworn this was a flashback to the early '50's when suburbs really were 99% white. The woman looked on my student (also impeccable in her appearance) as if she were diseased, and contagious. She kept interrupting her own tasks at the Info Desk with her son to shoot suspicious & disapproving glares at this harmless 9-year-old. She almost couldn't concentrate on her son's needs, so distracted she was with the mere innocent <em>presence</em> of this child. Fortunately, my student was so absorbed doing something for me that she really did not see the woman's face or body language whatsoever, & naturally I made sure that it stayed that way, & that we left the Desk a.s.a.p. </p>

<p>Mind you, this was not a street in an all-white neighborhood, nor was this person menacing looking or behaving. This was a flippin' <em>library</em>, open to the <em>public</em>, with universal access, and no special "back door" for "coloreds." Yet the body language of this woman screamed out, You Have No Right To Be Here. (Or at least, You Must Be Up To Something Suspicious; couldn't have an intellectual or academic interest, like the rest of us.) P.S. Other URM's & nationalities (of diff. backgrounds than my student) were similarly coming in & out of this library.</p>

<p>My two private responses were shock (first), then anger. And I was not even the target. Guaranteed that if by some miracle this young student has not already experienced similar marginalization, she will experience it before too long. People who have not experienced this seem to have a hard time imagining the cumulative discouragement of repeated messages that say, "You don't belong in settings related to learning."</p>

213

<p>The paradox used by supporters of affirmative action.</p>

<p>The only way to end discrimination based on race is to use race as a factor.</p>

<p>Fires aren't put out with more fire. Race-based discrimination doesn't end by continuing to claim that race is so important that it should not be ignored.</p>

214

<p>"Race-based discrimination doesn't end by continuing to claim that race is so important that it should not be ignored."</p>

<p>fabrizio,
Only you claim that AA as one factor in college admissions is an attempt to "end [societal] race-based discrimination." Only you. You set up that very artificial Straw Man thesis, associate that fabrication with those who support AA, then argue against it. You are arguing with yourself. I am not fooled that you are arguing against what really happens on an admissions committee, as you are not. </p>

<p>I have never heard "ending race-based discrimination (in society at large)" as a rationale for college admissions AA. Never. I have heard & read (directly from those in admissions, not from CC students making suppositions or wild generalizations) that race is one of the "challenge" or "opportunity" factors. So is economics. You are not going to be admitted to a top U just because, or mainly because, you're poor. Being poor (any race) is a disadvantage, but you'd better have pushed against that disadvantage even to be considered. Hundreds of poor applicants & hundreds of students who are URM's apply every year to top colleges, but most do not make it past Round One. </p>

<p>Admissions committees are not so idealistic or naive to believe that societal attitudes will change as a result of AA at their own college. To attempt that Herculean task would be to delude themselves. They have their hands full as it is. Their focus is on their own business: the learning environment & those prepared to take advantage of that learning environment, based on the student's academic achievement & demonstrated potential & demonstrated motivation. The reach of positive societal consequences is out of the control of the college.</p>

215

<p>epiphany,</p>

<p>What was the point of your story? The fact that discrimination still exists and thus modern affirmative action is necessary?</p>

<p>I apologize if you believe that affirmative action should be used to "correct" for current race-based discrimination. A correction is not an end.</p>

<p>Yes, being of a certain color or socioeconomic class will not result in an automatic admission. Unfortunately, we still get comments like the OP described. An easy way to eliminate these remarks is to end affirmative action in its current state.</p>

<p>Questions like</p>

<ol>
<li>"My grandmother is a citizen of Colombia, but she emigrated there from Poland. Do I count as Hispanic?"</li>
<li>"Will my being Black help?"</li>
<li>"Am I an under-represented minority?"</li>
</ol>

<p>will be a thing of the past. Even well-intentioned questions like "I am of mixed Asian and African heritage. I have always struggled with identify. Should I check Asian or Black?" will no longer need to be asked. Of course, since they won't be asked, idiotic responses like "Stop trying to work the system. You're Asian, get over it!" will cease to exist.</p>

216

<p>"What was the point of your story?"</p>

<p>Answer:<br>
(1) To address directly your many previous statements that the main purpose of AA is supposedly to right previous wrongs, particularly historical ones, such as slavery & its after-effects. One of the assumptions imbedded in your many previous statements about race, society, & opportunity, is that URM's start the college process on an even playing field with non-URM's. That assumption is emphasized by your repeated protests that black middle-class students get extra recognition, an "edge," what-have-you in the admissions process even though more <em>economically</em> advantaged than white or black students of poverty. I'm illustrating how race is a different factor, creating different kinds of obstacles than finances. This "story" is not from 1750, 1850, or 1950, but March 2007 C.E./A.D. (take your choice).</p>

<p>(2) To give a recent concrete example of the broad statements that AdOfficer has made on this & similar threads. </p>

<p>Regarding the other comments in your last post, yes, I have acknowledged in other posts on other threads that intermarriage will complexify & modify (but not obliterate) the issue of "challenges based on [presumably single] race or background." It may make for greater time consumed in committee, regarding evaluations of one mixed-background student vs. another mixed-background student with similar academic & e.c. assets. I also think that colleges will, and certainly should, modify the data-collection on their app. forms to allow for less limited choices & fuller elaboration by the applicant. I also think how a student identifies the group or groups he "belongs" to is as important as his actual origins.</p>

217

<p>I have some questions:</p>

<p>Don't colleges recruit athleters will less-than-absolutely-perfect academic records into their universities? And what of artists? Do they not try to take every facet of their personality into account in order create a student body of more than just the overachieving, one-minded, though academically elite mob? Of course race is still a factor. Race is still acknowledged, still creates differences (not even necessarily negative, but instead cultural differences). Then why shouldn't colleges take it into account for admissions?</p>

<p>The fact is, though it is just a BROAD generalization: Asians and Caucasians are VERY WELL represented in universities. They come from "better" backgrounds, go to "better" schools, are given opportunities that other candidates may not. They've brought their culture, their ideas. Now imagine you are University A, and want to show your students what the real world looks like. Is the real world all upper-class America? No. Yes, I agree that if there was a gap to close, universities should do it on the basis of economic need instead of race. But that's not the issue, else universities would be judging upon such a basis. The issue is to bring the well-roundedness the "worldliness" into the universities to make their students succeed. They've many Caucasians and Asians with high academic performance with many leftovers. They want more diversity. </p>

<p>Perhaps I'm wrong. Most likely my argument is flawed. But given what I've seen, it's not as if completely unqualified minorities are getting into schools that they would never have previously been considered for. Do what you may, it is a system that exists and will probably continue to exist for at least a few years to come.</p>

218

<p>jakor,
According to AdOfficer's comments both on this thread and on various Admissions Forum threads on topic of AA, race, etc., your tentatively phrased assertions (in question form) are correct.</p>

<p>Ditto for your observation that race is not exclusively or even mainly a "negative" factor, but is at least a neutral factor being considered. (A category of diversity among many categories of differences sought in a varied class.) So a black international may even have had many opportunities educationally & economically (more so than many U.S. blacks & even many U.S. whites & Asians), but is nevertheless of an underrepresented race for U.S. Elite U's. If not enough qualified U.S. blacks apply, this is why a U will often select a highly qualified Ethiopian or Island black than a similarly qualified over-represented white or East Asian student.</p>

219

<p>epiphany,</p>

<p>I do not believe that the main purpose of modern affirmative action is to right previous wrongs. However, I can justify that statement.</p>

<p>A dictionary.com search for affirmative action results in six definitions. I have no problems with the first one. If "the encouragement of increased representation of women and minority-group members, esp. in employment" were how affirmative action is practiced today, I would be happy. Sadly, this is a classical definition that is no longer in practice.</p>

<p>The second definition provides support for the statement in question. "A policy or a program that seeks to redress past discrimination through active measures to ensure equal opportunity, as in education and employment." I prefer the first definition, but this one is acceptable.</p>

<p>The third definition is almost identical to the second.</p>

<p>The last three definitions do not mention past sins.</p>

<p>So, of six definitions, two mention previous wrongs and four don't.</p>

<p>
[quote]

That assumption is emphasized by your repeated protests that black middle-class students get extra recognition, an "edge," what-have-you in the admissions process even though more <em>economically</em> advantaged than white or black students of poverty.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How can Black middle-class students be more economically disadvantaged than Black students in poverty?</p>

220

<p>A question to AdOfficer, Jakor, ...</p>

<p>...do you believe that each individual is inherently unique?</p>

<p>If so, then why do you fear a homogeneous hive-minded student body?</p>