Stop playing the race card

Chance Me / Match Me!
221

<p>I believe each individual's "uniqueness" is limited in the overall, that people learn their behaviors from that around them to create a different combination of traits, ideas, etc., but that no human being is originally individual. However, this is bordering my philosophical ideas that I do not believe are pertinent, so...</p>

<p>fabrizo, I understand the point of your question, however, you must admit that though individuals are "inherently unique", that the degree of their "uniqueness" from one another does vary. Colleges, I believe, want students with "uniquenesses" that are not similar, that are not from the same cultural heritage so that the students that graduate from these universities have a more diverse "uniqueness". Though I may just be rambling...</p>

<p>In regards to your question of my "fear" of a homogenous hive-mided student body, I personally do not work best in a group where most of the ideas are from a particular point of view (which I have often seen at school, etc.). I prefer a more diverse group so that I can view a situation from many angles and draw a conclusion to add to my own beliefs based upon those observations. If I went to a school with students from same/similar socioeconomic backgrounds and cultures, my mind would be kept with this provincial thinking. With more "diversity", I see more and understand more. That's the true heart of the matter, I suppose.</p>

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<p>re your last question,fabrizio (Post 219):</p>

<p>I said they were more <em>advantaged</em>, not more <em>disadvantaged</em>. (And that race, when an extreme of under-representation, sometimes trumps even economic disadvantage, esp. if a disadvantaged URM student is marginally qualified vs. a heavily qualified student from the same URM race. AdOfficer and other adreps have brought up this point, & the justification for it, in other posts & threads.)</p>

<p>Everything is weighed, balanced, evaluated with all the variations in mind. Depends on the strengths of individual student profiles & the various options the committee has in front of it in real time. Nothing is based on a formula. The person admitted this year might not have been admitted last yr, or next yr.</p>

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<p>epiphany,</p>

<p>My apologies.</p>

224

<p>no problem.</p>

225

<p>I don't think Affirmative Action is going anywhere anytime soon. </p>

<p>k-12 education is where most of the problem lies, IMO</p>

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<p>Ultima, even if there were true equality of opportunity AND equality of result in K-12 education, nationally (like now), ORM's would still be affected, because of the volume of high-quality applications just in general, nationwide. It would just mean that more (or all) URM's accepted would have GPA's, test scores, & e.c.'s equivalent to ORM applicants. In fact, it would make it more difficult for ORM's to be accepted because the U can & may increase its domestic URM enrollment if their academic product improves considerably. If U.S. K-12 education improves dramatically, the college applicants affected most may be internationals of minority representation. </p>

<p>U's in this country will probably always seek racial balance in admissions -- at least the private Elites will, but many others as well. I'm kind of surprised that many on CC are surprised by this, my reason being that private <em>high schools</em>, at least in major metro areas, similarly seek a diverse student body. For example, a secular private in my area states flat-out (and always has), that they seek a 1/3 representation in their school of URM's. They state that this proportion is approx. the racial diversity of the region, and that the school should thus reflect that. They're hardly taking their cues from HYPS; rather, you will find that independent privates have a commitment to diversity in their mission statements. And yet, like HYPS, they have stiff entrance requirements & will not admit students who cannot do the work. Many CC students attend privates. Their high schools don't admit & even "recruit" (or extend themselves) to URM's? I kind of doubt that.</p>

<p>Just editing the above: although they <em>seek</em> a 1/3 representation, they don't always get it. It's a goal, but not a quota. If they can't find that 1/3 who is qualified, they'll have a less than 1/3 representation, just as many Elites do now. But if & when that segment is competitive, they do get represented at such high schools.</p>

227

<p>well, i think the reason minorities get cut a break is because seeing an african american or hispanic handling their business is alot rarer than seeing a caucasian handling their business. i'm black, so i feel pretty confident about making that statement. my high school is something like 40 percent black, but i am the ONLY black person in 3 of my honors classes. in the 2 other honors classes, there are <em>gasp</em> 4 total. and my classes have about 30 people in them, typically. so yes, people of color are always going to get cut some slack until we start doing better.</p>

228

<p>the race card/AA will still be used for a long time to come. Blacks and Hispanics will benefit from it generally until their SES improves, and Asians will continue to be passed over for Whites in the Ivies, quasi-Ivies, and increasingly more top schools, and not even complain against it. </p>

<p>It's evil, but it's there to ensure equal opportunity for the disadvantaged, and that's the way it will be for some time.</p>

229

<p>Kah,</p>

<p>How can people of color ever improve their lot if they are constantly being told that mediocrity is acceptable?</p>

230

<p>fabrizio,
Isnt that the american dream? lol whatever i dont even know what i meant by that. Well, i believe this all started with affirmative action a while back. Not that im against it, but the fact that it allowed mediocre minorities to get precedence over qualified majorities (back then at least), and sadly the thought has carried.</p>

231

<p>what are u complaining about becker
it helps.</p>

<p>Even though it shouldnt.
IN many areas of the US it helps to not be white.</p>

<p>Im white</p>

<p>and i can say that one foul act against a white man could get me into a little legal trouble.</p>

<p>If i performed the same foul act to a black man,
ide be in much more trouble because i would likely be considered an act of raciscm.</p>

232

<p>The reason why race is a determining factor on whether or not you get into college is because it is statistically shown that minorities, for the most part, get worse grades than White people, with the exception of Asians. It is not to be offensive, but it is to equal out the playing field. Minorities generally have less money to work with so when it comes to education, they do not have the resources to get additional tutoring and school supplies. Most people that score well on the SATs do so because they go to very expensive classes. How about you stop playing the racist card? By accusing everyone of being ignorant, you are being ignorant yourself.</p>

233

<p>Hey, does different nationality count??</p>

234

<p>
[quote]

Minorities generally have less money to work with so when it comes to education, they do not have the resources to get additional tutoring and school supplies. Most people that score well on the SATs do so because they go to very expensive classes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Then, is the lackluster academic performance, for the most part, of so-called "under-represented" minorities the result of less money or their skin color?</p>

<p>If it is caused by economic disadvantage, then there's no point in preferentially treating certain races. Black is not a synonym for poor. If affirmative action must exist, then it should use socioeconomic standing as the criteria instead of race. Such a policy is in fact more exclusive as poverty does not discriminate. Unfortunately, the supporters of "inclusion" don't really care about that because this policy would also benefit poor Whites and Asians. Their train of thought is "If it doesn't benefit Bla-whoops, increase 'diversity', then it's not a good policy."</p>

<p>As Dr. Sowell has shown in his book, Affirmative Action Around The World, racial preferences have never worked ANYWHERE, including our country. People don't improve when they are told that lousy is good.</p>

235

<p>Remember that test scores and GPA's alone can't define one's application alone, that's what personal statements, EC's, and the rec's are for. This can help many people, including the URM's get in a highly ranked school though their numbers aren't quite there.</p>

<p>If we did have a race blind admissions policy, well that's still impossible because you will still see the kid's name. Surnames like Kim and Chang spell Asian, and surnames like Rodriguez and Santiago spell Latino. But if there were a truly race blind admissions policy (where you can't see people's names), there will be a LOT less Blacks and Hispanics in the Ivies, and a ton more Asians in their place. </p>

<p>I personally don't think Whites suffer from AA, unless there are very few Asians at the university. A school like Harvard wouldn't see a significant drop in Whites, if at all if they used a truly race blind policy, but a school like Vanderbilt could as Harvard has a very large Asian student body, and Vandy doesn't. The Whites' enrollment drop because of AA for the most part has passed.</p>

<p>To an extent, it's also based on the demographics of the applicants too. Whites in my opinion are more open to applying to a wide variety of reputable schools, while Asians tend to apply to only big research schools which are highly ranked, and they don't apply in droves to most (not all) Southern and Catholic schools which enjoy great reps. Blacks and Hispanics are probably closer to Whites' stance.</p>

<p>In short, my stance on AA at this time is that the Asians are used as an insurance policy to keep Whites and legacies (almost always White at most schools) in at the levels they have today. Of course universities will need to accept a certain amount of qualified Asians, but if there are a huge number of highly qualified Blacks and Hispanics in a given year to an Ivy or Quasi-Ivy, they can just reject the first 20 or however many Kims, Wongs, and Changs to make room for them and increase diversity and minimize if not eliminate the need to reject whites for the URM's, showing my "insurance concept". If we go to a good Southern or Catholic school (ie-Davidson, Washington & Lee, Notre Dame, Wake Forest) and this happened in a given year, then they would have to turn down Whites' apps for the URM's because they have few Asian students anyway, and not to the point where they can be insurance. If anything, they probably want more Asians, though probably not at Harvard's levels.</p>

<p>(debateaddict: yes, different nationality can help or hurt your admissions chances, if you're a minority that is. Among Hispanics, Cubans tend to get the least preference because at this time, Cuban Americans are rather affluent people as a whole (they moved out to American after Fidel Castro took over). Among Asians, being Chinese, Korean, or Indian is going to eliminate most, if not all of your AA benefits, even if you're from a low income family. Vietnamese, Hmong, Filipinos, and Cambodians tend to fare the best with AA among Asians because they aren't super-performing groups, but they are still rejected for Blacks and Hispanics. The Japanese Americans are closer to the Chinese and Koreans in terms of "performance", but have been dropping a little bit in the last 20 years or so, possibly because most if not many Japanese Americans are not the direct descendants of immigrants and are less paranoid about studying like Chinese and Koreans. A great amount college age Japanese Americans have to go back 3 or 4 generations to know who emigrated from Japan.)</p>

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<p>"The reason why race is a determining factor on whether or not you get into college is because it is statistically shown that minorities, for the most part, get worse grades than White people, with the exception of Asians. It is not to be offensive, but it is to equal out the playing field."</p>

<p>Adorable screen name. Inaccurate statement. Please search AdOfficer's posts for <em>University</em> policy as to the inclusion of race as a balance aspect in a widely diverse freshman class. Not CC student "policy," myth, urban legend, or what's "widely known." There have been hundreds of posts on this subject, on Admissions Forum, Parents Forum, elsewhere. Not going to repeat the institutional reasoning behind this. (I see you're fairly new to posting.)</p>

<p>They are not admitted "because they (supposedly) get worse grades." Students of all ethnic backgrounds are only admitted to any college if they can do the work -- even if that student is an athletic recruit. There is no value to a college in admitting a student who is likely to fail or drop out. It is an extremely poor investment for that college. And a college or U is just as interested in its "bottom line" as a bank is. "They" (URMs) are admitted only when they both add to the balance AND are an asset to the school in the way that all admitted students are selected for their non-racial assets as well. Plenty, plenty of URMs get rejected from Elite & 2nd-tier colleges every year in this country: their GPA's range widely, just as ORM's GPA's also range. URM's with GPA's from 3.1 to 3.8+ get rejected from Elite colleges every yr.; lots of them. It's just that you never hear about them, except when they post on CC. But admissions reps have verified that this is true.</p>

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<p>"Blacks and Hispanics are probably closer to Whites' stance."</p>

<p>??????
What exactly is meant by this statement?</p>

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<p>This thread is diversity at its finest... In a matter of days this thread has over 200 posts...you have everyone from white,black, asian, hispanic etc alll offering there own diverse opinion. Everyone is intergrating their cultural belifs into this one topic.....No wonder colleges favor diversity.</p>

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<p>thnx for the info wmalum2006</p>

240

<p>"Blacks and Hispanics are probably closer to Whites' stance."</p>

<p>I meant to say that Blacks and Hispanics are more open to attending a wide variety of schools regardless of location, size, etc, given equal reputations among universities. Asians tend to center their applications toward top ranked, large, research universities in the Northeast (Ivies, MIT) and the West coast (Stanford, UC's, USC). Every highly touted college candidate does this to a degree, but Asians in my opinion seem to target these schools to a larger extent than people of other races. At highly ranked liberal arts colleges and southern and catholic schools, there are lower amounts of Asians, unless they are at the top of their game (like Duke, Williams, etc) . I think this explains to some degree why many great liberal arts colleges, Southern, and Catholic universities have relatively low amounts of Asians.</p>