Rebuttal to Penn Bashing in Columbia Univ's Posts + A Shot at A "New" Rankings Table

<p>I will provide my own ranking of top schools, but first I have to add a few thoughts:</p>

<p>1) I am shocked and amazed by the level of Penn-bashing on this ? and several other Columbia -sites. A lot of the bashing is based on spurious data, half baked statistics or long-passed glories. The implied inferiority complex for Columbia students/alums is shocking and sad. You can?t lift your institution by tearing another one down. No other Ivy crowd spends ANYWHERE near as much time trying to justify why their school is a hair?s breadth away from the Holy Grail of HYP-dom!!!</p>

<p>2) I (full disclosure ? a Penn alum) have immense respect for Columbia. It?s one of the finest academic institutions in the world. But ? to set the record straight - Columbia?s relative standing has slipped; it?s been falling for a long while. Columbia (like Yale) suffered dearly during the social/class crises of the 60s and suffered again (like NYC) during the financial crises of the 70s. The school is recovering, but it?s lack of leadership has caused:</p>

<ul>
<li>extraordinary academic strengths in economics, history, psychology, and other humanities have materially faded over time (Top 5 standing 20 years ago, Top 15 now)</li>
<li>faculty citations, publishing and overall visibility have declined substantially over time</li>
<li> alumni giving is piddling relative to Columbia?s main peers</li>
<li>the lowest endowment growth among top schools for the last 20 years; it?s falling from the #2 endowment (with a big gap ahead of the third ranked school) to #6 among private schools with Penn about equal and others closing in)</li>
<li>graduate schools are accused by many of resting on their laurels/coasting on their NYC connections vs producing innovative scholarship and service programs for the broader community</li>
</ul>

<p>3) Regarding the So-Called Gaming of US News - come on kids!!! Do you really think that all the schools don?t manage their numbers vis-?-vis USNews. Most people suspect Princeton ?games? it?s admissions yield, Penn ?manages? its research spending, Chicago ?adjusts? its admit ratios, and Columbia ?games? its research spend and endowment figures. To claim everyone but Columbia does it is juvenile and disingenuous. They may all do it, but they?re all starting from stellar levels anyway, so the USN rankings are still relatively fair.</p>

<p>Two quick questions to wonder about- a) what would happen if the medical research spend was deducted from the research totals for the Ivies then the list was re-ranked. Cornell would be #1, then far down the list Penn, then Harvard, then Yale. </p>

<p>b) even more interesting, adjust the admit stats for total apps per seat, yield on students w/o fin aid (no buying of students), % of class filled via ED/EA and total yield on all admits. The revised rankings would be shocking.</p>

<p>On to the Rankings:</p>

<ul>
<li>Small clusters makes more sense for such rankings; absolute pecking-order ranking is almost meaningless for universities *
** These rankings are of the entire organization, not just the undergrad components **</li>
</ul>

<p>SUPER ELITES (global name recognition, THE best academic and financial resources)
Harvard / Stanford
(the absolute best in terms of overall academic scope and depth, well balanced academic strengths in many areas, extraordinary financial and human resources, committed and thoughtful leadership over decades, huge research programs, superlatives among their faculty, fanatically loyal alumni, aggressive and successful fund raising)</p>

<p>Among the two, Harvard may be the best in the world today, but Stanford has the momentum. In 10-15 years on its current trajectory, Stanford will hold the crown.</p>

<p>MIT
For what it does ? hard sciences, engineering, quantitative social sciences, there?s no better school. Not even Stanford. Down a notch due to it?s relatively narrower mission/focus.</p>

<p>Princeton / Yale
Amazing resources, strong names and deep traditions. Third position in this cluster due to (a) Yale?s focus on arts & humanities to the clear detriment of its science and engineering areas; and (b) Princeton is the most balanced academically among the SUPER ELITES (with the possible exception of Stanford), but it?s not a major research school. Unique focus among the SUPER ELITES on undergraduate education.</p>

<p>ELITES (broad & deep resources; large research programs in multiple areas)</p>

<p>Penn / Columbia
VERY similar schools. Among the largest of the Ivies. They have similar total populations, roughly equal endowments, shared institutional leanings towards their grad schools (unspoken but true). Both located in large cities. </p>

<p>Academically, they are roughly balanced. Penn is slightly stronger in social sciences, Columbia is slightly stronger in humanities. Columbia trumps Penn in engineering and
the hard sciences, but Penn has Wharton and Nursing. Penn has an advantage in its interdisciplinary programs and research via its One University policy, while Columbia?s Core provides an outstanding intellectual underpinning for its students.</p>

<p>Grad schools ? match point
Penn wins in Medicine (huge margin), Nursing (huge), Business (large), Dental (small)
Columbia wins in Education (huge), Social Work, (huge), Law (small), Engineering (medium)
Roughly a tie in Arts & Sciences; Journalism = Annenberg; Architecture = Penn Design
Can?t directly compare Penn Veterinary, or Columbia SIPA, Public Health or Arts</p>

<p>Penn, however, gets the nod. It has more momentum, has placed better institutional bets in faculty recruitment, research initiatives and commitments to civic service. It?s come farther, faster than most peers and is showing signs of accelerating its gains within the ranks of higher education.</p>

<p>Duke / Cornell
Great schools, significant research enterprises, distinguished alums. Duke is outstanding in the professions and life sciences. Cornell is extraordinary in engineering, the hard sciences, veterinary medicine, natural sciences, management. A notch below the other ELITES, because Duke is ?relatively weaker? in certain humanities and hard sciences; Cornell is weaker in the social sciences and arts. Both have slightly lower levels of financial resources, and are slightly less selective</p>

<p>WUSTL / Northwestern
Very strong schools with particular areas of world class scholarship. WUSTL in hard sciences, social work, medicine, architecture. Northwestern in business, advertising, journalism, arts and humanities. Fewer financial resources, global recognition than other ELITES</p>

<p>USC
Great resources in the sciences, engineering, communications, film, business. Very international student body. Good momentum, solid financial base.</p>

<p>UberIntellectuals (heavy focus on research, intensely intellectual, limited social scene)</p>

<p>UChicago
No Ivy (except possibly Yale in the arts, Harvard in social sciences) can match Chicago for sheer intellectual firepower. Many of the key schools of thought which have framed American life in the last fifty years (economics, social policy, foreign affairs, legal theory) were developed in Hyde Park. Conservative government?s intellectual underpinnings are here. Extraordinary intellectual depth, broad research program, strong financial base. And reinvigorated leadership.</p>

<p>CalTech
Pound for pound, no school can match CalTech in engineering and hard sciences. Not even MIT or Stanford. Strong endowment, loyal alumni base.</p>

<p>Johns Hopkins
Deep focus on health care, medicine, public health. Life sciences complex only matched by USCF, Penn and Harvard. Great strengths in humanities, international affairs, arts.<br>
Intensely research driven. Rumored to have turned down joining the Ivy League amid fears doing so would weaken its commitment to academics.</p>

<p>Other great schools</p>

<p>Other wonderful places to learn include Dartmouth, Brown, Williams, Swarthmore, Haverford. But they are much smaller, narrower academic platforms and can?t reasonably be compared to the research driven institutions listed above.</p>

<p>To humor those who want a strict Ivy Plus ranking (with nods to schools with momentum):</p>

<p>Stanford
Harvard
MIT
Princeton
Yale
Penn
Columbia
Duke
Cornell
Brown
Dartmouth</p>

<p>That?s all folks!!!</p>

<p>Well as it leans in my favor, I am all for it. :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Penn, however, gets the nod. It has more momentum, has placed better institutional bets in faculty recruitment, research initiatives and commitments to civic service. It?s come farther, faster than most peers and is showing signs of accelerating its gains within the ranks of higher education.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While I agree with you on a "gut" basis, it would be nice if you could offer more objective proof</p>

<p>
[quote]
Very strong schools with particular areas of world class scholarship. WUSTL in hard sciences, social work, medicine, architecture. Northwestern in business, advertising, journalism, arts and humanities

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's actually Northwestern that's better in hard sciences--NU stronger in chem/physics while WashU is better in bio.</p>

<p>I'd also add to penn's advantages the "college experience" awarded by the caliber of the "money" sports (as if Ivies had money sports)... as far as football is concerned CU is pretty much one of the worst teams of all time. And for basketball they're that team that is always supposed to have "their year" but never really does.</p>

<p>whatever happened to the johnnyk fellow</p>

<p>He was killed in a freak coffee-machine mishap over in China working for Apple</p>

<p>I think you're correct with Harvard/Stanford/MIT. </p>

<p>Yale and Princeton (especially Princeton as it is really an undergrad school) could actually be placed below Columbia and Penn, but they do have much more in terms of resources than the other two. That is the only thing that separates them I feel; they should be in the elites. After all, I thought when it came to research universities, the top dogs are Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Penn, Columbia.</p>

<p>hahaha props, legendofmax</p>

<p>Ouch, poor guy. Well we can only hope his spirit lives on in all of us and our lewdness, narcissism, and naked self-interest ;)</p>

<p>Yale and Princeton (especially Princeton as it is really an undergrad school) could actually be placed below Columbia and Penn, but they do have much more in terms of resources than the other two. That is the only thing that separates them I feel; they should be in the elites. </p>

<p>You mean besides Princeton's rock star faculty, financial aid, and the fact that it blows columbia/penn for undergrad. yale/brown/dartmouth are also better than columbia/penn for undergrad.</p>

<p>Do you actually love bagels, I wonder</p>

<p>yes. and im pretty sure penn has the highest campus-area bagel availability in the ivy league. Just think of all the places you can get bagels...including the food trucks, and wow...that's a lot of bagels for me to love.</p>

<p>Columbia gets bonus bagel points for being in NYC, but campus space constraints severely dampen Columbia bagel availability. I hope they will have more bagel availability in the new Manhattanville campus, even though it will come at the expense of a contiguous, compact campus that Columbia currently enjoys to foster what relatively little sense of on-campus community it has.</p>

<p>I prefer low-fat cream cheese</p>

<p>A third less fat Philly</p>

<p>columbia has the core curriculum which all students share and bemoan</p>

<p>Penn has the core meal plan acting to a similar effect</p>

<p>and coincidentally the little cream cheese thing it comes in is a third smaller...greatest marketing scheme ever.</p>

<p>It reminds me of those diet Wawa iced teas that are basically the original Iced Teas heavily diluted with water</p>