<p>sylvan, that is what I was thinking. There is as much up-side to keeping the young man in school, as there is the young woman. Unless he’s truly done something wrong and poses a danger, they can’t just expell him. And it’s the SCHOOL, in that instance, that needs to be sure of the facts.</p>
<p>^^ I agree. I’m sure Dean will talk to the Director also, to see what has been done already.</p>
<p>eastcoascrazy: In re: your post #294, that is a frightening example of bona fide Facebook stalking. I’m sorry your son had to deal with this.</p>
<p>I’m one of the people who has questioned what the term means in this case. Some people who talk about “Facebook stalking” are referring to activity that is quite benign. Sometimes they even use the term jokingly, which I am going to stop doing to avoid confusion and also to avoid trivializing real cases of social media stalking. </p>
<p>It is none of our business what happened in the case of the OP’s daughter, but it would be relevant to any assessment of the level of threat this boy posed. One can choose to assume the worst case scenario or the opposite. Or one can assume, as I do, that without the full, on-the-ground details, it’s impossible to know what the reality is in this instance.</p>
<p>Would you sue a school that does not want your son there? </p>
<p>Would your son even want to go to a school that does not want him there ?</p>
<p>Would you stand a chance of winning in the environment that exists now in the nation?</p>
<p>Or would you just want to move on and use your money to get him started in another school where he can have a fresh start?</p>
<p>You would not want to put your son through a lawsuit.</p>
<p>I really do not believe there is a downside to the school if they told him to leave.
Even if they pony up some money to get him to leave it would be in their best interest.</p>
<p>With some trepidation, I am going to relate my experiences of long ago, because I had a different perspective on a similar situation – I was in the position of the boy’s roommate.</p>
<p>One of my close friends has a bona-fide, hallucinations-and-straitjackets schizophrenic break our junior year in college. He had been one of my roommates the previous year, and we were expecting to room together the following year, too. We weren’t in the same rooming group that year because I had taken an internship in NYC fall semester.</p>
<p>Anyway, long before his mental illness became apparent, he had had a big crush on a particular girl. She was reasonably crush-worthy – pretty, friendly, very social, but not terribly sophisticated. (She also looked EXACTLY like a 20-year-old version of his mother.) Everyone in our social circle knew her and liked her, but she and her close friends weren’t really close to any of us. As my friend’s mental state got worse, she took on godlike qualities in his thought processes – it was one of the first clear signs of what, several weeks later, made his friends restrain him and take him to the emergency room.</p>
<p>Anyway, a year later he was back in school, back living with me and other friends, getting a lot of drugs and therapy. And as the drugs and therapy started to work a bit . . . he started to stalk the girl. It turned out that in all the time he had worshiped her, sometimes literally, he had never actually spoken to her. She was only vaguely aware of his existence, had no idea he was obsessed with her, and knew nothing of his (by then, two) in-patient psychiatric hospitalizations. But all of a sudden, he was approaching her, touching her surreptitiously, stealing little objects, and of course being generally creepy. From a therapeutic perspective, this was great news – he was developing the ego-strength to approach her, to imagine himself in an actual relationship with her, and he no longer thought he would be struck dead if he got too close. From a social perspective, it was awful. The girl was, understandably, terrified. Because she felt she knew his close friends, she approached us to ask what was going on and could we maybe ask him to stop scaring her. </p>
<p>But we were petrified with fear ourselves. Living with him and effectively parenting him on a daily basis was exhausting and demoralizing. We loved him, we wanted to be good friends, we wanted to protect him, but we knew he was sick and we had no idea what he might do now that the taboo against approaching the girl had broken down. None of us wanted to be accessories to his stalking, and we really really didn’t want to feel responsible if he attacked her in some way. Which we didn’t think he would, but who knew for sure . . . ? We had no idea how to protect either of them.</p>
<p>And we had no support, none. His parents had their heads in the sand, and only wanted him to graduate on time and get back to normal. The deans thought it was a matter for the psychiatrists. The psychiatrists weren’t about to talk to a bunch of non-relative friends. His shrink did deign to talk to me on the phone once, to explain to me (as I knew perfectly well) that he couldn’t talk to me, and he was polite enough to listen to my expletive-laden rant in response telling him he had to make this behavior stop. We told our roommate that he wasn’t allowed to talk to the girl anymore, so he stopped telling us when he did, or doing it when we could see. It all got resolved when we graduated and moved away, by which time I was ready never to speak to him again (and I didn’t). He never attacked her, never did anything but be creepy (and I don’t think she ever had a real idea of the depths of his creepiness concerning her – it’s not like we thought anything good would come of telling her that). Nothing he did would have merited arrest, much less conviction . . . but we lived in fear that could change in an instant.</p>
<p>Anyway, the points of this shaggy dog story:</p>
<p>-- there can be a lot going on
– kids will try to be good people and to help each other, but they don’t necessarily know what to do, and they don’t generally have anyone knowledgeable to help them
– the fact that you haven’t been attacked yet doesn’t mean that you aren’t in danger, but being in danger doesn’t mean that being harmed is certain
– parents can be part of the problem, not the solution
– there needs to be a lot more support</p>
<p>
Above is from post # 276</p>
<p>
EXACTLY, calla1</p>
<p>And cromette. Your posts are spot on.</p>
<p>Sax,</p>
<p>“Would you sue a school that does not want your son there?”</p>
<p>I would absolutely sue a school that expelled my son without reason. But it’s ridiculous, because I don’t, not even for a minute, think they would do that. Because they would be sued.</p>
<p>“Would your son even want to go to a school that does not want him there ?”</p>
<p>No, probably not - but that’s beside the point. I would have to talk to a lawyer and find out what the best course of action was.</p>
<p>“Would you stand a chance of winning in the environment that exists now in the nation?”</p>
<p>Absolutely, yes. Why wouldn’t you?</p>
<p>“Or would you just want to move on and use your money to get him started in another school where he can have a fresh start?”</p>
<p>What money? They have his tuition. I would not ROLL OVER, and let them expell my son without reason.</p>
<p>“I really do not believe there is a downside to the school if they told him to leave.
Even if they pony up some money to get him to leave it would be in their best interest.” </p>
<p>Ummm…Bad press. Which is actually very powerful in today’s society. Plus, they would most certainly face legal action.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Interesting. Are students “students at will” like employees who are “employees at will” and can be fired for virtually any reason as long as the employeers do not violate a discrimination law? Can students legally be asked to leave for no reason?</p>
<p>I’d also like to comment on all the posts suggesting about the school requiring the student to get counseling. 35 years ago when I was in college we had a student in our dorm who was mentally unstable and needed help … I know school official spoke to him at least once … what we, the students, heard second hand was that the student refused help. We were also told by our RA that unless the student was judged to be an immediate threat to themselves or someone else the school could not require counseling or remove the student from school … not sure what was a legal limitation and what was a school policy.</p>
<p>Cromette.</p>
<p>As you can tell by this thread there are many gray areas in determining if someone has exhibited enough behavior to be deemed a threat. </p>
<p>It is too muddled.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to hear from a lawyer or judge.</p>
<p>and hey, I am cynical, I own that with no problem. I have seen too many good people burned. I have learned that common sense and what is “riight” are no guarantee for justice.</p>
<p>Anyway, I hope it all works out well for the all the students in this situation.</p>
<p>a quick google search</p>
<p>[Getting</a> Uncle Sam to Enforce Your Civil Rights](<a href=“http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/uncsam/complain/educ.htm]Getting”>Getting Uncle Sam to Enforce Your Civil Rights)</p>
<p>if your school accepts federal funds it appears that student has rights.</p>
<p>it does not appear to address mental health issues directly though</p>
<p>and again this it where these situations get muddled.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>calla1, could you clarify this, and maybe give a cite? It’s my understanding that the “mandated reporters” obligation applies only in child abuse and neglect situations. </p>
<p>Outside of that, a mental health professional’s duty to warn is a complicated issue, because there is such an obvious tension with the important duty of confidentiality. (This is probably obvious, but if a client is not assured that the therapist will be very strict about confidentiality, the client will be hesitant to disclose thoughts and feelings, which would seriously undermine the therapeutic process.) </p>
<p>In any case, the duty to warn varies from state to state, and I believe it is not nearly as broad as you say. For example, [in</a> California](<a href=“http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/CIV/5/d1/2/s43.92]in”>http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/CIV/5/d1/2/s43.92), a psychotherapist is subject to liability for a failure to warn only “where the patient has communicated to the psychotherapist a serious threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or victims.” A disclosure outside of that limited circumstance could expose the psychotherapist to liability for breach of the duty of confidentiality.</p>
<p>None of this applies to the situation in this thread – except perhaps by analogy – but I wouldn’t want readers here underestimating the seriousness of a psychotherapist’s duty of confidentiality.</p>
<p>SodiumFree-</p>
<p>You didnt pose this question to me, but I’d like to respond.</p>
<p>States have differing reporting obligations, and the verbiage written into each state’s laws vary. As you mentioned California, you are probably aware of the Tarasoff rule [Judicial</a> Notebook–Tarasoff reconsidered](<a href=“http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug05/jn.aspx]Judicial”>Judicial Notebook--Tarasoff reconsidered) It, or variations of it, are used in many states. There are limits to confidentiality if a person poses an imminent risk to themselves or others, or identifies a potential target, and there is then a “duty to warn” the potential target of these threats. Of course it may be difficult to discern the veracity of these threats, so the mental health provider has to make a professional judgement in each case, and must ask a number of questions as part of their risk assessment, interview, therapy session, etc.</p>
<p>There are also, in some states, elder abuse laws, with mandated reporting if an older adult is suspected of being neglected or abused.</p>
<p>These are delicate cake-walk issues that are forever being discussed at risk management and ethics seminars/workshops. We joke that they should hand out xanax at the door of these workshops. These are tough judgement calls that have to be made, justified and documented by the healthcare professionals.</p>
<p>**ETA- Wanted to add, with all new clients, the limits of confidentiality are typically addressed either in writing or verbally at the outset of treatment. As licensed professionals, we are held to a higher standard with a duty to protect the public. Its my understanding that if a professional feels that they are obligated to report, that they should do so, should get professional consultation, document their records, etc. Sure it can have negative consequences on a therapeutic alliance, but there is a responsibility to protect the public and if the professional is acting in good faith, they are doing the right thing. No professional likes to have to make this decision.</p>
<p>Thanks, jym626, I agree with what you said. </p>
<p>But some of calla1’s statements are, I think, incorrect. For specific example, she (he?) said that “It is not their [mental health professionals’] job to determine how valid the threat is.” I think that in fact, it is the therapist’s job to use professional judgment to determine if a threat is in fact a serious one. For example, my guess is that clients tell their therapists all the time that they are so angry at a spouse or other family member that they want to kill them. In many cases this is obvious hyperbole, and a therapist would not even consider reporting it.</p>
<p>calla1 also said “it is illegal for these professionals to delay a report out of concern for potentially ‘labeling’ or traumatizing an innocent person.” I wonder where this came from. It does not sound like statutory language; maybe there is some case law to this effect?</p>
<p>I have a hard time believing this thread; the nastiness and the incredible parsing of words and situations when students might be in danger. Our students are told that if they feel unsafe when they are on campus they are to contact the University police department. They are sworn law enforcement officers; they carry guns; they can make arrests. They are especially sensitive to students. If they are off-campus they are to call the city police department. Similarly, our students are instructed to call the Division of Student Life (Dean of Students) when they are having trouble with other students. </p>
<p>No more Virginia Techs.</p>
<p>^ OP’s D spoke to RA. RA spoke to RD. We do not know where that led or what was done there. Dean was notified yesterday. It has been reported already.</p>
<p>
Do ya know me?</p>
<p>Oh, wait. :)</p>
<p>Yes, I would go to the mat for S or D.</p>
<p>Referring to OhioMom3000’s post above: Also, most of the people who have been posting since the early hours of the thread have advocated taking the situation seriously. OhioMom3000 and I would have been on campus two weeks ago! Believe me, if my child were involved, I’d be all over this. I like to think, though, that I’d be clearheaded enough to keep hysteria at bay. Yes, it makes sense to investigate. No, it is not necessary to jump to the conclusion that a particular situation contains the seeds of the next Virginia Tech massacre. It is possible to take the situation seriously without assuming the worst.</p>
<p>Sodiumfree;</p>
<p>Yes, in fact it is a requirement in many state laws that reporting be done within 24 hrs of the threat (duty to warn) or suspicion of abuse. And if you want to hear vague language, here is the statute from one state:
Trying to define a “reasonable cause to believe” can be quite a lively discussion.</p>
<p>I think 3togo is right. </p>
<p>My D had an experience with a fellow student freshman year whose behavior was “off” and scary to her and to others. He was the BF of her roommate, but was an older military veteran returned from Afghanistan who kept talking about buying guns. I’m not going to go into the other details of the story here, but it was also a kind of nebulous case where the man had said and done many worrisome things, but nothing really criminal. For example, my D’s best friend is Jewish, and this guy would make all kinds of anti-Semitic comments to his face.</p>
<p>Anyway, after one particularly disturbing episode of unstable behavior, D went to talk to the RA. The RA listened, said he understood her concern, but said there was nothing he could do. This was what D suspected would be the case, but I was worried for her safety since the guy started spending lots of time in her room, and so told her to tell the RA anyway. Several weeks later, D learned from the guy himself that a group of students had reported him for threatening speech, and school officials had met with him about it. They tried to get him to withdraw and leave school, and labeled him “a threat to the school community.” He fought it, invoking free speech protections. They succeeded in getting him to move off campus but they couldn’t expel him, and they couldn’t make him go to counseling. They did request he see a counselor, but he refused.</p>
<p>Thanks, jym626. </p>
<p>What I wanted to make clear was that the mandatory reporting requirements that calla1 talked about apply to child abuse and neglect situations. That’s true of the 24-hour reporting requirement you cite as well. Again, I just want to make sure people reading this thread don’t think that the child abuse/neglect mandatory reporting requirements apply more generally. </p>
<p>There is statutory and case law on the duty to warn in other cases (as when one adult threatens another adult), but that duty does not have nearly as clear-cut requirements as the child (and elder) abuse situations. (Even though I agree that defining a “reasonable cause to believe” in child abuse situations is not always so easy as one might think.)</p>