Talk me down (long and rambling)

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>I haven't posted much but I've been reading these forums for awhile now. I've read so many posts about people wanting to send their kids to schools they can't afford and lots of good advice telling them not to. I've always agreed with that advice and now I find myself in the position of not wanting to take it.</p>

<p>My son auditioned at four schools. Eastman was his reach (and dream school) and he had a couple of safer options. He was accepted to three schools and waitlisted at Eastman. He has since declined two of the schools, accepted UT (which is in-state and offered him some merit aid), and stayed on the waitlist at Eastman. </p>

<p>Yesterday, he got offered a spot at Eastman. S was on cloud nine. He was absolutely ecstatic. Then we got the financial offer. They offered some merit money but it's just not enough. Though we've told him all along that Eastman would only happen with a very generous offer he seems to have forgotten all of that. He just keeps trying to convince me that we can make it work. That we have to. That you just don't pass up this kind of opportunity. So what if he has debt, everyone has debt. </p>

<p>Today his lesson teacher called me and basically told me that this is an opportunity that he shouldn't pass up, it will open doors for him that UT can't, most students live with debt, and so on and so on. Did I mention that he's young and single and has never had to put anyone through college?</p>

<p>My son has two years of GI bill funding transferred to him from his dad (the other two years went to our other child). So really we only have to be concerned about the last two years. </p>

<p>The difference in our cost (tuition/fees/room/board less merit) for the last two years at Eastman versus the last two years at UT is about $57k which we don't have lying around. And he has definite plans to go to grad school, so there's that to consider.</p>

<p>I know in my head that we just can't do this. But in my heart, I want to let him go and think that somehow in the next two years we'll figure out how to pay for the last two years. Or we'll take some loans or borrow from my 401(k). And then my head is screaming "what??? who is this person??". </p>

<p>This is hard. I feel guilty to admit it, but I kind of wish they'd just rejected him. </p>

2

<p>I am so sorry. I completely sympathize. My son is wait listed at a University that will cost $100,000 more over the 4 years than his current choice. Like your son, it is his dream school. While I am glad we didn’t have to make the choice you are faced with, I do fear what would happen if he comes off the wait list. I want him to go to his dream school, but would it be worth $100,000 more than the top ten school (in his major) that he will be attending? I don’t think so…</p>

3

<p>Was the GI funding somehow indicated on the financial aid applications? Could that why you got only a little merit aid? If so, perhaps your financial aid package would look different for the last two years. I’m not really familiar with that. </p>

<p>But, yes, this is a tough call. Many do take out loans, or second mortgages, or dip into retirement. It’s very nice to know the first two years are covered for you, however.</p>

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<p>You didn’t mention what your son was studying and that could be important in terms of what people answer, because it also comes down to who he would be studying with at UT versus who he would be studying with at Eastman and about the relative merits of the program. Eastman is a well regarded program when it comes to music, but to use a hypothetical (and please, that is all this is), it could be UT has a great percussion department and Eastman’s isn’t as good, for example, so if S were a percussionist it would make more sense to go to UT.</p>

<p>Okay, so what does that mean? It means rather than looking at Eastman as the temple on the hill and UT as the comfy ranch house in the burbs, you need to break it down analytically. Is he thinking of Eastman as the temple because of its reputation overall, or is it because there is a teacher there who he really likes, studied with an so forth? There are great teachers at Eastman, there are some not so great teachers there in my opinion as well, and it could be you would find better teachers at UT. It could be that the average level at Eastman is higher than UT (likely to be, simply because Eastman is a conservatory, one of the more competitive ones), but there will probably be good students at UT because of its financial advantages, so he will find talented musicians there, too. And if he is planning to go to grad school, then going to Eastman may not make sense, he could potentially do well at UT and then get into a great grad program…</p>

<p>It is hard, and yes, I faced that with our S, he got accepted at a very, very good program and had a full ride, but he ended up choosing going to a school where we pay pretty much full freight…thing is, we can afford to do it, but if we couldn’t he prob would have taken the full ride school. His teacher meant well, but it is very easy for him to say everyone has debt, the reality is with any major, but especially music, there is going to be a period where he will be establishing himself, and having loans to pay back could force him to give up the dream of being a musician if things don’t click fast. And yes, going to Eastman UG would open up some doors, but since he is planning to go to grad school, he could go to a grad school like a Juilliard, NEC, CIM, etc, etc, and have doors opened…and not have a boatload of debt, either on him or you. </p>

<p>And yes, it is hard, you want to give them the best you can, I so understand that, I have given my son a lot, but I would have loved to be able to give him more, to be able to send him to festivals overseas, to have been able to travel around the world with him, a lot of things, but you only can do what you can do. I don’t recommend doing things like doing a 401k loan or other kinds of loans unless you absolutely, positively believe that UT is a dismal second to Eastman, I mean literally that the teacher on your S’s instrument is lame, the program has a bunch of okay level high school musicians filling its ranks (and obviously, I can’t speak of UT’s music program, especially since we don’t know what you son is heading into, the answer could be very different if he is a pianist versus he is a trumpeter, hypothetically speaking…). I think you may get a better answer if you mentioned what your S’s area is (vp, violin, cello, piano, woodwind, brass, etc), some people on here may be able to talk about both programs and what their opinions are, but I would tell you that UT and then grad school at a top program sounds like a better option to me, but see what others say.</p>

5

<p>Thanks for the responses!</p>

<p>@Clarimom the GI bill does not get factored in to financial aid. </p>

<p>@musicprnt he’d be a percussion performance major at either school. I think both teachers are great but he’s been a fan of the one at Eastman for quite some time. It’s also a matter of the amount of performance time he’d get and the level of the students. From everything I’ve learned, UT is a high quality program, and prior to being accepted at UT he was excited to go there. </p>

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<p>I am in somewhat the same position with my son. He has been deciding between a school where he has more than full tuition and then one of his top choices where he received a great scholarship but not quite what I had hoped for (and is going to require more from the bank of mom). If graduate school is in the plans for the future, the advice I have been given is to make sure that the school he chooses is going to prepare him so that he is competitive when it comes to appling to graduate school. You could probably check this by asking UT about how many kids they send on to graduate school, where they go, etc. </p>

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<p>Ok, I’m going to play stupid here and assume that UT is the University of Texas. If you are considering Eastman, the real decision is not what you are going to do in two years. Rather it is what you are going to do in a year since transferring after two years may result in a dramatic loss of credits. In addition, you have to make your son understand, even though it will hurt to say this, that it is you and not him that will have to come up with the money through loans or 401(k) borrowings. If you feel that you simply can’t do Eastman, then you have a marketing job to do that going to UT will not stifle his percussion career especially if he plans on graduate school. Once he accepts UT as a valid undergraduate option, your understandable guilt will be assuaged even though it does not need to be since it seems like you have been up front with him from the beginning. </p>

8

<p>My son is a Freshman right now in the percussion studio at Eastman. There is no where in the world he’d rather be or anywhere we’d rather have him. Mike Burritt is amazing!!! You can PM me with any questions you’d like and I’ll help you anyway I can. Does it cost yes. Is it worth it. YES!!!</p>

9

<p>Just throwing in my two cents here.
By your post, I take it that each of the 3rd and 4th years will cost $26,500 more. The obvious answer from a financial standpoint is to let it go and enjoy UT, BUT if you really want it to be of his choosing, you could present a deal structured to cost share the differential.</p>

<p>For example:
He will have two summers prior plus the school years to work and save money.
In your shoes, I might consider the following deal:

  1. He must earn and save $10k by the start of his junior year, or transfer out. Hard and fast rule.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>He must be willing to accept and repay $30,000 of the differential if you were to use parent plus loans (however, you would be liable). Most UGs rack up $30k in debt today. If they’re willing to pay a car payment’s worth of their meager earnings for ten subsequent years and are willing to go without whatever else that money might buy, like a car…and if they’re CLEAR that’s what they’ll have to do…then fine.</p></li>
<li><p>If you pay the additional 17k out of pocket, then under no circumstance will you finance grad school, and he will have to wait until financial independence at age 24 or only attend grad schools with full funding.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>My hunch is that if you mapped it out that way and he really pondered what that would mean, he ay well not only choose UT freely but feel especially grateful it was an option :slight_smile: OTOH, he might pursue at all costs. But this would put him in the locus of control.</p>

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<p>At the risk of being a bit controversial I just want to say that the student loan crisis is not going to go away and I predict there will be some sort of implosion in the near future similar to the housing crisis. If that happens then it is very likely that the government will have no choice but to implement a policy that forgives student loans. Obviously choosing to take a large student loan is risky and nobody can predict exactly when the student loan crisis will indeed implode or if something will be done to prevent an implosion before it does.</p>

<p>Some other thoughts. It might be worth contacting Eastman and explaining your situation. I would talk to the financial aid people and see if they can help you out. I would also let the professor who called know that money is an issue. You never know what you can squeeze out of the school. </p>

<p>And finally I agree with others about weighing all the dimensions. My son could have attended a program for next to nothing but he would not be having the experience he is having at his current schools. Peers matter a lot. The connections my son has made at his current school are going to shape his career and make it possible for him to continue to do what he loves. I am not sure that would have happened at the other school.</p>

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<p>I agree with KMC mom. If the first 2 years are affordable, let him work for what he wants, starting with a job as soon as he can get one.</p>

<p>I’d put a plan in writing so there are clear goals:</p>

<p>If he can raise x amount by junior year, he can continue at Eastman, as long as costs don’t increase beyond a certain point and you’re not eating into your retirement or taking huge loans. Make sure he knows what you can comfortably pay and, if costs exceed that, he has to transfer or take a leave of absence and work full time to make up the difference. Are there departmental scholarships that might be available as a junior if your finances change? I’d look into that. Good luck.</p>

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<p>I can’t comment on Eastman vs UT. Do contact Eastman re more funds. You never know if you don’t ask. We stretched to send DD to a better program, used a home equity loan. Just about paid it off now. Interest rates are really low right now. She is responsible for her grad school and those loans but it is working out. With income based repayment she will be able to manage the repayments. She did work 2 years before going to grad school though. The grad school loans are something to consider. BTW - she did not go to her dream school because the finances were way out of line and she did not go to the virtually free ride either. The final choice ended up being great for her. </p>

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<p>That’s a tough situation to be in. I would go for the nearly free ride, though. There are many paths to success, and you have more flexibility after graduation if you aren’t saddled with a lot of debt. </p>

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<p>Seems like I’ve read so many variations of this story this year, & lived it ourselves to some degree. If only there was someway, before applying, to be sure that if accepted your student can afford to attend to avoid all this heartbreak.</p>

<p>I’m on the side of the financially conservative. It’s easy for kids to get stars in their eyes and believe that if they attend X school, their future is set. But I believe that when you go for a grad school audition in performance, they’re going to care how good you are, period. And I believe that students are largely in charge of how good they get, as long as they are getting high quality training. I know that Eastman may provide excellent contacts & opportunities, but these will be available & more important in grad school as well.</p>

<p>I think of debt as a big rock you have to carry around. Those without the big rock can be nimble, take some risks & grab opportunities that come up. Those with a big rock have to drag it along wherever they go, keeping them in the slow lane.</p>

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<p>This is a difficult decision but is common one. The reality is that in music one needs to audition to get the merit aid and a full financial picture to make the decision. We were faced with a similar situation as my son received acceptances to several “top” schools and received a range of no help to a wide variety of merit offers. I coined the phrase bestitis to describe many of the responses we heard. Some people could not imagine not picking the"best" school under any circumstances. He ended up accepting a generous merit offer which allows him to graduate without any debt and which does not require the draining of accounts. </p>

<p>I would suggest a few things. I personally think that success ultimately is a result of the combination of talent and hardwork and those who have it will get opportunity. I think the major programs suggest that their contacts will lead to work and success, yet there are many who went through these programs who are not enjoying these promises. Yet, we all know of people doing well who went to lesser schools and no school at all who are doing great.</p>

<p>I personally think many of these “top” schools are feeling the pinch of the economy and have are having trouble filling the seats in some of the programs.</p>

<p>A professor at one program spoke to several students and encouraged them take on as little debt as possible for their undergraduate degrees if they are planning on going to grad school because grad school is for a shorter time frame and allows one to minimize total debt. </p>

<p>I personally do not like the idea of starting a program you may not be able to finish. If the jobs do not materialize to pay for subsequent years it may be worse to not finish or take longer than to go to the cheaper school. I am sure many of the programs that want your child as an undergrad would also want them as a grad student.</p>

<p>Take a moment to figure out the payments on all of the debt you plan to take on and compare that to various earning situations in the field you plan to enter. What is your income like if you make it ie get the symphony spot. What is it like if you dont and teach etc. That may be eye opening and help make your decision.</p>

<p>Good luck</p>

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<p>I think it’s worth asking Eastman if they could reevaluate your financial package. There has also been a lot of discussion on this board about the importance of the performance instructor. Will the UT professor provide the same quality of instruction and networking opportunities as the Eastman professor? Has your son had sample lessons with both? Are the ensembles of comparable quality? Each of our families has to make the choice best for them–but I think it’s important to consider some of these factors. I guess I see it a little differently due to the fact that you have basically a two-year free ride at either place (as compared to some having to decide on a four-year package). Who knows what could happen in two years, and I think the plans outlined above for your son to help out with summer job funds etc. are great.</p>

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<p>I think it is difficult to plan for a certain amount of employment during the summers and school. The summer is when valuable contacts can be made through the festivals etc. Many of the best opportunities will be unpaid. As to employment during school as a BM performance major, time for such will be in short supply.</p>

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<p>It sounds like your son truly has his heart set on Eastman, and it is hard to see the effect of debt when you are young - hoping you can see a clear plan of action. I would be very careful though, as even a relatively small debt such as my two older children have, is burdensome when you are in the arts…their earning power is not high at all. This is why we were very grateful that my third child wanted to go to the school that gave her the full tuition, as my husband is a pastor and his salary would not allow us to contribute a great deal. Had she not loved the teacher and been 100% sure, we too would have been struggling to see if another school worked out, but I have to be honest and say we and her teacher would have, at the end said, take the least debt. All three of my kids are serious about sticking with it and want to have lifelong careers in music and theatre; the least debt they accrue while getting there the better. All the best as you make this difficult decision.</p>

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<p>I have heard the ensembles at UT, and they are excellent. There is no tremendous drop off in the quality of his peers between UT and Eastman. The undergraduate experience is all about what he puts into it, in the classroom, the practice room, the rehearsal studio, the library. More playing time and performance opportunities are crucial. Debt for an undergraduate music degree is a very bad idea, and it will limit his future options. Be strong and keep saying no. Good luck. </p>

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<p>Thanks for all of the great advice and sympathy! I truly appreciate everyone’s insights. S has voiced our financial concerns and the professor and admissions rep had him send in an e-mail appealing the financial package. So we are waiting on some response from that. </p>

<p>“I guess I see it a little differently due to the fact that you have basically a two-year free ride at either place (as compared to some having to decide on a four-year package). Who knows what could happen in two years”</p>

<p>@Clarimom I think this is exactly why turning it down would be so difficult. I feel like we have two more years to save and somehow make it happen. I’m actually finishing up a graduate degree which would increase my earning potential. But I’m not a big risk taker so the thought of relying on that is scary.</p>