<p>“I have seen the pros and cons of each choice and just don’t understand the vitriol.”</p>
<p>My stance leans toward the con, but of course I believe people can make their own choices and do what they like. But when fraternities have these incidents, like the Yale “no means yes, yes means anal”, any thinking person has to question what is going on. What happened in the group that led to that behavior? Yes, that was one particular incident. Yes, not all frat boys would do that. But this was Yale, and you would think those boys would know better. So it is important to question this. How do fraternities get that way. It’s not an isolated incident. You really think we should look the other way? I know all fraternities aren’t to blame but there are common elements and it is necessary to examine them. </p>
<p>Not all fraternities haze. Great. I have no issue with those. If not all fraternities have the drink til you puke mentality, that’s great. I do have a problem with older kids coercing younger ones, in some kind of power trip, to doing humiliating and dangerous tasks. I think that’s sickening, and that does happy with regularity in these groups. Don’t say it doesn’t and don’t call me ignorant. I grew up on a college campus and I am not blind. Yes, there are good things about these groups, but they are not all harmless.</p>
<p>Actually, I have seen such criticism – although it more often comes from students than parents. I have seen it in two forms:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>If you don’t go Greek, you will have no social life on this campus. You will spend four years of Saturday nights in your room reading stuff on Web sites.</p></li>
<li><p>If you don’t go Greek, you won’t have a future because you won’t have the leadership experiences and connections you need to get a decent job.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Criticism would be to say “If you chose not to pledge a frat you are clearly a dweeb who prefers to spend every weekend in the dorm watching YouTube.”</p>
<p>I believe that any group can exhibit this type of pressure. Making it only about the greek system is narrow minded. In colleges that have the intestinal fortitude to actually make very public their hazing sanctions, you will find all kinds of groups getting in trouble. Are the greeks included…of course. The cheerleaders…yes them too. And then there are the pharmacy honor fraternity…they have been busted too. </p>
<p>When you look at the list below and see the greek names, please realize that many of these are “honor” fraternities, not Interfraternity Council or Panhellenic Council, the two groups that umbrella what everyone here is labeling the “greek community”. While not on this list issued by the University of Texas, but very public, are the marching band hazing incidents. Hazing is not just a greek issue but it sure is an easy target when the topic comes up. It would be too hard to finger point the band, the cheerleaders and the pharmacy majors. Because if we did that, the “non-greeks” might be looking in the mirror and that type of self reflection might just be too hard.</p>
<p>There is a difference between condemning (All frats are bad, terrible organizations!) and criticizing/questioning (Why would one join a frat? Why do frats sometimes do terrible things?). Why are some of you suggesting we shouldn’t be suspicious about SOME activities that go on in fraternities. Are we supposed to be in denial? </p>
<p>“There is one thing that puzzles me…it seems to me that the families with students in greek organizations don’t seem to have the need to criticize those who do not choose to join, while those whose children do not choose to join seem to be much more judgmental.”</p>
<p>This doesn’t make sense. The topic is fraternities, and so we are questioning and criticising them. The topic is not every student in the world who is not in a fraternity. That’s too broad. Of course people won’t do that. But you see already, there is an us/them mentality that happens when cliques are formed.</p>
<p>And by the way, I doubt some kids in fraternities don’t snicker at kids who aren’t in their group. Come on.</p>
<p>PS: I’m not 100% anti-Greek. I’m not attacking all fraternities. I’m questioning elements of the system.</p>
<p>Collegeshopping: If this is going on in other organizations to the same degree as in fraternities, then Greeks have company (that doesn’t make the practices any better). The question is, in which groups do these things happen, and on which college campuses, so that those who want to can avoid them. My college had no Greek life and no organization with hazing, so I know many such places exist.</p>
<p>I have no idea if all universities are as public about their sanctions as UT, but they should be. Then a student can make a decision if they want to be part of that group or not. I suspect that if most campus are honest, most groups are guilty of some type of hazing, (because of the way hazing is defined by most campus…which can include “requiring a student to where a certain color” or “asking a pledge to pass the salt”) if a student got really ****ed at their org, some type of charges could be brought. I am smart enough to know that we are not talking about that type of hazing, but I feel pretty strongly that if the President of a Uni sanctions a group, the investigation turned up something more severe. My point is that hazing has never been and will never be just a “greek” issue but there is a great deal of closed minded thought here that it is and that is my source of frustration.</p>
<p>true redpoint. My D is a drum major. If she were wanting to seriously pursue that in college I would be looking into marching band hazing - a very real problem which does result in deaths and does get swept under the rug. We know about the highly publicized cases and have media driven perceptions about where - in terms of geography and conference - the worst problems might be. If I were in the position of helping her to look into that I wouldn’t stop at the point of thinking that one young man died so all band programs are corrupt or conversely that it must not be a problem at schools less known for that culture.</p>
<p>The OP was asking for pros and cons of fraternities for his son and it sounds like he is looking to get a better idea of how to go about finding information. While no single negative experience can speak for the entire system at all schools, no individual’s positive experience can invalidate those that didn’t turn out as nice.</p>
<p>And one other thought. This thread was started by an OP who had questions about her son joining a frat. The bottom line is that he has to be interested to go through rush, but there is no guarantee that he will get a bid. So sometimes, the decision is left to chance so to speak and just because he wants it doesn’t mean he’ll get it.</p>
<p>I think it is noteworthy that the UT regs make both the “hazer” and “hazee” subject to discipline. This recognizes that a participant has a choice whether to allow himself to be hazed or not. Rather than infantilize the adults who are the subject of the hazing by treating them as victims, it holds them equally responsible for violating the law and regs. That is how hazing activity should be viewed.</p>
<p>I would add to my band hazing example the idea that in high school people think of band kids as “band nerds”. There is the perception that one’s kid will be safe if hanging with the band crowd. D’s school is definitely that way - particularly considering the numbers of “tiger cubs” who now play flute and clarinet. Like making the mistake of thinking “band nerds” automatically = no hazing and safe environment, a parent could make the mistake of thinking that an academic frat, honors organization or female group = no likelihood of hazing or other questionable behavior. It could be true or false in any given case but the general idea is to avoid head in sand syndrome when assessing the options for one’s own kid.</p>
<p>Any membership organization may have traditional rituals that are now classified as hazing under today’s definitions. It is better to educate your child of the potential dangers rather than threaten him if he joins a fraternity (or gospel choir).</p>
<p>.please PM me if you know anything about financial penalties being charged to members of a sanctioned Greek organization accused of “hazing”. Doesn’t matter what type and given the guidelines of some states, consider it a " too much time spent" sanction…</p>
<p>Do not want to discuss on open forum…thank you!</p>
<p>Bay–I don’t think any of us (sans mini, who was talking about withholding money) are saying we would threaten our kids if they join certain groups. I don’t think refusing to spend money on booze for coolers constitutes a threat.</p>
<p>Bringing up hazing in other types of organizations is a red herring to this discussion. We were discussing the pros and cons of fraternities. What does the fact that some bands haze have to do with whether it’s a good idea to join a fraternity?</p>
<p>Wow, that UT memo is amazing. I wish all schools published something like that. I, for one, can see positive aspects to Greek life for many students and I wish that all of the organizations would just cut out all the stupid stuff that is endangering their members. I realize that what I think is “stupid” will not be what most college students think is “stupid,” but I think that most of us can agree that Greek life would improve if hazing would stop. That memo seems to be a good step in the right direction toward helping students make informed choices.</p>
<p>Lenny,
Discussing fraternity hazing in the context of all college hazing keeps it in perspective. One might argue that fraternity hazing is less likely to occur or fly under the radar because they are the ones targeted by the media.</p>
<p>OP if you are still there, just looking at the school’s website, there are a few fraternities that obviously care about scholarship. The highest average GPA for a fraternity is 3.57, compared to the all fraternity average of 2.96 and the all university men average of 2.87. They have the grade reports listed by semester, so it would be easy to research trends, especially as he is going through recruitment. Each member is required to do 10 hours each semester of community service and annually must host a philanthropy event involving 75% of its members. It also appears the school asks for risk assessments before events are approved and have required training on sexual assault, alcohol and drug abuse, hazing and diversity. Each chapter must have a risk chair and a scholarship chair and there is a campus judicial board that has the power to bring charges and sanction individual chapters. </p>
<p>Also, since it appears IFC recruitment is in June, it seems to be a great way to meet students regardless of whether or not he decides to join.</p>
<p>“One might argue that fraternity hazing is less likely to occur or fly under the radar because they are the ones targeted by the media.”</p>
<p>Does the media target fraternities, per se. I don’t think so. They target sensational stories and they can find those in fraternity hazing stories. The media was just as happy to report on the marching band hazing death in Florida.</p>