There is a lot of relevance to what mackinaw has said. So many of these high achieving kids are either naturally gifted or extremely self motivated or a combination of the two. In math and science I stopped being able to help our daughter relatively early on. She would study for hours every day and all I could do was sit with her to provide support by proximity. I would encourage her to take breaks or to go do something fun. She was internally driven, and fortunately in a reasonably healthy way. She was never focused on attempting to do better than someone else, she wanted to do the best that she could do.
We were fortunate in that we never pushed her in any way and we wouldn’t have. I tease her that had she had a boyfriend prior to the last semester of her senior year that she would not have ended up going to an elite school. In addition to that she had a small case of senioritis in her last semester. The extent of my pushing was a couple of conversations with her about running through the finish line versus letting up. She had worked so hard I didn’t want anything to jeopardize the opportunities she had created for herself.
My kids were not naturally gifted, they had to work hard for what they had. Things didn’t come easy for them, it also gave them a little perspective.
@mackinaw Your kid throwing tantrums at an early reminded me of my kid who used to cry after losing in any type of game such as Yahtzee or Scrabbles and wanted to play until he won. lol I think a lot depends on reading your kid’s personality. It might be true that some kids want to be pushed by parents, who knows? All I know is my kid would not have responded to parents putting additional pressures when he himself expected a lot from himself. Therefore, I want to say I am not judging Tiger Parents as bad or good. I can see it working well in certain situations. It’s the same thing as pushing a kid to keep on practicing basketball, football or soccer. If the kid likes to be pushed or enjoys getting pushed, cajoled or motivated by his parents, I don’t see anything wrong with this. I was brought up by parents who just let me be, so I found it too energy draining to keep on pushing my son and thereby endangering our good relationship.
It’s not easy being young and thinking about the weight of all expectations being put on your shoulders from various sources, so the last thing I want to do is put more pressure or stress. I think I would have been fine with a motivated kid, unmotivated kid who goofed around, a kid who loved to play sports etc., as long as the kid didn’t do drugs or something illegal. In other words, if my kid is happy whatever he does, I would probably be all ok and be happy for him.
Some theorists on psychology say that switching from external motivators to internal motivation is an important step in maturity. I tried to raise my kids to go by their inner drives rather than external pressures like grades or college admissions- or parental pressure. I didn’t look at grades because I could tell who was working. (This worked well for two but the third did need some prodding; she now marches to her own drummer, that’s for sure).
Ironically I believe this approach actually helped them with colleges in the end. (Google Cal Newport)
I have read about the intense after school schools (so to speak) in South Korea but have also read that the culture is changing. So perhaps the cultures in countries of origin are calming down a bit. I have no idea.
Meanwhile Americans are ramping the pressures up. Academics before preschool etc. and “everyone deserves to go to college” etc. Kid are so much more stressed today, so I would hardly target any particular group.
I thought the story about flashcards until midnight didn’t exactly reflect a rejection of the tiger model, but perhaps I missed something.
One of the problems with the Tiger Parent syndrome, which I have yet to see anyone mention here on CC and elsewhere, isn’t just what dynamics taking place within the boundary of the parent and the child relationship. Lots can go wrong here, and I’m sure, on the other hand, many do become “successful” by the surface measures (elite college, prized career, etc.). The problem I’m talking about is the relationship between Tiger Parents and their children with their peers and others. If we can use Amy Chua as the representative of what it means to be Tiger Parents, her way of raising her two daughters wasn’t just about the dynamics that were taking place between her and the daughters but the way they saw their peers as nothing but competitors, potential enemies who may get in the way of the daughters’ path to success. It was cringe-worthy to read one chapter in her book where she was furious about the older daughter finishing second to a Korean boy in some insignificant elementary school class competition. That exemplified the way the daughters learned to see their peers and others, not as human beings with whom they need to learn to collaborate and work together but as competitors and potential enemies who get in their way.
This Tiger Parent syndrome has affected my son and me, as well, and the experience has left both of us with profound sadness more than anything else. A local Asian-American girl and her Tiger Mom were well known to our family. Even though the girl was two years older than my son, they knew each other very well because they both shared the same piano teacher and were in the same local youth symphony. It was the piano teacher from whom we learned to what extent the girl was leading an absolutely miserable young life. Instead of learning piano when she came to her weekly lessons, she’d spend the whole time crying on the teacher’s shoulders. Our family adored the girl because of her ever present smile, great manners, and her friendly personality. Then, one day, as we were driving home after a weekly youth symphony rehearsal, my son started to voice his concerns about her behavior towards him. He complained that the girl was starting to become physically hostile to him during the rehearsals, not just once but continuously each week. At first, we waved it off as we knew that that’s not the kind of girl that we’ve come to know. But it went on and that became a regular topic each time we drove home after the rehearsal. My son even told me that the girl blurted out something (which I won’t divulge here) in the middle of the rehearsal about her mom to everyone’s shock. Then, I knew what was happening. I believe the girl, who was the second chair in the first violin section, was so pressured by her mom to take over the first chair, which was occupied by my son, but being unable to by her ability no matter how hard she tried, started showing the symptoms of desperate frustration of not being able to meet her mom’s demand that she simply started displaying her hostility toward my son as a solution.
Fortunately, the situation pretty much resolved on its own after awhile, and while our view of the girl hasn’t changed at all – in fact, our sympathy just grew even more – we were quite upset at her mom for driving this wonderful girl into such desperation of crying on the shoulder of our piano teacher and exhibiting a behavior that was just not characteristic of her. That mom’s facial expression has always been that of extreme tension and unhappiness. It all changed once the girl was accepted to an Ivy. She seemed lot more relaxed when we ran into her and her daughter at a local Sam’s Club shortly after the girl’s HS graduation. We congratulated them and chatted for a little while before going on our separate ways. We truly hope that the girl is at a lot happier place being so far away from her mom.
Imagine if all children are brought up in this dog-eat-dog competitive mentality and attitude where it’s me against you where only me and my success count and you and your success are only a hindrance to my progress? What kind of a work force would we have when such a generation grows into adulthood and need to work with one another more than ever? A profound problem I have with the Tiger parenting is that they’re raising the generation of cubs without empathy, and that can only portend a degrading humanity.
The majority of my son’s friends are either of Chinese or East Indian background (as a Caucasian he’s actually a minority at his school). They are all in an academically advanced program and I have gotten to know them quite well over the years. I’ve heard a few cringe worthy comments from them about things their parents have said to them with regards to their marks. These are all gifted and high achieving students. There is nothing their parents should be criticizing with regards to their academic achievement. Still the parental pressures they face are fairly minor compared to what is being discussed here. I mentioned to DS one time that he was lucky that while we expected him to work hard and do his best, we weren’t like that. Both DH and I value education and hard work, but we would never admonish our children over an academic failure unless it was the result of a lack of effort. We don’t tie affection to success. I do have to say though that DS has benefited indirectly from the pressures put upon his friends by their parents. His work ethic has greatly increased though that might in part be due to an academic program that is more challenging and more intellectually rewarding as well as general maturity as he is pretty self-motivated. The other great thing about his friends is that none of them are competitive to the exclusion of others. They all work cooperatively to the benefit of all.
Seems like we hear plenty of class rank competition stories around these forums, particularly from Texas.
For the most part, I stayed out of my son’s decision making during high school, but when he first mentioned the class rank for the first time, I told him to stay out of the race – very firmly, I should add. He was around 5th in his class at the time (end of sophomore year, I believe), so he thought about entering the race. I believe I saved him from totally unnecessary ADDED stress. He graduated 6th in his class, and that was just fine with me. 
“Your kid throwing tantrums at an early reminded me of my kid who used to cry after losing in any type of game such as Yahtzee or Scrabbles and wanted to play until he won. lol I think a lot depends on reading your kid’s personality. It might be true that some kids want to be pushed by parents, who knows?”
This is interesting to me because, while I was never pushed academically by my parents, my family had the attitude that they would never “let you win” in a competition, whether sports or board/card games (our family Monopoly games on Christmas Day were legendary). I still can’t beat my father at chess more than one game in five. And when my brother and I get together, we have intensely competitive games of ping pong.
I think I found it beneficial (tantrums notwithstanding when I was young) and I don’t know if that’s a cause or result of me being extremely self-motivated and competitive nowadays. And though I’m certainly not a Tiger parent, generally I’m just as competitive with my own kids when we play games.
If tiger parents are one end of the spectrum, then the hands off or free-range style parenting might be the other end? Parents who don’t set any goals for their kids often believe in everyone should get a trophy, then they wonder why “grits” suddenly become a rare character.
Second/later generations of “model minorities” often “earned” the luxury to have their offsprings to pursue their own interests, while lots of once solid middle-class Americans have lost their traditional hardworking/driven characters and their children have become less competitive, and they are suffering. No wonder!
Tiger parents are not restricted to Asian parents. A local swimmer parents moved her from PA to Ohio with the hopes of her becoming swimming state champions, while I know Asian parents whose one kid quit piano after 3 years and the other kid never learned piano, but instead loves to rap!! imagine that!!
My Asian friends shamed DH and me for not forcing D to go to MIT or U Chicago. Meanwhile, D was the one who made the decision to having a better ROI by going to Vandy (CS premed) with merit scholarship. The mentality that you sell your pots and pans to send your kids to ivy is still very prominent in Asian community. And the pursuit of prestige and prestige alone is fruitless and empty in the long run!
@SincererLove
AFAIK, Asians are very good at savings for colleges. I don’t know whether Asian families are unique in pursuing prestige (very doubtful), most of them don’t need to “sell pots and pans” to send their kids to ivy’s, while many non-Asian families do (raking up large amount of loans for any colleges, not just the tippy top ones.)
There are other immigrant groups that push their kids to get an education as well. My parents were immigrants from Eastern Europe (Croatia) and they were incredibly strict and focused on education. Both my brother and I were good students and did well–we had no choice.
Many kids do well without parental pushing. Support is different from pushing.
Tiger parenting may work for a few but is generally counterproductive. I’ve seen many of these kids burned-out later in rigorous colleges and/or beyond. Helping kids develop their interests and natural talents is the way to go. Pushing them into areas in which they’re not interested or they don’t have natural talents is the recipe for problems down the road.
Interesting article. My wife and I are first generation Asian immigrants. The both of us followed the Tiger path to UCLA and UCB through grad school to our professional careers We were recently talking about this issue and observed the same as the author.
This generation of Asian just feels different. They are more concerned about fitting in - looking the part, playing sports, and going to parties. I am not saying its good or bad just different. Like the article implies it feels like we are going through the backlash of parents who werent fully participating in a traditional American life as children. Now as alot families have removed the economic stigma of being an immigrant they are expanding their social horizons, sometimes at the cost of academics.
For my family we feel there is room to excel in school and EC’s while developing a healthy social life but we are decidedly not “free range”. I call it Tiger-lite.
Imo, it’s a mistake to assusme Tiger kids don’t have other satisfying aspects to their lives.
And, it’s a common sociological observation that the ways of the immigrant generation morph.
I have no issue with pushing kids, it’s how they gain new experiences and stretch, as well as learn to adapt and be resilient. The idea is balance. And not making a kid’s whole self worth rest on grades, wins, elite colleges, etc.
I also suspect Chua’s book was meant to (or edited to) make waves, to sell. I don’t know how many of the extremes she cited were absolutes in her family, versus exaggerations to draw attention.
My kids once accused me of being a Tiger Mom. Once. I answered , “No, I’m Mama Bear.” That settled it. Now out of college, they’re both aware (much as oldfort states) how some cultivation 'got them where they are today." Not just in occupation, but thinking skills, willingness to press, adventurousness, awareness, and more.
It’s not all bad.
Each child’s personality, emotional, intellectual and physical makeup is that child’s own unique blueprint that nature has endowed with. How that child adapts to certain hostile environments really depends on that child’s complex makeup.
I remember growing up in South Korea where just attending school, to me, was a nightmare, and I don’t use that word lightly. What awaited me at school EACH DAY – from elementary school and much worse in middle school – was a brutal assault on my body (and psyche) under the pretext of being a poor student (true, I never did my homework let alone study, but that’s not relevant here). I was hit with just about everything you can conjure up in your imagination: sharp ruler, hollow metal pipe, baseball bat (for not bringing a PE cloth), broom stick, kicked in the shin with pointed shoes, slapped on the face, drum stick on my head (for not solving a math problem quickly enough, AS I’m solving the problem on the blackboard), etc. etc. etc. In middle school, back then (I don’t think they do this any more or at least without the physical assault part), they had this system of having upper class students lining up on both side of the gate entrance to catch anyone who walks in with anything they considered “irregular,” i.e., an altered school uniform, buttons not lining up perfectly, trouser a bit long, shirt not ironed, etc. etc. The punishment is the standard slap on the face or being struck with a stick. That’s how each school morning started. These students were a bit lenient than the teachers and their punishment was a bit more civilized. Nevertheless, there were some upper class students who had a tendency toward sadism a bit.
I was a perennial bed-wetter. You would, too, if you had been in this environment for many years. Back then, we didn’t have a washing machine, nor did we have an easy access to hot water by a simple turn of a knob, either. And those winter cotton bedding was very thick and hard to wash… When I think of my mother now, I think of her as a saint.
The bed-wetting immediately stopped the day that I arrived in the U.S. as an immigrant. The first day that I reported to a middle school, I was anticipating a physical assault as usual. It was my daily reality back in Korea, so it must be the same here in this country. The following day, no physical punishment of any kind. The following day… and so on until it dawned on me that teachers here just don’t hit you whether you’re a poor student or not. What a sigh of relief!!
Given my childhood experiences that I briefly described here, one thing that I do know is that children can be resilient like those wild weeds growing through the cracks in the sidewalk cement. I say “can,” though, as some simply cannot survive under the same kind of environment. They’re like plants that just can’t survive a certain type of soil.
We have a whole gamut of Asian-American children with each psyche unique and a whole gamut of Tiger parents with varying parenting methods and dreams and hopes. It’s the combination of one such child with one such Tiger parents that will determine the positive or negative outcome. Some “make” it (whatever that means) and learn later to appreciate their Tiger parents’ parenting methods while some walk in front of an oncoming train to seek a permanent relief from hell. Between these two extremes is where most Asian-Americans kids (and non-Asians with similar upbringings) find themselves in, trying to survive to their best ability.
It’s extremely critical for parents, in our ever increasing competitive world, to not only KNOW THYSELF but KNOW THY CHILD and then engineer the parenting methods that would bear the most healthy and delicious fruits. Personally, I never pushed my kids as I don’t like the pushy methods. I relied more on motivating and coaching as my primary methods. Nietzsche wrote, “when one knows why of life, one can take any how.” I tried to instill the “why” part and allow the kids to find motivations themselves. If they didn’t find the motivation themselves, then we moved on without pushing it. When my parents became desperate with my lack of interest (I should say “total lack of”) in studying, they found various tutors for me. One day, when this one frustrated tutor gave me the ultimatum of either following his instructions or be prepare for a physical punishment, I chose the punishment. He became enraged and quickly went outside to a nearby tree, broke off one branch, and proceeded to strike the back of my thighs with it as hard as he can, not knowing that my thighs had been bruised black and purple from the daily beatings at school. When a Tiger parent tries to instill too much of “any how” part without the “why” part, the disconnect can be costly.
Parenting is a balancing act, sure, and it’d require knowing oneself and knowing one’s child in order to make it an effective balancing act. Tiger parenting often ignores this very balancing philosophy.
@TiggerDad What a humbling and amazing story. I can’t possibly imagine my own children surviving that kind of abuse. Although, the sad truth is that you don’t know what your children are capable of until they are faced with adversity. I learned a lot about how strong my own kids are after their father passed away. They showed a strength they I never knew the had.
I really agree completely with you, that different children require different parenting styles. Someone once said that your kids teach you how to parent them. Its true. I have three girls and they are all wonderful and all different. D1 was fairly self directed. I didn’t realize it at the time, but the very fact that I was so proud of her when she got good grades was actually fairly pressure inducing. She wanted to please so desperately even though I never ever withheld love or affection. I never intended it, but she came to believe that I was only happy with her when she got high marks. I think D2 feels some of that too, despite what I say! D2 is extremely motivated but needs more guidance with organization – I had to be more on top of her homework.
D3 is about to turn 7 and presents her own unique challenges. She is extremely smart but resistant in ways the older girls never were. I don’t think she is nearly as interested in “pleasing” me, which is a completely new experience. We have homework “issues” which I never had with the others. It is amazing how humbling that can be. Any delusions I used to have that my kids’ wonderful temperaments were due to my great parenting skills have long dissolved away. If I end up being more strict and pushing a bit more this time around, it will not be because that is my preferred method of child rearing.
Of course parents can do much to help our kids realize their potential, and we can do a lot more to cripple them with poor parenting. But for the most part, our kids are who they are. You can’t turn a potato into a carrot no matter how good a gardener you are. I think its a mistake to assume too much credit for your kids’ successes and its a mistake to except too much blame for their failures. It is especially important for us parents not to judge each other too harshly. Its very easy to blame the parents for kids who are unruly or unsuccessful, but until you have lived in that home, you really have no idea.
Finally, as I have said before, its easy for me to take a more laid back approach because I know my children will have options whether they end up as top students or not. I don’t know what I would be doing if their only chance at attending college was to be a top student with top stats. I thank my lucky stars every day that is not our situation.
External motivation works in the short term. Internal motivation works in the long run.