The Last of the Tiger Parents?

@gallentjill

You pointed out an interesting aspect of parenting that I’ve come to wrestle with myself, namely, a sudden or gradual realization about your child that catches you by surprise or even shock. That’s what I meant by “know thyself” and “know thy child.”

I started my boys in piano and violin when they were 6 and 5. The younger one displayed lots of enthusiasm and desire to pick up these instruments, although he definitely favored electric guitar from the beginning. The older one seemed interested, didn’t show any signs of disinterest or dislike, and did his daily practices along with his younger brother. Both looked happy not only with learning these instruments but especially when they later joined the local youth symphony at its very beginning level group. All was fine, all went well, and they really seemed to thrive in music, both sharing first chair when they moved up to an intermediate level group.

Then, as they got older and when things started to become evident that the younger one’s musical ability, aptitude and enthusiasm were fast outpacing the older one, hitherto unforeseen tension started to build up between them. The fact that the younger one had an equal natural ability in chess compounded the tension as the younger one amassed chess trophies, eventually becoming the state scholastic chess champion. The older one couldn’t beat the younger one although he was an above average chess player himself.

When I reflect back on that early time period, I think there were build up of deep resentments on the part of the older one. When I recognized it, I had them quit competitive chess but allowed them to play recreational chess should they wish to continue with chess at all. The older one never touched the chess board again after that while the younger one continued to play and established the chess club once he entered high school. He did enter the district chess tournaments a couple of years for fun when his busy high school schedule would allow.

In high school, both my sons became efficient tennis players enough to be first singles players and captain in their senior year, respectively. I was a passionate tennis player when I was a young man, and I introduced the boys to tennis early on and coached them the first few years. One day, though, when the older one was a senior in high school, he caught me by total surprise when he exhibited a sudden emotional outburst that his dream had always been to be a professional tennis player and that music was just a waste of his time and effort. In the state of being shocked by this sudden revelation, all I could do was to let him know that I had NO idea since he had shown absolutely no hint, let alone any expressions to that effect after all these years. He wouldn’t have any of my explanations, though. Of course, I was extremely hurt being not only blindsided by this sudden revelation but also being accused of having – basically – failed as dad.

When our emotions were collected the next day, I told him that he doesn’t have to pursue music and that I’d support him with his passion in tennis with private lessons from a local professional coach, indoor tennis club membership fees for winter tennis, etc. That very day, he dropped music all together and has never picked up either instruments. I was stunned. Not because he decided to drop anything that has to do with music but by the revelation of how WRONG I was about what my own son’s inner happenings. If I had known about this just a few years back, as I told my wife, my life would have been so much easier. I didn’t have to drive him – not to mention any of my younger son’s own music related activities – to his weekly music lessons (during winter, the road to his private teacher’s place was treacherous, and having to sit in the car for an hour for his lesson to finish wasn’t all that fun, either), rehearsals, concerts, recitals, workshops and regional and state orchestras, and most of these activities were at least an hour to two hour drive away. All for naught. The only consolation was the thought that we’re now on the right path. Still, my son resents me deeply to this day, and there’s nothing I can do about that. When he gets older and become a parent himself with kids of his own, perhaps he’ll realize that parents are fallible beings with no power of omniscience.

I’d say I have become a better “sleuth,” though, in deciphering what’s going on in my boys’ minds. When I recognized that my second son was placing all kinds of pressures on himself in order please us, we pulled him back. When he mentioned the word, “valedictorian,” I told him to forget it and opposed the idea of entering that race. When I explained to him how meaningless that was for him, he let it go. If I had encouraged him otherwise, he’d have had much more stressful high school experience.

Both my boys are now finishing up their gap year. For the older one, I encouraged him to take the gap year to have private lessons from a local professional and play tennis to his heart’s content. As a pre-med, he could also use his free time building up his resume, and so he’s been. Thanks to his tennis pro teacher, my son gave up the idea of becoming a tennis professional. No explanation from me would have helped regarding becoming a pro athlete in any field. A stranger’s explanation, boom! things register! My younger son spent this gap year being his older brother’s tennis partner, making music for his YouTube channel, teaching private violin and piano lessons to young kids, volunteering at a local hospital’s ER Dept as well as performing violin to patients and their visitors. This gap year has been a great family bonding year, mending and healing and lots of family fun times traveling, camping and relaxing.

As a confident parent who had always taken much pride in being a keen and astute observer of the inner makeup of human beings, how little did I know of my own children and how little still do I know. At least, I think we’re on the right track…

I think that one reason we never adopted a Tiger approach with our children – even though we had ambitions for them – is that we regarded childhood as mainly a time for exploration, experimentation, self-teaching, and self-discovery. Our goal was not for our kids to be “THE best,” but rather for them to discover their talents and interests through exploration and trial-and-error. They participated in extracurricular courses and clubs in art, music, dance, sports, and math. (In a more recent era I’m sure it would have included computer coding. Instead they acquired these skills later.)

We didn’t know what the kids were capable of. Nor did they. But they were smart. And so by trial and error, and opportunities for self-discovery, they found their talents. Two very different mentalities: one a math-stathead; the other an artist.

With both children, if we had acted like tiger parents, we would have failed them. They had their own inner drives. They were also very stubborn. We could give them tools and opportunities for discovery, keep them busy; but they were spending 7 hours a day in school, out of our control. We wanted them to do well but we never set GPA or class rank goals. What class rank should a kid who has great artistic talent have? Better she should have extra opportunities (e.g., summer programs) to develop that talent than that she focus on across-the-board A’s in everything. What class rank should the kid who is a math-head have? Better he should focus on math and on developing and applying tools for math and applied statistical analysis. After college (UChicago), he’s made a career out of it – based on his math and his ability to write. He is self-driven. We didn’t tiger him into it.

The artistic child went to art school (RISD), later earned an MBA (at a top-10 business school), and now works promoting entrepreneurial startups with a focus on sustainable design. It took a while for her to find this path, but to get there she had to be able to perform well on multiple dimensions, including math (and the GMAT). Her high school class rank? A-/B+ somewhere. Her art portfolio? Good enough to be admitted to several top art schools and earn a BFA from arguably the best one. Her broader skills, combined with focused prep, got her a high score on the GMAT and into a top MBA program.

In sum, we provided parenting: coaching and encouragement. We paid for their college. They did the rest. Their accomplishments are self-made.

Asian immigrants to the US are highly skewed toward those with high educational attainment. The kids of any group similarly selected for educational attainment, immigrant or otherwise, Asian or otherwise, are likely to be high achievers in school, whether the parents be are tiger parents or not.

That’s a good one, HSP. I just told my kids to run their own race, not others’.

@HSP2019
I kind of agree with you, I guess it is easier to “point fingers” at parenting styles that seem foreign/extreme. I often find the American style of “every child is above average” to be quite phony when in reality, everyone might be different but most are not special. And isn’t it a high time to realize that it is OK (and pretty lucky tbh) to be regular/average?!

Amy Chua’s strict and often unreasonable parenting rules definitely won’t work in my family, but from all the signs I could “see” (articles written by and of her two daughters), they seem to be well-adjusted (and of course seemingly acomplished) young ladies. For every burned out Asian kid, I could counter with a bored/drugged out Caucasian one.

Let’s not make it into an “Eastern/Western” cultural thing, as many posters have stated before, there are many cultures who value education, even if the path of reaching the goal could be very different.

@HSP2019

The altruistic answer is that people care about the suffering of others and that tiger parenting, as generally understood, seems to inflict an inordinate amount of suffering and anxiety on these kids.

The selfish answer is that tiger parenting changes the game for everyone, by raising the bar higher than the rest may want to reach. Suddenly, you can’t be at the top of the class by the methods that used to work. Just working hard in class, participating in sports, school and community activities and having a “normal” childhood isn’t enough anymore. You need to be three or four grades ahead in math, win competitions, spend summers in cram schools rather then camping or working as a camp counselor. Parents who want their children to have the kind of childhoods they remember suddenly panic that their kids will fall behind. They hear horror stories of the way school works in Asian countries and desperately don’t want that here. At the same time, they still want their kids to get into good colleges – they just want it to happen in the way that it used to happen “in the good old days.”

Kids succeed in college and beyond because of their innate abilities and hard work, besides external and environmental factors. For kids lacking good work ethics, tiger parenting may help to some limited degree. Pushing kids to do things they aren’t interested or have a natural talent for would be highly counterproductive. Tiger parenting does nothing for kids’ innate abilities. When some of these kids who’re already operating at their maximum capabilities are faced with more demanding tasks in a more challenging environment, they can’t shift into a higher gear and run out their reserve capacity. Worse of all, tiger parenting also tends to cause misallocation of precious human resources, with kids going into fields where they aren’t most suitable and their talents can’t be used most effectively.

@HSP2019

In my earlier post, I made the point that there are all spectrum of Tiger Parents and their children with emotional, personality and intellectual makeup. To put it most simply, if Tiger parenting produces good results, then that particular parenting works for that particular family. I think of the world-renowned pianist, Lang Lang, and his case as one that seemed to have worked out extremely well. Of course, he’s world famous and highly successful, but I don’t know anything about his current life. It was fascinating to study his autobiography, “Journey of a Thousand Miles: My Story.” I often think, what if Lang Lang had a very different aptitude, personality, emotional and intellectual makeup, while every other condition remains the same, including his Tiger Dad’s parenting methods, would he have turned out the way he did? Pointless, yes, but interesting nevertheless to think about.

If the same Tiger parenting method produces ill effects, however, including the story of my son’s youth symphony stand partner who became physically hostile to my son due to her Tiger Mom’s incessant pressure, crying on her piano teacher’s shoulders for all her misery brought on by her Tiger Mom, or other stories of far more grave situations, including suicides, then that’s a profound concern. This is in no way, shape or form my dictation of how others should do their parenting. On Father’s Day, I was at a local restaurant celebrating the day with my family. Right next to us were a couple with an infant baby that looked less than a month old. While the couple ate, the baby was wailing his or her heart out and I can see the face had turned all purple due to prolonged crying. The couple, in spite of continuous crying, didn’t attempt to assuage the baby whatsoever and couldn’t care less about how her baby’s non-stop crying is affecting others around the table. I happen to love babies, but I’d have liked to celebrate the Father’s Day in a more peaceful environment. The couple did not care for the baby nor had any concern for those around them. They continue to eat at leisurely pace and when done, picked up the baby and left. My wife and I talked about their parenting style and we did have our opinions, but we didn’t go over to the table to dictate how the couple should do their parenting. And that’s what we’re doing here discussing the Tiger parenting.

As for your comment: “This is reverse Tiger Parenting. If you believe in not pushing your kids, you have to uniformly do it. You can’t just push them to do things that you are in favor of (like ignoring class rank) and then claim that you are not a Tiger Parent.”

First, I did specifically state earlier that I never “pushed” my kids; rather, I prefer the method of motivating and coaching. When I told my son to forget about entering the valedictorian race, that was as a coach. Like any coach, I discussed the merits of, or lack of, entering that meaningless race. My son doesn’t always agree with me. He’s a head-strong person, one of the traits I like about him, but in this case, my explanations did register in his brain as correct and acceptable. In other times, such as when he decided to take on volleyball ON TOP of his plate that had been overflowing with all the things that were going on at the height of the first semester senior year stress, he decided to ignore my counsel and went ahead and added volleyball to his schedule. I was resentful, because, for one, I knew this meant for him sleeping less, more chance of being stressed out, burnt out, AND it turned out that all the volleyball meets were taking place an hour drive away.

Second, I never said I was either a Tiger parent or not. As I’ve already stated earlier, my CC user name is “TiggerDad” for a good reason.

@gallentjill
In the good old days, do you mean the times when women were encouraged to study home economics and be content with stay-at-home roles after marriage? Or segregated schools? Or “holistic approach” as a code word to keep Jewish students out? Just kidding! I have always thought we Americans value competitions!

Like it or not, many Chinese and Indian students (in their own counties) are far more superior in STEM fields than many American ones, and they would eat our lunch if we don’t change the way we teach and learn. Horror stories of Asian cram schools are abundant, but I often found the dismal math skills of many American high school students to be appalling and embarrassing, the never-ending bullying stories heart-broken, and the often occurring school shootings horrifying.

@makemesmart By the good old days, I meant when I was a kid and simply doing a reasonable amount of work, taking high school classes in the regular order and participating in your school activities was all that was expected. (By the way, I’m young enough that even in my day, girls were encouraged to be whatever they wanted.)

Your observation that American students are behind in STEM is a complicated one. I have read that other countries don’t allow all students to take standardized tests, but only the ones most likely to score well. Even so, I am not convinced of the importance of doing everything earlier. The US has long been an engine of innovation and industry even though our kids might take calculus in 12th grade, or “gasp” not until college! Does having 9th graders take calculus improve anything in the long run? Sooner isn’t always better. And sometimes it comes at the expense of other qualities that contribute to success in many different fields. That said, there are kids who are so gifted and so passionate that they really do need to be accelerated as much as possible. I know one of these boys very well. He quickly used up all the math at his school because he just loved it. His parents had no intention of pushing him. I have absolutely no problem with that. As much as I don’t want kids pushed beyond their tolerance, I absolutely don’t want kids to be held back.

In any case, I was really just trying to answer a hypothetical question. Personally, I’m not worried for my own kids. They are doing fine. Fine grades, good scores, a happy childhood. I have no desire for my kids to attend an elite university unless there is some great need. I did make some choices to minimize the impact of tiger parenting on my kids. We specifically chose a school district that does not rank. That way, my kids don’t ever have to look at their class mates as competitors. I think much of the general antipathy toward tiger parenting comes from the toxic practice of ranking. What good does it do any kid to know exactly where they stand in numerical order? The kids who work hard and achieve (whether tiger parented or otherwise) are role models for my kids. They are something to strive for and because they will never know their exact rank, they don’t have to resent anyone.

[Vast oversimplification coming]

I like growing roses. There are two philosophies about when to fertilize roses: a) pat on the back, b) kick in the pants.

Some rosarians say that the best growth strategy is to wait in the late Spring until the rose plants have set out buds on their own. Then fertilize. That’s a “pat on the back.” Others say that it’s best to fertilize the roses early, before the buds are well defined or matured. That’s a “kick in the pants” approach.

With newborn children, you recognize some things when the kids are just days old. They have distinct personalities. They observe things around them. They react to touch and to eye contact. They may be active or passive. They may want hugging; or, they may struggle against constraints and not be very huggable. (We had one of each type.) They may want to be held upright; they may want to be swaddled and kept more horizontal. An alert parent recognizes their baby’s reactions, and decides how much external stimulation to provide, and when.

We had high expectations for our kids and wanted them to become the best they could be. We exposed them to many different things, and we let them show us what they could do. We learned what their talents were, we put opportunities in front of them, and we patted them on the back.

@mackinaw

A good analogy. I always think of parenting like planting. Good parenting is like providing a fertile soil and proper nourishing. Plants themselves to the rest. Your kids sound like they were well provided with both, so my hats off to you, congratulations. :slight_smile:

@HSP2019

I don’t think this is exactly what I meant. The way you phrase it makes it sound like racism (or perhaps I’m misreading you?). I think it has more to do with change itself then with any resentment towards a specific group. I think its natural to want to raise your children the way you were raised (assuming you enjoyed your childhood!).

Personally, although I have grave doubts about the wisdom of pushing kids so hard to achieve certain milestones earlier, I have no problem with any parenting method that works for a particular family. While I’m sure that some “tiger” methods can be abusive, I am sure that the vast majority are not. Moreover, it is very possible to be too hands off – where being “laid back” borders on neglect.

People need to understand that we live in a country with a vast array of choices. No one has to compete with the tiger kids or adopt their parenting methods. But we all have to accept that none of our kids are guaranteed any particular admission to any particular university. I have chosen to raise my kids with the mixture of “pushing” and “stepping back” that works for me. I fully accept that they might have gone further in math if I had made that a priority. They might have had a slightly higher GPA. I don’t care. I am not in competition with the tiger kids because I don’t feel the need for my kids to attend any particular university. I believe my children are well equipped both academically and emotionally to succeed in whatever they choose to do. I believe they can achieve that from any of the hundreds of colleges that would welcome them with open arms. In the end, isn’t that what we all want?

@hsp2019 I am not in any way in favor of holding kids back. The kids who love math, have a talent and a passion for it and seek it out should go as far and as fast as they can. I just don’t think it is necessary for everyone to feel they need to meet an every rising bar. But, as I said, each family needs to decide that on their own.

It also varies child to child. Some kids need more pushing then others. I am not in the camp that believes kids should all be left to their own devices. But some kids don’t belong in summer cram programs. Some of them should go to girl scout camp and learn to love nature, ride horses, make friends, swim and do arts and crafts. I think the fear is that the tiger parents will “force” everyone to take up their practices. But, honestly, thats our choice isn’t it. As I keep saying, no one needs to go to Harvard.

@HSP2019

Yes. I agree. It is also very natural to be sad when things you love change. Sadness doesn’t exempt people from the need to adapt, but it does answer the question of why people may resent tiger parenting.

My guess is that the Asian parents have their own sadness to deal with as their children are exposed to the different parenting styles of their american peers. Just as society constantly has to adapt to new immigrant groups, immigrant groups have to resign themselves to the fact that their children or their grandchildren will soon come to resemble the society around them. So, in the end, both groups change, adapt and move forward. There is a very well known pattern of generational assimilation.

I agree that we must all be respectful of each other and that there is much to learn from each other as well. It has been eye opening to me to see how much kids can achieve. I don’t think I will ever push my kids to tiger levels, but I have a 7 year old who seems to love and have a talent for math. I will expose her to more extra math opportunities because I have learned about them from “tiger” families.

I think they have also prompted all of our kids to stretch more in a good way. No one from my generation did scientific research in high school, but it is common now. My rising senior is working this summer at a lab at a prominent medical school. She loves it. I truly believe those opportunities exist in part because “tiger” families paved the way. Most of the other kids doing those things in her school are Asian.

So, despite my misgivings about too much pressure on our kids, I absolutely see the benefits as well and I have great respect for hard working families of all kinds.

If a kid is a math prodigy, acceleration in math education is obviously the right thing to do. Same if s/he is truly gifted in any other subject or area. But that’s not tiger parenting, is it?

@hsp2019

You didn’t post the rest of my statement. I wrote:

We agree. No one is forced to adopt other styles. We all have accept the consequences of our actions. And luckily, this is a country with a plethora of options for our kids. Wither tiger parented or not.

I’ve seen numerous instances myself in college and graduate school (which are among the most rigorous), and I’ve also seen evidences of that later in life among friends, colleagues, and other acquaintances.

Society won’t function well if we’re all mathematicians, pianists, technologists or investment bankers, even if we were all as talented as Terence Tao in math, or Lang Lang in playing piano.

@HSP2019 - “Given such a mindset, I was really surprised why there is so much discussion about Tiger Parenting among those who purportedly don’t practice it.”

Remember when the book, “Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother” by Amy Chua first came out? It struck a nerve for a variety of reasons, and since it’s publication in 2011, people still continue to write about the Tiger Mom syndrome today as in the OP’s linked NYT article.

Whether you practice Tiger parenting or not, people do still discuss it because of – and this is my personal conjecture – following reasons:

  1. Parenting has always been a relevant topic in general in this country as elsewhere, and Tiger parenting offers a new and alternative and perhaps even exotic methods. In fact, that WAS Chua’s purpose for writing that book in the first place. She was just brimming with mother’s pride and self-congratulatory mood when she wrote the book without any self-reflection and got caught off guard by so many negative reactions among the general public. It was embarrassing and quite awkward having to witness her self-defensive mode on various TV shows.

  2. The book with the Tiger parenting theme was extremely well-timed at the very time when people were beginning to scrutinize the Asian-American academic success stories. Every parent, understandably, wanted that piece of successful pie, too, after all. Should I, for access to that pie, adapt the Tiger parenting methods with my own kids? That’s a part of what’s been floating in many parents’s thoughts, I’m sure.

  3. This book allowed much venting opportunity among many Asian-American students with their own individual stories of their own Tiger parents and how they were affected. YouTube is full of such testimonials, even comedy shows that made fun of their own parents.

  4. People took notice of not only the success side but also the tragic side of the same coin with Asian-American teen suicides in high schools and in college across the country. They were rightly or wrongly attributed to the Tiger parents.

Among non-Asians here on this thread, it seems like the majority, although they “purportedly don’t practice” Tiger parenting, nevertheless sees it as a fringe or side benefit to their own children by associating and rubbing shoulders with these Tiger kids. So, that in itself, I find, quite interesting. If it works to your benefit, why not?

As a first-generation Asian-American, I’ve always been interested in the “Asian way” and the “American way” for as long as I can remember. When I decided to become a parent myself, I did lots of soul searching beginning with the question of whether I should even have any children at all. How can I bear the heavy responsibility of bringing new beings into the world that seems to be most certainly going in the direction of self-destruction with human beings becoming ever corrupt and evil? Later, when I had my boys, the question turned into how to parent most effectively. I did study, along with the aforementioned case of Lang Lang and numerous other books and articles, to find my own answer. Perhaps I may even have adopted the Tiger parenting method from time to time, early on and all too briefly, as a way of trying to find my own parenting method that works for me the best. All parenting is in a way an experimentation as no one was born a perfect parent right from the get go. We make mistakes and fumble our way at times.

In any case, whether one practices Tiger parenting or purportedly not, a critical examination and discussion of it can only do us all good.

lol @HSP2019 I love your “tiger parent” analogy!

@gallentjill
Speaking of math, it is actually very critical to teach math skills early, and even though some of the rote learning of Asian countries had long being ridiculed, it has been shown that some rote learning to get kids extremely proficient in arithmetic skills early on are very conductive in learning higher math skills (and not afraid of math in general) later on. Additionally, extraordinary math abilities (and physics to a lesser degree) peak early in life (before 40 yo).

Finally, one of the greatest scientific and technological growths America had experienced was during the wwii period when lots of European scholars and scientists migrated over.

I think we all agree that parenting should be about providing the kids with the opportunities to discover their talents/strength while at the same time help them to learn/develop life skills that they could use to become independent human beings.

Tiger parenting style is more like the autocratic regime of China and Singapore, you may not like it, but it sure gets the jobs done fast. :))