The legacy of the dropout

Colleges & Universities A-Z Columbia University
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<p>"Columbia’s legacy of high-achieving alumni is just as important a part of its allure as any other of its hackneyed attractions such as Nobel-winning professors, interaction with the nation’s best and brightest student minds, and of course, the Core Curriculum. At a full cost of over $200,000, a Columbia University diploma is one expensive piece of stationery. But year after year, the applications keep pouring in. The door that leads to greatness can be a heavy one—the seduction of the Ivies is the belief in the schools’ leverage in getting that door open. As evidence of its greatness, Columbia boasts such graduates as Attorney General Eric Holder, CC ’73, former Supreme Court Justice Benjamin Cardozo, CC 1889, and folk rock artist Art Garfunkel, CC ’62.</p>

<p>But among the hundreds of influential degree holders, some of the most famous Columbians never even graduated from here . . ."</p>

<p>The</a> legacy of the dropout</p>

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<p>But how many people dropped out and didn’t achieve celebrity-like statuses?</p>

<p>These kind of articles are as meaningless as those along the lines of “How to succeed without a college degree” or “The truth about Ivy League colleges.”</p>

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<p>“But how many people dropped out and didn’t achieve celebrity-like statuses?”</p>

<p>How many people graduated and achieved celebrity-like statuses?
i think the designation of a “celebrity status” is a bit irrelevant. it’s not about whether or not the dropout is a celebrity, it’s how successful the dropout is relative to the graduate.</p>

<p>i know tons of people who dropped out who make loads of money. of course, many people don’t evaluate success by the amount of money made. but then everyone spits their own opinions and a huge mess ensues.</p>

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<p>one thing that is not known is that for a long time it was widely held that continuing on and graduating was not necessary for success. in fact our obsession with graduating is more of a recent phenomenon. </p>

<p>you used to be able to go to school, do well, meet influential folks, and if you found a job while you were at school you would leave. hell most of the lawyers in the 19th century never went to law school, but apprenticed.</p>

<p>the ‘dropout’ in modern parlance really can’t be projected backward to individuals from the 18th 19th or early 20th centuries.</p>

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<p>Adgeek is absolutely right. Spec columnists often write ridiculous and somewhat irreverent pieces (see the recent one that purported to link the move to the Common App with the final approval of the Manhattanville expansion), but the idea contained in this piece is just plain wrong. Just as different cultures have practices that seem similar, but actually serve very different purposes, so different times accord vastly different significance to institutions that appear to be the same. The “Columbia” that existed in the 18th century, and even the mid-20th century, was very different from the Columbia that exists now. You didn’t need a college degree to be successful then the way you do now. </p>

<p>Sure, even in the 21st century, some celebrities and entrepreneurs “drop out” of elite colleges after a few years, but they are few and far between. The majority of college drop-outs are those at community colleges and massive state school systems who end up dropping out either because they cannot handle the workload or because they need to enter the workforce. The average college drop-out is not Mark Zuckerberg, and certainly not Theodore Roosevelt, and it’s dishonest and potentially counterproductive to pretend that they are. I don’t begrudge the Spec columnists for trying to have some fun, but it’s important to keep in mind the reality that exists outside the Columbia bubble.</p>

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<p>@gshak</p>

<p>The article is a load of fail in concocting pretentious benefits for the dropout. The author writes “Who knows who among us may be worthy of the title.” Is he talking about the 40% of American college students who do so every year? </p>

<p>Like pwoods mentioned, the average college dropout is not Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates. Far from them.</p>

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<p>a person who has the intrinsic and nurtured qualities to be successful will succeed- degree or no degree.</p>

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<p>Can you tell me what these “intrinsic and nurtured qualities” are? I would love to go drop out when I feel comfortable that I have them.</p>

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<p>no, i cant tell you what they are.
the fact that youre asking is a bit absurd.
not only does every profession/job require different skills, but every person is different in the application of their skills in the same field.
one artist is abstract, and another is concrete. yet they both manage to sell.
one basketball player is a shooter, and one is a passer, yet they both manage to get drafted into the nba.</p>

<p>an intrinsic quality is one that is inborn, like raw talent (brains, athleticism, etc.)
a nurtured quality is one that is built upon, or one that is instilled in a person. </p>

<p>if a person goes through all the schooling necessary to become a doctor, gets his/her degree, specializes, etc. but is not sociable or likable, he/she will NOT attract customers.</p>

<p>a person that is likable and sociable (the “right” qualities) with no degree can be a more successful businessman than a wharton grad. </p>

<p>of course, in order for one to become a doctor one has to finish the schooling.
to be successful, however, one does NOT need a degree.
furthermore, as my points conclude, a degree does NOT guarantee success.</p>

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<p>I think it’s funny that the mention famous graduates and don’t mention Barack Obama, our current president (CC’83). Maybe because he transferred?</p>

<p>But anyway, if you can create a product or a service that everyone wants, nobody is going to care whether you went to college much less where you dropped out from. Mark Zuckerberg would’ve been successful regardless of whether he dropped out of Harvard or UMass-Amherst because he created a service/product that people wanted. Bill Gates would’ve been successful regardless of whether he had invented Macs after he dropped out of Stanford or Chico State.</p>

<p>The fact that they were able to get into those schools was a testament to their own skills and prowess - and not the schools’ ‘shaping’ them into something.</p>

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<p>You made me chuckle. One, you didn’t pick up my sarcasm. Two, don’t try to fight a losing battle by switching the argument to “can most dropouts succeed” to “does a degree guarantee success.” </p>

<p>And no one truly cares if his doctor is “sociable or likable.” I visit my doctors based on location, if he’s good at his treatments and if he accepts my insurance, not because he has more friends on Facebook than the other one in town.</p>

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<p>I stumbled across this petty fight…
@Light Airen … you sound really pretentious to me.
Your argument is fine, but you sir, are very rude. I understand this is a public forum, where you have this aura of invicibility behind a computer screen [as do I], but this vituperation only serves to create bad karma around your name. I hope you have already been accepted</p>

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<p>who exactly are you quoting when you say “can most dropouts succeed”?
because i dont believe anyone has stated that.
the argument was, and still is, whether or not dropouts CAN succeed. the article stands as evidence that dropouts CAN and HAVE succeeded.
the other side of that, obviously, would be whether or not a degree guarantees success.</p>

<p>“no one truly cares if his doctor is sociable or likable”. i care, and so do many other people (hence the interest of medical programs to recruit sociable people). and your comment about facebook supports robinson’s claim- you are incredibly pretentious.</p>

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<p>Let’s end the ad hominem attacks and stick to the argument.</p>

<p>The article does not merely state that dropouts can succeed. It goes beyond that point and actually encourages the act. Of course hyperbole was implemented throughout the essay, but the underlying message the author was putting on the table was “drop out if you are ambitious/bold enough.” And that’s a no-no.</p>

<p>If you still think about whether the argument is “whether or not dropouts CAN succeed,” read post #6. I clearly listed two peopled who dropped out and became multibillionaires and therefore agree with you on that point. However, your average drop out in America today is not someone with a vision to create an enormous corporation, but did so for these reasons:</p>

<p>[Top</a> 11 Reasons Why Students Drop Out of College | The Digital Student Blog](<a href=“http://blog.gocollege.com/2007/11/23/reasons-why-college-dropouts-exist/]Top”>Top 11 Reasons Why Students Drop out of College | The Digital Student Blog @ The Digital Student Blog)</p>

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<p>1) robinson…um thanks for your contribution/the retribution to light airen? I guess we can’t use sarcasm when we’re debating about controversial issues can we? And lmao, think this is petty? Then you really haven’t been on college confidential much. Go look at other forums and debates. If you can’t contribute anything meaningful to the discussion, don’t say anything. Sorry I’m a bit annoyed.</p>

<p>2) gshak, I think youre arguments are bit flawed in several areas. First, you made it sound like people who are “unsocial” are failures, even if they’re the smartest people in the world. Let me remind you though, that Mark Zuckerberg (according to Time magazine and bunch of others) is considered “socially awkward.” Einstein was “socially awkward.” Second, while dropping out does not mean you won’t succeed, the chances of succeeding are far less if you drop out. Think Zuckerberg would have dropped out if he didn’t develop his softwares first and was SURE that he could make big bucks without a degree? If you can be that confident, sure go ahead and drop out. Third, again, while your argument on “intrinsic quality” being enough may be true in some cases (esp. with athletes) but not with others. Funny you would mention “doctors” so much; if you don’t have a degree as a doctor, even if youre the best physican in the world, I doubt people would go to you if they found out you didn’t even graduate college. </p>

<p>3) Light Airen…agreed bro.</p>

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<p>I personally believe that the drop-out statement does not mean that a person obtain “success” just like that. I believe that a person who drops out depends on for what reason. If a person was lazy, or completely unmotivated, then of course he/she won’t succeed (or have a very difficult time doing so).</p>

<p>But, most accomplished people who drop out is due to a passion/dedication/love for something that required them to commit time that caused them to drop out. Thus why famous billionaires that have dropped out became as how they become. Such as Steve Jobs, who dropped out of Reed College and did things out of interest</p>

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<p>@Light Airen
Spec obviously wasn’t encouraging people to drop out, but the glossing over of why people actually drop out encourages anti-intellectualism, like radical libertarian Peter Thiel’s “scholarship” for (inevitably middle-class and white) wannabe tech entrepreneurs: [Hyper-libertarian</a> Facebook billionaire Peter Thiel’s appalling plan to pay students to quit college. - By Jacob Weisberg - Slate Magazine](<a href=“http://www.slate.com/id/2271265/]Hyper-libertarian”>Hyper-libertarian Facebook billionaire Peter Thiel's appalling plan to pay students to quit college.)</p>

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<p>thank you pwoods for clarifying that. its nice to have an objective opinion with actual experience in deciphering articles- not a high school kid who pretends to be omniscient. </p>

<p>mark zuckerberg and albert einstein are/were geniuses. and guess what- for the most part- either their projects required no sociability, or they had others do it for them!
zuckerberg had shawn parker (who btw is very well spoken), and einstein was a freak who, although great at science, would have, in all probability, not been able to succeed as a physician or a lawyer or a politician. </p>

<p>thank you for jumping on the bandwagon collegeftw, i just wonder how much your concurrence with lightairen would have been swayed had she not had “columbia 15” under her name. and btw, i did concede to the degree argument already. obviously a physician requires a degree to practice (otherwise a physician doesn’t exist!). my point was that the intrinsic and, in some cases nurtured, quality of sociability plays a large role in determining the success of a doctor. other things go into it as well- how good of a businessman he is, his looks, etc.</p>

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<p>^ cool story bro, but all I read were your and light airen’s posts. Sorry if it seemed like I was bandwagon, will you forgive me?</p>

<p>Okay thanks for conceding Zuckerberg and Einstein, your previous posts didnt mention them and grouped all socially awkward people as less successful so I was just pointing it out. And saying that Zuckerberg, as CEO of a company, has no social skills and makign it look like all he did was create a program and all the interactions and broadcasting was made by this shawn is kinda disparaging Zuckerberg, don’t you think? I mean, as the CEO, I"m pretty sure you need a degree of social skills, considering all the meetings, media coverage, and all sorts of other interactions you would have to perform…but w/e I guess your changing yoru argument now to only the jobs that need “social” skills, whatever that means. Also, your bashing on Einstein was pretty uncalled for, and I guess your saying engineers are “inferior” to doctors, lawyers, and politicians socially</p>

<p>Hm just because Light Airen is also going to Columbia doesnt do anything to the fact that I think your arguments were weird and light airen’s sound more plausible…that’s like saying I’m a racist if I agreed with a fellow asian over a white peer and that the only reason I did so was because I had this degree of commonality with the one person…</p>

<p>Sorry for not catching youre previous “concede,” I’m pretty sure you didn’t put down in words that jobs like medical doctor needed degrees. I’m couldn’t understand that you implied it either, since all you did was say the fact that you don’t need a degree to be successful over and over again. My bad.</p>

<p>I agree with you that intrinsic qualities play a “large” role in some jobs, but I don’t agree with your previous posts taht it plays a “largER” role than holding a degree (exception: athletes…). If I wanted to be anything except an athlete, hey I would rather be the world’s most socially awkward person and have a degree from Columbia than the world’s most social person with nothing more than a high school diploma. Just saying. </p>

<p>I don’t really understand why you would put “in some cases, nurtured”…so if you go to college, isn’t that basically nurturing these “qualities” you speak of? Wouldn’t finishing college make you a better businessman?</p>

<p>For 95% of the cases, getting a degree is way more beneficial than dropping out and relying on these inherent qualiites gshak seems to rely so much on. Unless your a professional bound athlete, or have developed revolutionary programs (like, of course, Microsoft) then you better off in the long run just doing that extra 4 years of school. Any other exceptions you can think of Gshak?</p>

<p>Also, of course, thanks for the elitist comment at the beginning. I guess your implying now that if you don’t have the experience, don’t comment on it. Hear that high school students across college confidential? Gshak doesn’t want your opinions, so if you haven’t been to college yet, don’t post anything related to college. I’ll keep that in mind as well Gshak. Thanks buddy</p>

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<p>I’m loving the quality of gshak13’s posts. I’m first called “pretentious,” and then “a high school kid who pretends to be omniscient.” When another person agrees with my post, you call him out for “jumping on the bandwagon” on the basis of “Columbia '15.” For all I knew, you could have been a recent admit, student or alumnus as well. Do some serious reconsideration of what you want to say before you type. </p>

<p>I’ll only laugh at your posts from now on because it seems you love diverting you attention from the debate to personal attacks. </p>

<p>My being of a high school student does not matter at all in regards to whether or not I can produce an “objective opinion.” From this thread here, <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1068945-can-suny-binghamton-considered-my-safety.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1068945-can-suny-binghamton-considered-my-safety.html&lt;/a&gt;, it seems you are one as well. Double-standards, no?</p>