<p>andrew d. we allied with Iraq against Iran</p>
<p>we allied with the USSR agaisnt Germany...</p>
<p>we allied with the freakin TALIBAN against USSR. </p>
<p>different places pose different threats at different times. DURING that time (the picture u show) we didn't know of Saddam's atrocities etc... but yeah errors in judgment happen in the world of global politics... and who cares waht happened then?</p>
<p>fact is saddam is now in a jail cell...oil or no oil.</p>
<p>so....is there any good country in the world?</p>
<p>and is the USA simply an evil country with evil people in it and its existence has only meant evil forces spread through the world?</p>
<p>"and is the USA simply an evil country with evil people in it and its existence has only meant evil forces spread through the world?"</p>
<p>yes, pretty much. evil is dominating, and greed causes us to want to be an international police force. saddam didn't do anything to the US, and as long as he didn't, we have no right to go to war against him. I'm not saying that what he was doing to his nation was right, but it was the responsibility of the people of Iraq to change their government. If we wanted to give rebels financial aid, or continue with the sanctions we had, it would be fine. It's simply not effective to enter their country this way. We've made an enormous amount of enemies, and even people who weren't pro-saddam are battling against the US b/c we've infringed upon their freedoms. They see us as an occupying force, and who knows how long it will take us to leave. As for the first Gulf War, Bush I saw that there was no hope and pulled out. Bush II is more stubborn, but will continue to see the downfall of Iraq. He'll just keep prolonging it so he has popular support, but it will only hurt us. The dollar will keep falling, and we will see the US die as the most powerful nation in the world, unless a democrat comes in and manages to reverse the damage done. I plan on moving to Europe.</p>
<p>Good! Why don't you all go to move to Europe. You can drive their little fuel efficient cars, side with terrorists against Israel and America, and protest everything with no military strength to back it up. But thats ok! Because Europe has the......DA DA....the EU....yes, the EU...the next best thing since the invention of the wheel...the EU will plunge our dollar into extinction and then take over as the strongest coalition ever. I can see it now...</p>
<p>Jake, why are you so sarcastic and such a jackass to all of us? There was a reason your first screenname got banned. </p>
<p>You seem to have the opinion that the actions of the US and especially our President are completely justified and correct. It doesn't matter what you think about the EU, but the fact is it is growing extremely quickly and already has a stronger currency than the United States. </p>
<p>Get your head out of your ass and realize that liberals do not support terrorists or any act of terrorism. We do however like to look at the big picture and see what the best options are...more than I can say for you. I hope that in the future you can be more respectful of others and understand our point of view without immediately criticizing us.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
**"and is the USA simply an evil country with evil people in it and its existence has only meant evil forces spread through the world?"</p>
<p>yes, pretty much. evil is dominating, and greed causes us to want to be an international police force. saddam didn't do anything to the US, and as long as he didn't, we have no right to go to war against him. I'm not saying that what he was doing to his nation was right, but it was the responsibility of the people of Iraq to change their government. If we wanted to give rebels financial aid, or continue with the sanctions we had, it would be fine. It's simply not effective to enter their country this way. We've made an enormous amount of enemies, and even people who weren't pro-saddam are battling against the US b/c we've infringed upon their freedoms. They see us as an occupying force, and who knows how long it will take us to leave. As for the first Gulf War, Bush I saw that there was no hope and pulled out. Bush II is more stubborn, but will continue to see the downfall of Iraq. He'll just keep prolonging it so he has popular support, but it will only hurt us. The dollar will keep falling, and we will see the US die as the most powerful nation in the world, unless a democrat comes in and manages to reverse the damage done. I plan on moving to Europe.**
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Yes correct. I wrote an analysis earlier in this thread, and it's funny because everyone is ignoring it.</p>
<p>This is ********. North Korea are not supporting terrorists? Where you got the notion that DPRK = terrorists? They are actually anti-imperialist, and they have helped poor african nations with arms in order to fight off imperialists. Whether you like it or not DRPK and South Korean people want to unite, but it's the U.S puppets in South Korea that are preventing them from uniting. That is the main juice of this whole deal. I burst out in laughter when U.S pundits say Kim Jong-il is the president, he actually isn't the president he is the Commander of the armed forces, and has less constitutional power than the U.S president himself.Heck, U.S has nuclear arms in the open, and they were the first to use it. Invading N. Korea = endless Civil War.</p>
<p>The real reason for the Iraq war was the impending collapse of the dollar, and Saddam's decision to switch to the Euro.</p>
<p>The US, since bush came to power, has printed 1.5 trillion dollars American. To put that in perspective, America's entire economic worth, from the revolution onwards till 2000 was equal to that amount. It took what, 200-300 years? To produce real wealth equal to that. In 4 years, they have created fake wealth equivilant to that. That's massive devaluation. And it's beginning to hurt.</p>
<p>The world is already moving away from the dollar, expecting collapse, China, which is the US's biggest creditor who single handedly holds up the worth of the dollar at this point, has already begun to diversify its holdings of foreign capital. Patience is running out. This is why the European imperialist nations and the yankee imperialists, two camps that usually see eye to eye in such things, were so split on invading Iraq. Currently the Euro is worth more and switching a country with the 2nd largest oil fields in the world to the Euro is not good for the yankee imperial economy, not good at all.</p>
<p>Whether you like it or not, capitalism is a system founded on the objective necessity, not the subjective choice, of maintaining profitability. When economic realities begin to put pressure on profit rates, business loses both the ability and the desire to support any serious social reforms. The hard economic facts that you discard so easily, not "evil politicians," are what have transformed the Labor Party from one claiming it could bring about a "capitalism with a human face" to one implementing economic policies harsher than those of Margaret Thatcher twenty years earlier -- as well as the NDP's current admiration for that transformation. What the state of the world today proves is that socialism is not only the sole moral choice, but the only choice based on economic realities, not on fantastic make-believe about the capitalist economic system.</p>
<p>While not only is the idea of "capitalism with a human face" no longer viable today, there is no reason whatsoever why such a state of affairs should come about in the first place. The number of facts and statistics I could cite indicting the consequences of the capitalist system around the world are endless. As you're apparently one of the few open apologists for the profit system on these forums, I'd like to see your rationalization for the fact that more than thirty six million Americans -- more than 12% of the population -- were forced to live in poverty last year, or that twenty million American children faced food insecurity because they had the misfortune of living in families unable to afford basic daily nutritional requirements. If your only response is to blather about the virtues of "regulated capitalism," don't bother. That's no more serious a response than to say you're going to grow a money tree or persuade CEOs to give 99% of their income to charity. These social problems are the consequence not of greedy corporations or heartless politicians, but the objective economic processes of a society based on the pursuit of profit, a society you want to preserve by papering over its worst features with outdated policies of social reform.</p>
<p>The worst thing of all is the growth of religion.</p>
<p>Religion is unfortuantely more important now than it was 20-30 years ago. It has been a long long time since religion was so central to so many of the worlds conflicts, and the president of the USA is more guided by religion than others have been for awhile. Alot of people thought historically that with 1. the separation of church and state and 2. the emergence of science as an explanatory framework, would eventually lead to the decline of religion. But the revolution in Iran, the Balkans, conflict in the Middle East, 9/11 and now the cleavages in Iraq have put paid to that. And in the worlds most dominant country, there are unparalleled numbers of people who think God plays an important role in their life, in the worlds emerging dominant power China there are conflicts emerging as people demand religious rights even before they demand extensions to political rights, and the Republican Party that dominates political affairs in the US is heavily indebted to religious groups.</p>
<p>I don't necessarily think religion per se is the problem, I mean I don't personally believe in God or gods - I am pretty much in agreement with Karl Marx who suggested that religion is the opium of the masses, but who am I to dictate to others what to belive in. The problem is when religion becomes an instrument of power and an excuse to pursue particular agendas, whether it be flying planes into buildings or invading another country.</p>
<p>Oh, and when Churches take so much money off the congragation, often 10 per cent of their income, allowing the fat cat preachers to live large whilst the majority sit in poverty waiting for 'salvation'.</p>
<p>I think in future 9/11 will be seen by historians not as the 'rallying call against terror' that Bush would like it to be, but as the defining moment of the culmination of American political decline on the global stage. Culturally and politically, the US has never been so distrusted as they are now. Which leaves economics and military might... and their eventual passing as global economic leader leaves but one area of might - and we saw all the good that did for Britain, didn't we. It will be interesting to see how the US copes with this slide, since noone likes to give up their place when they are so dominat. But it is inevitable, and the Project for a New American Century guys may have to cut their timeframe in half.</p>
<p>I'm afraid I probably won't be posting on this thread, or probably any other political thread here, anymore. Really, I don't think anyone is going to change anyones mind by reading posts: only a one-on-one conversation could really get close to doing that, and I don't have the time to keep up with this thread and come up with the lengthy responses necessary. School is starting and I have better things to do. (And by the way, none of my opinions have changed at all: I'm still a pro-Bush, pro-Iraq war, solid right conservative :))</p>
<p>The thing I just wanted to say in closing was my sadness that some people here actually think that America is an evil force in the world. Even if you don't agree with the Iraq war, surely you see the huge amount of good our country does for the international community in so many other ways? Disagreement over policy is one thing, but being ashamed and slanderous of your country is another. Democrats can still be proud Americans!</p>
<p>Well, good luck pixiedanzer, bigjake, and all of the other conservative, like-minded posters here. I wish you the best!</p>
<p>Get your head out of your ass and realize that liberals do not support terrorists or any act of terrorism. We do however like to look at the big picture and see what the best options are...more than I can say for you. I hope that in the future you can be more respectful of others and understand our point of view without immediately criticizing us.</p>
<p>jaug, maybe <em>YOU</em> don't--- but alvie and astrophys (well i'm not sure about astro) but alvie definitely does support terrorists LoL..he said so himself "i wish more 9/11s woudl happen" </p>
<p>and angrod i'm with you, LoL but i'm sick of posting on CC in general...CC was upposed to help me with college questions ands tuff and i end up spending all my time on it and end up NOT doing things like studying for finals (my fault i know)...i realy need to stop going on cc cafe cuz all i do is debate politics with people i've never met and can't see..I should just stick to the forums of schools i'm aplpying to and only go on when i have a question haha---a constructive one. </p>
<p>there are lots of intelligent well informed people on this board...liberals and conservatives alike. i've only encountered two people who i have literally zero respect for. </p>
<p>it makes me very excited for colleg enext year to know i'll be in the presence of politically passionate people that i can enjoy debating with etc...</p>
<p>Long live George W. Bush (for the next 4 years)</p>
<p>I'm not a liberal</p>
<p>yeah you really aren't.</p>
<p>you're just...an America-hater</p>
<ol>
<li> the iraqis did nothing to us that could be considered terrorism. all of the problems iraq had were internal, until we randomly decided to enter.</li>
<li> "side with terrorists against Israel and America" I really love it how most conservatives are white supremacists. while many of the palestinians are going about creating change in the wrong way, they certainly deserve to be in Israel more than the Jewish people do, as they were there first (I'm not saying that it's right to kick someone out of a different belief, but if you were to have either an all-Jewish or an all Palestinian Israel, the Palestinians have more of a right to be there. The Jews just invaded after the Balfour declaration and took control). although the government of Israel may not be backing suicide bombers, they are certainly aggravating the situation by killing thousands of innocent palestinians. to have such government-sponsored violence is absolutely ridiculous and irresponsible. the government is supposed to back peace, and only use violence when an absolute necessity. if the government were to allow fair representation of the palestinians, and give them equal rights as citizens, then I would have no opposition to the Jewish staying in Israel.</li>
<li> american liberals don't generally hate america. they hate the direction america is going, but not the nation itself. our governmental system is one of the fairest in the world. sometimes the general populus is misguided with their votes, but that's how a democracy works.</li>
</ol>
<p>
[quote]
although the government of Israel may not be backing suicide bombers, they are certainly aggravating the situation by killing thousands of innocent palestinians. to have such government-sponsored violence is absolutely ridiculous and irresponsible. the government is supposed to back peace, and only use violence when an absolute necessity.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Possibly the most one-sided argument I have ever seen. You put nearly all of the blame to the Israeli government and call it "government-sponsored terrorism", yet somehow forget that it is the Palestinian government who actively supports suicide bombers to blow up innocent children and families for mere political "gain." YOu also happen to think that Israel is the one who is intentionally murdering thousands of innocent Palestinians. WHile all civilian deaths are tragic, many of them are the unfortunate result of retaliatory military strikes against terrorist groups and leaders hiding among innocents. On the other hand, I guess you've forgotten how the Palestinian suicide bombers are the ones who are INTENTIONALLY murdering thousands of innocent Israelis, and are being supported by various terrorist groups along the way.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"side with terrorists against Israel and America" I really love it how most conservatives are white supremacists.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yea ok. You realize that ignorant statements like that only serve to make YOU look like the misguided fool, not the other way around.</p>
<p>what the israeli government is doing is much like the apartheid rule in south africa. the non-natives are ruling, giving the opposition no say in governmental affairs.</p>
<p>when arafat was still alive, he condemned the suicide bombings. yes, there are extremist Palestinian groups that should be halted, but not everyone is a part of them. I don't think what the suicide bombers are doing is right either, but they aren't government-sponsored.</p>
<p>absolutely right astro</p>
<p>Arafat condemning suicide bombings? I remember nothing of the sort - Arafat addressed the UN General Assembly pledging the destruction of the Israeli state by whatever means neccessary to a standing ovation by most of the GA in the '60s and indirectly utilized the tactic through his leadership of the PA. Lets not forget Fatah, Force 17, etc., have all been directly linked pursestring wise and spiritually to Arafat and the PA, and have committed some of the greatest crimes against the state of Israel and its innocent population.</p>
<p>yahoo news headline right now "Top PLO Body Calls for End to Attacks "</p>
<p>"Abbas has spoken out against Palestinian violence"</p>
<p>suicide bombers have nothing to live for when their familys get killed and their homes get runned down by tanks even an american chic was killed.. <a href="http://www.jabpage.org/posts/corrie.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.jabpage.org/posts/corrie.html</a></p>
<p>basically by focusing constantly on the suicide bombers, we legitimize alll the violence the israelis commit..:</p>
<p>From a white suburban town, majority of ppl are Republican Bush supporters. In fact, my best friend is the BIGGEST conservative ever. My god, everytime we talk politics, she puts the blinders up. </p>
<p>Anyway, GO DEMS!</p>
<p>It's a diffiicult subject, and there are many valid points on both sides of the issues. </p>
<p>What I want to ask is: what are we planning to DO with our opinions? </p>
<p>Wrangling over the right/wrong aspects of the war on terror, or the Palestinian and Israeli conflict, or the current administration will do no good unless we do something about what we are passionate in. I think we can all agree that on all fronts, it's the innocents--the children and the families and the old folks, who get shoved and shot and robbed. </p>
<p>Innocence and helping the innocent have no politics. In the midst of the Israeli and Palestinian conflict, women on both sides banded together to make decorations for a holiday they both share. One side created candle-holders. Another side made candles. If they, the people at the heart of the conflict, instead of bystanders like us, who frankly have NO first-hand experience with their lives and what they endure, can put aside their differences and make the world a better place, we should follow their lead and do as much for them. </p>
<p>Come on. Just talking gets us nowhere. It's like adding fuel to a fire that does really need to be burning at all.</p>