<p>Like i said, let's side with the terrorists. They send suicide bombers to kill innocent people and then when Israel retaliates, oh its their fault. That's the exact view that all of anti-Semitic Europe has and thats the view that the US took under Clinton and the liberals. Thank god we have Bush now who recognizes that Israel has a right to self-defense. Theres no dealing with terrorists. The UN offered the Palestinians their own state for god's sakes back in 1948. NOO...they didnt take that...they wanted Jerusalem. Well, Jerusalem belongs to Israel. And if the Palestinians are going to continue their terrorist acts, then Israel has every right to defend itself. Its about time they put up a wall there. Its about time they stepped up military operations in Gaza. I'm sort of ****ed off that its actually planning to withdraw its troops. Those Palestinians should be living under military rule 24/7. If they wanted peace, they would have agreed to their own state, which Israel has offered them on more than one occasion. Astro you got the wrong impression here. This is no apartheid. Israel wants nothing to do with the Palestinians. Its not its job to take care of them and include them in their government. They should take their own goddamn state in Gaza and start building their own country rather than trying to destroy another one. They lived there for hundreds of years and could not even get a decent country going. Israel built it up in 50. And you're saying that these terrorists have a greater claim to this land?</p>
<p>thank you BigIgnorantJake for that gross oversimplification.</p>
<p>Thats because its clear as day...not everything has to be overanalyzed "o 1956 this, 58% that." You liberals love doing that because it makes up for the fact that you have no stance on any issue. You just attack whatever is going on at any given time. When terrorists attack, you have a right to defend yourself. We don't even have a right to judge. We sit in the comfort of our homes here in America while someone in Israel could die anywhere at any time.</p>
<p>translation: Don't confuse me with the facts.</p>
<p>bigjake..clear example of one who by only focusing on palestinian violence totally legitimizes israeli violence yet I already posted that link about the israeli tank running down that american woman..they were trying to run down a palestinian doctors house so hmm why doesnt anyone notice when israeli military kills innocent palestinians?..wat about the European people who went to document something and the camera man was killed before he can even explain to the israeli military why they were...its actually on the documentary where the military starts approaching them and they are trying to explain why they are there and before u know it u hear someone get shot the camera drops and the woman yelling the camera mans name and they say at the end..he lost his life...ohhh please lets make up something on israeli military's behalf..like the military was confused..they thought the camera was a gun..yeah screw u all..</p>
<p>p.s. i never believed that israeli jewish ppl are cheap thing to be true but now i do omg i stayed at this familys house this week and it wa slike -10 degrees outside and they had no carpet and they had noo heat..i constantly checked to see if they would put it on..they didnt..they didnt even offer food..and it was like 8 of us chics..this is for debate btw..they're our host family.they dont know how to host..:</p>
<p>jake: </p>
<p>Are you israeli/paslestinian? You seem very sure of the right and wrongs of this issue. Do you live on the Gaza Strip? I hear the weather there is quite beautiful this time of year.</p>
<p>yeah Jake has articulated his views extremely well throughout this whole forum discussion. i think the most important point he's made is that Bush has done the right thing by having a zero tolerance for suicide bombers policy, zero tolerance for lying/terrorist supporting leaders like Arafat (who's dead now.) </p>
<p>Israel has, by no means, been a perfect country either obviously In fact, i bet tons of people would have sided with the Palestinians had the suicide bombers not come into the picture. Even still though, Israel has made tons of progress and has showed that it is up for peace and compromise as long as the suicide bombings stop. The difference is, they're willing to admit their wrongdoings.</p>
<p>In the meantime, while the bombings continue, the country has EVERY right to defend itself.</p>
<p>And why can the terrorists even mount an argument in the Muslim world that it isn't?</p>
<p>Because there is one cause terrorism rides upon, a cause they have no belief in but can manipulate. I want to be very plain: This terrorism will not be defeated without peace in the Middle East between Israel and Palestine.</p>
<p>Here it is that the poison is incubated. Here it is that the extremist is able to confuse in the mind of a frighteningly large number of people the case for a Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel, and to translate this moreover into a battle between East and West, Muslim, Jew and Christian.</p>
<p>May this never compromise the security of the state of Israel.</p>
<p>The state of Israel should be recognized by the entire Arab world, and the vile propaganda used to indoctrinate children, not just against Israel but against Jews, must cease.</p>
<p>You cannot teach people hate and then ask them to practice peace. But neither can you teach people peace except by according them dignity and granting them hope.</p>
<p>Innocent Israelis suffer. So do innocent Palestinians.</p>
<p>The ending of Saddam's regime in Iraq must be the starting point of a new dispensation for the Middle East: Iraq, free and stable; Iran and Syria, who give succor to the rejectionist men of violence, made to realize that the world will no longer countenance it, that the hand of friendship can only be offered them if they resile completely from this malice, but that if they do, that hand will be there for them and their people; the whole of region helped toward democracy. And to symbolize it all, the creation of an independent, viable and democratic Palestinian state side by side with the state of Israel.</p>
<p>What the president is doing in the Middle East is tough but right. ~ Tony Blair</p>
<p>there will never be peace..because the super powers always take sides...forever..they did when they fuled the war in the first place by handing israeli crazy weapons allowing them to kill arabs and force them out of their home..no peace because of imperialistic beeches always taking sides..they may seem indifferent but they never are..</p>
<p>this makes me crazy..we allow suicide bombers to represent palestine *** is that..why do we forget about the innocen tppl of palestine?..suicide bombers make up what like a percent..why do we forget about th einnocent palestinian ppl who are getting screwed..why do we forget about the innocent palestinians getting killed...pixie..what u did is by talking about only the palestinian bombers..u once again legitimize what the israeli military does against the palestinian innocent ppl..again and again i talk about the innocent american chic got killed by israeli tanks trying to run down palestinian doctor's house...i dont see how what the palestinian doctor did to them..no its israeli selfish way of getting what they want..they want more land soo they just run down people's houses..why do we IGNORE THAT..huh no one said anything about that yet...yes suicide bombers are bad butwhat makes the american government so differnt..i know soo many ppl who are being forced to go to iraq..i know maddd ppl in my school who died in iraq..what makes the maeican government so different?..i know someone who wasnt even able to finish his semester at binghamton ..the ywouldnt allow it..just shipped him off.."go fight for your country..we will give u 15,000 dollars or w/e and pay for ur education...but hey u might not come back alive"..we forget to add that little part that most likely your gonna die fighting for your country..but oh well ur just one life..right..just one life..the government doesnt give a shyt about their soldiers..soo hmm what makes the us government so different from osama bin laden?..atleast he takes care of the suicide bombers famiyl forever..heh..better than the government can..oh well..w/e..</p>
<p>AND DONT TELL ME WHY DID THEY AGREE TO GO..FIRST TO GET FINANCIAL AID U HAVE TO SIGN UP FOR SELECTIVE SERVICE..OR U GET NOTHING..THESE PEOPLE OBVIOSLY ARENT RICH..THEY NEED FINANCIAL AID..SO U BASICALLY GET SCREWED..</p>
<p>FINALLY your true colors show! </p>
<p>you think America is comparable to Bin Laden.... and that is why liberals have such a bad rap. </p>
<p>i think it's laughable that you feel liek a spokesperson for the US armed forces. My dad is an Air Force veteran and has friends serving in Iraq, and my best friend's brother is over there right now. HE VOLUNTEERED* to be in the military, nobody forced him, and he is there fighting for something he truly believes in. Is he ENJOYING his time there? i HIGHLY doubt it, i bet he's miserable as hell. he knows the risks and if you care so mucha bout the military why do you liberals want defense budgets to be cut all the time?</p>
<p>The Palestinian's claim to what is now known as Israel is invalid (forgive me if this has already been said, but I didn't feel like reading through the whole thread). The ancient people that inhabited the land, the PHILLISTINES, from whom the palestinans claim to trace their ancestry, were actually from Crete. Palestinians are actually reject Jordanians. THAT SAID, Israel has a responsiblity, because the Palestinains do not have their own state, to guarentee them fair treatment. I am Jewish, and I will fully admit that some of Israel's policies against Palestinians (like not allowing them to live in certain areas) are resemblant of Apartheid. Likewise, Palestine needs a leader with credibility among the Palestinian people, unlike arafat who was completely useless and totally dangerous. Abbas seems to be okay, but arafat wanted to create problems. Barak gave him 90% of what he wanted, yet he turned it down. FURTHERMORE, the Israeli people need to cooperate, which they seem unwilling to do-i.e. Barak being ousted after offering land to arafat. Israel still must exist as a Jewish state, but at the same time Palestinians should feel free to live there. Also, the madrassa like schools-which teach hatred towards jews, need to be stopped. I cannot forsee any solution in the near future, and this has led me to believe that organized religion is stupid.</p>
<p>pixie dear..thats the difference..ur brother who ever u are talking about volunteered..whereas im talking about people who have no choice..because they are poor..obviously u are living in an other world and u dont even care to see the other side..please dont tell me liberals have a bad rep..whereas hello american helped osama in the first place..get it straight..america helped fuel terrorists act( zbigniew brezezinskii, national security adviser at that time said helping osama would be a good idea at that time) back then doesnt matter if it wasnt against america..it was terrorist acts and rebellion...</p>
<p>btw im talking about the army..where most ppl that dont want to go..have to go..so ur using an example of people u know WHO VOLUNTEERED to go whereas im talking about people who get tricked into going and it happens a lot in nyc..soo screw this crap..dont tell me im wrong when it happens constantly to the people i now..</p>
<p>btw my friends father was a veteran of vietnam and hes not at all jolly about it..</p>
<p>and again u ignored everything i said about the israeli tanks and etc..and the misrepresentation of the innocent ppl of palestine..i love how u did thatbefore too in the beginning when we were chatting..strategically forgetting what u want..focusing on other crap..which wasnt my main point..love it..twisting stuff..at least i answer to everything..anyway g2g eat..bbl</p>
<p>desi you're the one that's been ignoring my posts.</p>
<p>i've said repeatedly that israel historically has not had perfect policies by any means. in fact, if there wre no suicide bombings, i'd probably side with the Palestinian cause in temrs of having their own state. </p>
<p>that doesn't mean Israel has no right to exist---goodness it's th eonly thing Jews have to hold onto besides their traditions. if there was no Israel, imagine the implications for their religion!</p>
<p>the poor soldiers DO have a choice...they're not drafted. </p>
<p>yeah i'm sure there ar eplenty of vietnam vets who aren't proud of the war, doesn't mean they shouldn't be proud of serving their country--they deserve our respect no matter what.</p>
<p>and desi i don't appreciate you're condescending tone.. "pixie, dear"... luckily this debate isn't in person... but there are lpenty of people in this trhead who have disagreed and hated eveyrthing i've said but still expressed themselves in a non-condescending, mature fashion.</p>
<p>hopefully you're capable of that too...but if that's you're normal style then just keep on with it i don't care . just calilng you on it</p>
<p>im sorry u think i was being condescending..but i say dear to everyone...if anything i felt like our discussion was healthy..and I was not trying to be rude..sorry u feel that i am attacking u or trying to make u feel little...thats not the case..i wont say dear..dear..but im just use to saying dear..but ill stop..when it comes to u..</p>
<p>btw nobody ever took my "dear" the wrong way..i actually felt it took away from the anger..when i say dear..anyway sorry..</p>
<p>"i've said repeatedly that israel historically has not had perfect policies by any means. in fact, if there wre no suicide bombings, i'd probably side with the Palestinian cause in temrs of having their own state."..thats the thing..u give too much importance to the bombers and u allow them to become the representative of the innocent palestinians..when in reality they make up a small portion.. </p>
<p>"that doesn't mean Israel has no right to exist---goodness it's th eonly thing Jews have to hold onto besides their traditions. if there was no Israel, imagine the implications for their religion!"..their religion?..first there are jews all around the world...and what about other religions?..also i do believe jews deserve a country but u dont rip it away from other ppl..also israel is made up of jews from many different countries..i mean who is an israeli?..my fathers friend is really a romanian jew whose family lives in israel..if we want to stop suicide bombers..we have to realize why they are doing it..</p>
<p>"the poor soldiers DO have a choice...they're not drafted. "--no they dont..thats the whole point..ill talk about one situation..this boy who goes to binghamton..he cant pay for college on his on..so on the fafsa form it says if u havent signed up for selective service yet and ur a male then circle yes..somethign like that..and i asked the omwan who does all the fafsa crap..what happeens if a dude says no..she said ..they practically get nothing for financial aid..so basically..its really not a choice..ur practically trapped..so in his case..he wasnt even able to finish his semester..they shipped him off..and theres these dudes in my school all day who try to recruit ppl for the army..and they manipulate these vulnerable kids who dont know any better..ohh yeah ull get money..and all this..we will pay for ur education..etc..ugh..but dont get me wrong..i know ppl who want to be in the air force etc..but yes i also people who get fooled into the army..or have no choice</p>
<p>"yeah i'm sure there ar eplenty of vietnam vets who aren't proud of the war, doesn't mean they shouldn't be proud of serving their country--they deserve our respect no matter what."--of course they deserve our respect..doesnt everyone?..respect should just a universal thing..why do we have to belittle others?</p>
<p>Israel has absolutely no interest in the Gaza strip...its a desert! So anybody who says that Israel is trying to just take more land is stupid. You're one link about one person being run over is supposed to prove something? Suicide bombers might not necessarily represent the Palestinians, but almost all Palestinians hate Israel so much that they applaud the terrorist attacks. That's not the point. When suicide bombers are known to come through a particular point or when a particular camp is known to harbor terrorists, there is no way around it but to invade in order to protect yourself. Are there truly innocent people in such places? Maybe. Will they be affected? Maybe. That's what happens in a conflict. But to protect its people, the Israeli government takes perfectly legitimate steps. Everyone comes down so hard upon Israel because it is a REAL country with a REAL army. Its supposed to just stand by while suicide bombers repeatedly kill civilians. Terrorist actions on the other hand are ignored because "what can you do?" That view ****es me off. There is a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. No way around it. Why don't you be fair to both sides? If Palestinians attack Israel, then Israel can retaliate. You can't blame them for having military superiority. They would not attack if they did not have to. Israeli life revolves around security. Its a country that always feels pressed. Military service is mandatory. They would love it if people would just left them alone. Its good that Israel finally has a real ally in Bush. And i still don't see how the Israeli government is responsible for the Palestinians. Do they pay taxes? Do they serve in the army? They're a group that wants nothing to do with Israel and i really don't see how someone can be so arrogant as to say that the Israeli government is OBLIGED to give these people that outright hate them representation.</p>
<p>Let there be paragraphs please. </p>
<p>I'm sure many good points are found in the posts of those who post here, regardless of opinion. However, it's really difficult to read when your eyes start swimming and jumping on the third line. </p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>and people can you please use the Quote boxes instead of "doing this" when replying? Im sure it will help readability a lot</p>