<p>My FIL was a college math professor for his entire career. He was not an advocate of pushing advanced math in high school. For many kids there’s a level of academic maturity they need to have to do well in higher level math. He really didn’t encourage his grandchildren to stress over their math selections.</p>
<p>Our district in moving from CA State Standards to Common Core is moving from a math sequence where Alg I was taken by about 30 7th graders, about 1/2 the 8th graders, and the rest in 9th grade to a math sequence where everyone takes pretty much the same subjects by grade, though there are honors and extra support versions. 7th and 8th grade math do not involve much algebra (there’s a bit in 8th grade). The 9th-11th grade sequence is Integrated Math 1, 2, and 3, which covers Alg I, Geometry, Alg II and a bit of Statistics (not AP). The honors versions of these classes also include the material in PreCalc, so that students who take the honors 9th-11th classes can still take Calculus in 12th. </p>
<p>I’ve heard that other districts in CA are moving to math sequences like this. This may or may not be a factor in your friend’s child’s math placement.</p>
<p>I think the result will be fewer kids who get to Calculus by 12th grade, and colleges will have to deal with that. Already, the science and engineering classes at our high school are having to deal with the idea that there won’t be any freshmen who have had algebra and kids with enough math for physics will be juniors instead of sophomores.</p>
<p>For the love of “The Elusive, Average, Happy Kid”, and all things holy, tell your friend to lighten up. This kid is all of 12 or 13. She is not doomed or even behind. She just isn’t in an advanced class. </p>
<p>She is much better off with a strong foundation in algebra, geometry, algebra 2, and then pre-calc or stats or some other math in high school rather than being pushed into an accelerated track that is over her head. She’ll get to calc when she is developmentally ready for it (or she won’t) and life will go on, and she will go to a fine, appropriate college, where she will major in who-knows-what. Or she’ll go to a tech school. Or maybe she’ll form a band and go straight to Los Angeles after high school. </p>
<p>Sorry, I think I slightly misunderstood in my previous post. So, it sounds like the student will be taking 7th and 8th grade math in those grades, and then algebra in 9th grade. This is even better. If you look at a 7th and 8th grade textbook you will see there is a lot of overlap in material. If this student finds 7th grade math to be easy and is near the top of her class, then try to get the school to place her in algebra in 8th grade. She may have to do a little work over the summer but I don’t think it would be a big problem. You could ask the school what topics she might have missed to focus on. In fact, one of my kids went straight into algebra1 after using one of the standard 7th grade math texts the previous year without any issues or any summer work (though she is quite good at math). </p>
<p>And if she doesn’t excel in 7th grade math, then it would seem her placement is appropriate and she should just stay on the track. </p>
<p>Bless you, eastcoastcrazy. </p>
<p>If this is a big deal it was normal for kids at my school to take Geometry and Algebra at the same time, take Algebra and Pre-Calc at the same time, or self-learn Algebra over the summer after Geometry and skip it all together (this may not be possible anymore if Algebra is a requirement, it wasn’t required when I was in high school but I think it is now in all Michigan high schools, not sure about other states) when they wanted to get ahead in math. </p>
<p>A kid who enrolled in algebra 1 as a freshman and finished up with precalculus took the most rigorous curriculum that was available to her. An admissions officer will immediately see that. Happens all the time. NO PROBLEM.</p>
<p>She can probably take pre-calc at a community college the summer after junior year and then go into calculus senior. Mom will have to communicate with school about this but seriously, not the end of the world if she only gets to pre-calc. Most colleges require algebra II and “like” to see 3 to 4 years of math on a transcript. Wouldn’t hurt to have a decent SAT score in math (and while it’s changing the one now really doesn’t really test much past Algebra II.) We know tons of kids who didn’t go into Calculus and doing well in all sorts of colleges.</p>
<p>If the girl’s heart is set on MIT or something then sure, she may want to figure something out in high school to get to Calculus. At this point though, staying on her path and getting a good foundation is most important. Mom doesn’t need to stress. </p>
<p>Good lord. My son was several years ahead in math starting in middle school, and is now in college using very little of his advanced skills because his academic interests have taken him in other directions. My daughter is “only” in the general-population grade-level math in high school and yet got her best ACT score on the math section (and it was very good) without any prep. She will likely go into a field involving math (i.e., business) and I fully expect her to have to take a lot of math in college. I don’t see a problem.</p>
<p>When a junior she could take dual enrollment/ running start at a community college and breeze through all the math classes (it goes 1 class/trimester) </p>
<p>So how many non-engineers have needed calculus in their lives and careers? </p>
<p>As for the point of the thread…silliness. As long as you take the minimum number of math courses required for admission by the school (usually 3 nowadays) you can get IN to almost any college. </p>
<p>geometry is an odd math class, that does not have much to do with algebra. Many kids take it in the summer in order to advance a level in math. Perhaps she can do that after 9th grade if subject acceleration is still desired. If she loves math, there are many resources that are low cost and can enrich a 7-8th grader; MathCounts, Art of Problem Solving, and math clubs and summer programs. </p>
<p>In a new more challenging school environment, in 7th grade, I think allowing some time and effort for social adjustment and to get a sense of mastery of the entire new curriculum mean more than advanced math. </p>
<p>Thank you for all your responses! I’ll try to address some questions:</p>
<p>" How can you say what level of college they will be targeting when the kid is in 7th grade?"
- she doesn’t know, but feels that the 7th grade math placement (intro to pre-algebra vs. pre-algebra) would prevent her daughter from a math-related career path, even something like accounting</p>
<p>“In our HS, the math and science offerings are tracked together”
- yes, that is a concern, that “everything” will “fall behind” - complicated by the fact that the final schedules are not out until August so she doesn’t know if they are tracking everything low. She at least confirmed that the schedules aren’t out for any of the middle school students - shocking to me because my district a few towns away finalizes schedules in May.</p>
<p>" On what does the new school base the placement? "
- her D took a math placement test and missed the pre-algebra criteria by 4 points (but not an absolute scale, so not sure if it is “close” or “far” from the cutoff), but also did poorly on the Terra Novas, plus doubtful got good recommendations from the private school though did well (As and Bs) in math.</p>
<p>" No one has asked how well the girl the girl does in math class or how much she likes math."
- she does well in math and likes it - it seems to be a strong suit but based on the summer pre-algebra worksheet, it’s clear the private school was not on pace with the public school</p>
<p>" Jeez, give the woman a break. Is it not reasonable to think that that is precisely why she is transferring her kid out?"
- yes, that is why she is transferring now, not only was it clear for her D that she was falling behind on the standardized tests, but she is worried about her younger kids. They were in the private school in the first place due to religious affiliation. Also there will be only one class of 15 each year now because of declining enrollment - very real concern that the private school will close down.</p>
<p>It’s clear that the private school just put all the kids together regardless of ability. The private school started switching classes in 4th grade, but it was the same kids walking around to different classrooms, absolutely no differentiation except a very small handful of kids in “gifted” programs.</p>
<p>Her D is 12, and is anxious about changing schools, and IMHO doesn’t know much about what class she’ll end up in. The placement test was the first computer test she’s taken. She is strong in math but also very interested in art. (I think maybe spending time and money on art lessons and similar would be better than pursuing math unless she shows a keen interest).</p>
<p>Note that I am dealing with this on a small scale with my middle son - very bright in math, tests very high, but could not get a high enough algebra grade in 8th grade to get into 9th grade honors geometry. But he is at least in the upper track (does not have to repeat algebra), so if he does do well in regular geometry in 9th, he can move on to the highest level in 10th (honors trig I believe). If he didn’t do well enough on the 6th grade placement test, I can imagine he would be taking algebra in 9th grade. My oldest was borderline for years, yet kept getting teacher recommendations, and is going into AP Calc BC in 12th grade - he is convinced that he needs it for an engineering major. He did have to self-study for the AP Calc AB test last year because he couldn’t get into the class, but did well enough on the AP to get into BC.</p>
<p>(all of that doesn’t convince her because they are on the higher track now - a track that is lower than the highest track in her district which is two years ahead)</p>
<p>I’m a CPA. Accounting requires virtually no math in most cases; you might need calc to get the degree, but you certainly don’t need it to do the work. For the CPA exam, you use a table and a calculator for the time value of money problems; no need to derive or even understand the formula. If you do a lot of calculation-heavy work, you use software, and while it’s good to be able to check the software, the four basic functions work 90% of the time and algebra the other 10%. </p>
<p>My DD missed a higher math placement by 2 points (one question) when she changed schools last year. I had my doubts, because she does better when challenged than when bored, but she had a good year. The new school had a much higher expectation of executive function, which is a weak point for her, and that made up for the lack of academic challenge.</p>
<p>She should stop panicking. Unless Caltech, Harvey Mudd, or engineering at WUStL is in the plan, it is not required to take calculus while in high school to prepare for college (although, at the minimum, being ready for calculus by completing algebra, geometry, and trigonometry/precalculus in high school is a good idea).</p>
<p>
Most students in HS do not take calculus, yet most high school graduates later attend college. Taking calculus is by no means required to attend college. And there is likely a valid reason for not being placed in an advanced track. Being placed in advanced track if not ready for an advanced pace usually does more harm than good.</p>
<p>That said, if you think outside of the box, there are probably options that lead to taking calculus. For example, I attended a basic public HS where most students fail the state regents exam in math. When I was in 7th grade, I was placed in a group of ~20 kids who had different teachers from the main class. A good portion of the kids had special needs. This caused me to miss out on some advanced track options. My 7th grade math teacher initially said he wasn’t going to recommend me for accelerated math because I often didn’t bother to show my work. Later in the year, he changed his mind due to some comments I made in class that suggested intuition about higher level math topics, including one unexpected solution to a lecture question that he needed to use calculus to confirm. I had similar problems in HS, but one of my HS math teachers recognized this as boredom with the class pace and allowed me to independently read textbooks instead of attending classes, which led to further acceleration. By the time I graduated HS, I was taking math beyond calculus at an external university.</p>
<p>The real question is what is the right math class for the girl, regardless whether she will major in literature, accounting, or engineering in college. If the class is too easy then she will be bored. And there is no reason to assume that the girl will not be interested in going to Caltech, Harvey Mudd, Wharton,… Is this because the student is a girl?</p>
<p>If the parents think she can take pre-algebra then they can ask the school to put her in pre-algebra. If she does not do well then she can go down to intro to pre-algebra after 3-4 weeks of trial. Nothing will be lost. Math placement testing in middle school is not always accurate, especially when the test is done for a transferred student.</p>
<p>“It’s clear that the private school just put all the kids together regardless of ability. The private school started switching classes in 4th grade, but it was the same kids walking around to different classrooms, absolutely no differentiation except a very small handful of kids in “gifted” programs.”</p>
<p>This also how it works in the public schools I am familiar with. Private schools can often teach at a higher level simply because they tend to have a better group of students overall and fewer stragglers. Public schools generally aren’t able to offer classes at different levels in elementary school. It would not fly with the parents.</p>
<p>The school gave this student their placement test and placed her according to the results. See how she does this year. If it’s the case that her current level of achievement is below her capability because of a weak math program, if she works hard at it this year, she should be able to make significant gains and do really well. If she shows herself capable, hopefully the school will be willing to push her forward. And if she doesn’t, you really need to accept that’s a good track for her and it really hasn’t closed any doors–even if she decides she wants to go to one of those elite engineering programs, she could take summer school in high school or something.</p>
<p>Our middle school is very aggressive about math placement. Roughly half our 7th graders are taking algebra1 in 7th grade, based on middle school tracking that was done by 5th grade teachers. It’s great for the kids who are ready. But some of them really aren’t ready and they do struggle later on. The parents of the younger students really aren’t aware of this, and of course most of them want Johnny to start algebra in 7th grade with the highest track. Some parents will try to push kids who didn’t make the placement cut-off in anyhow, not realizing that even those who did scrape by are headed for trouble later on. While middle school math is pretty repetitive and there is a lot of opportunity to “get” something next year if you didn’t “get” it this year, once kids start the high school math sequence with algebra, many things build on what came before and a weak foundation is a bad situation.</p>
<p>Life is not over . . . . if the placement is based on kid’s current abilities, then it is the right one for the kid. My older one, we pushed into higher math track because of same fear, what if he doesn’t have calc in high school. Result – never had a strong foundation, struggled in class and on standardized testing and ultimately hurt his transcript and strength of application. Having learned from the poor guinea pig oldest, we had second one on a regular track – re-took Algebra 1 in high school to make sure strong foundation, Geometry in 10th and Alg 2 in 11th. Will do Honors Precalc/trig as a senior. He gets As in math and understands it. Anecdotally, we know a number of kids who did not have calc in high school who got into top 5 schools — the point is, to be a compelling candidate for who you are, not some version of what a perfect candidate might be.</p>
<p>Well we aren’t talking algebra in 7th grade we are talking pre-pre algebra. Personally I’ve had the pre-algebra and pre-pre-algebra textbooks side by side in our district and the single difference I could find was something call a hair and whisker plot. (Which I’d never heard of, but turns out to be a fancy way to show data spread.) In her shoes I might do a review of the district’s 6th grade math and ask if she can be placed in the more advanced level on a trial basis. But if it doesn’t work out, (middle schools seem to be much less flexible in this regard than high schools at least in our district), rest assured there are almost certainly other ways for a good math student to catch up.</p>