I disagree with the crowd. If you are having a formal dinner that starts at a certain time, she should be there at the time stated.
If it is a more casual day, then sure, her stopping by at any time would be okay, but you say you aren’t okay with her treating you as a diner, just to stop by and say hello.
But I’m mean and would not accept the crumbs.
…when I think back to those days, I was so wrapped up in my own social life. I rarely considered how my parents felt about my absence at family gatherings. Then I moved away and was hardly around. Now I know how they felt.
This spoke to me - I was a massively selfish 20-something and never considered the effect on my family of my absences (if they saw me once every two or three years, it was a lot). When my kids were born, I’d drag everyone to the grandparents once a year on a school break, but still treated it more like a chore.
Now, like you, I also realize how my mother felt. (My dad, meh, but that’s another story.) She often said that the years spent raising us were the happiest of her life.
It’s so tough - we want them to be successful adults, but it’d also be great if they could still be our little kids.
This was what my therapist was referring to. It doesn’t make you mean. But it does increase the likelihood that you don’t see your kids-- at all, or only grudgingly and at a great-aunt’s funeral-- if you make it all or nothing. Just like any other relationship- you need to figure out how to be flexible.
The D lives with her parents. So I would not be surprised that if in her head “heck, I see them all the time”. Nor would I be surprised if she felt that the BF’s family was laidback, easy-going and fun to be around, and her own family were curmudgeons always finding fault (you come in too late. You leave too early. You aren’t at the table on time after my hard work putting a formal dinner together.)
So parents need to decide the endgame. To be right? Sure, go for it. Or to have a loving relationship with your adult children- even if you don’t see them as often as you think you should. Even if they are now violating house rules (dinner starts on time. I’m not a short-order cook). Even if they spend what felt like a fun evening out with you, and then say that their BF did not enjoy the evening. Play the long game.
Not necessarily. I think we let people know how to treat us, and that we expect a minimum degree of respect, and to be treated as well as one treats their friends. Selfishness is unbecoming in any adult, and no one should be taken for granted. Frankly the daughter and her BF sound quite immature and ungrateful already.
So much said here resonates with me. I have one of four of my children not coming home for Thanksgiving. She’s oblivious to how her choices impact the rest of us.
I don’t know if other parents are having the same experience with Gen Z as I am. My daughter uses therapy speak to excuse what I perceive as selfishness. I think it’s wild. As a generation they seem self centered in a way I never had the luxury of being.
I’m not sure how old you are. I know as a mid-GenX-er, that I was raised in a society, where expectations needed to be met, as best you could. So, yeah, try to be either home or at SO’s home for a holiday, because you have vacation time to spend from work, etc.
GenZ has a much more fractured society to exist in. A lot of jobs these days don’t really give vacation time, so much as “If you need that week off, I won’t put you on the schedule, but you’re not getting paid, and the next few weeks I won’t rely on you as much for hours.” These kids have to self-advocate, otherwise employers will exploit them as much as the laws allow. So, yeah, they are more self-centered than we were at that age, when society still met certain benchmarks.
We don’t have either adult child coming home (one with a spouse) and really don’t expect it. They are both over 30 and have good lives nowhere near the town where we are and that they grew up in. Husband and I will make the best of it and make some turkey and the usual side dishes anyway and watch the parade and plenty of football!
They are all coming from out of town for Christmas though and we are very grateful for that!
I’m 52. My kids are 16-26. I feel like it’s more because we coddled them. My older two seem to feel like they can do whatever they want because they have us to fall back on. They both treat their careers more flippantly than I could have at their ages. I had no security net in my early 20s, plus I had boatloads of college debt. I’m glad my kids feel like they can count on us, but I see a selfishness and entitlement in my 20 something’s I’m not real fond of.
A good reason to sometimes separate the celebration from the holiday and pick another day.
This was more what I meant. The OP has to set the tone of what she wants. If she wants a formal dinner, at 2 pm, then that is what her daughter is invited to. If it is okay for daughter to show up at 4 for pie, then that’s what she should convey to daughter. It is not the crumbs but setting expectations. If daughter has a reason to not attend at 2, that’s fine too (sorry, we have tickets to a show at 1, so can’t be there until 4?). It sounds like D doesn’t want to be tied to the invitation, and that’s just rude.
I don’t speak from an inexperience. Neither of my kids will be coming for thanksgiving. One lives close but is traveling on thanksgiving to her BF’s parents (I will get her dogs). The other is still in college and is defending her thesis next week. Would I like them to come? Sure, but they’ve said no so that’s what I’ll plan for.
I think OP should have the dinner/guests she wants and if she is okay with the daughter showing or not showing, that’s fine but don’t let daughter set the rules. I think it would be disruptive to have daughter show up 30 minutes into dinner and have all the attention shift to her
(honestly at my house no meals are formal so anyone is invited to just show up but it sounds like OP is having a formal meal)
Can you give some examples of, “therapy speak”?
I’d love to know more about what you mean
I don’t disagree with you. As someone who had a ton of responsibility-- eventually- for all four aging parents, and prior to that, pretty much spent any vacation time visiting, doctors, even minor family events (did I care that cousin Betty was getting a citizenship award? No I did not) — this next generation surely isn’t repeating what they saw at home. So I’m certainly onboard philosophically. Any time off for work was claimed by various family obligations.
Where I disagree is that I have SO many friends, extended family members, colleagues, who have opted for the nuclear option (some version of “We expect a minimum degree of respect” or “Come for dinner at 6 or don’t come at all, it’s too disruptive to set another place at 7 when it’s convenient for you”) and guess what- flash forward ten years- and the table is perpetually empty. That’s what I meant by the “all or nothing” strategy- and you usually end up with nothing. Our kids all eventually find significant others, have their own kids, and if you’ve set the stage for 'My way or the highway", they take the highway.
Is it right, is it fair, are the kids to blame, were we too permissive? I’m neither a psychologist nor a sociologist.
When I was taking care of my dad (I’d drive over every week or two and spend a few days) he always lamented that I was leaving. I finally told him how guilty that made me feel that I had to go and it was really hard. He said it was because he loved me, wanted me to know that but
knew I must to attend to my own life and that he’d be okay. He’d miss me but be fine–quit worrying! So from then on I’d just leave with “Don’t worry! I’ll be back soon!” Made a difference for sure.
I don’t want to hijack the OPs thread, but my daughter’s excuse for not coming home for thanksgiving is that she really needs “to prioritize her self care right now” and traveling two hours home for a meal is stressing her out. She says she’ll be home for Christmas and so that should be enough. More examples of therapy speak I’ve been hit with recently are that she’s trying “to establish her autonomy and really needs me to respect her boundaries.” We’ve always been really close and so this is somewhat alarming. She’s had a rough year, so I’m trying to cut her some slack and not articulate how she’s hurting my feelings. Again, I’m in the I’ll take the crumbs camp.
That seals it…we need a new thread. I don’t want to hear about “respecting boundaries” until someone can at least show a bit of gratitude or appreciation for all that’s been given to them freely.
This would make me want to ask "what does that look like for you? And “can you tell me more about what you need from me?”
It’s hard to bite your tongue in these conversations, but hearing how you overstep boundaries or can enable self-care can be helpful. I agree with you that this kind of psycho-speak on its own doesn’t advance a relationship.
I empathize with you as we are experiencing the same thing with our Gen Z kid. She has already told us that she and BF are “prioritizing spending the holidays together.” So, either we agree to include BF in all of our celebrations or we don’t get to see our daughter. She is planning to spend Christmas Day with his family as we have not “seemed welcoming enough.” Of course, she forgets and forgives how cold the BF has been towards us. She has graciously (sarcasm) offered to celebrate with us another day. It just doesn’t feel good to be the second choice and we are still deciding whether to accept crumbs.
OP, I have no better advice for you than what has already been given as we are still figuring things out too. Love and light to everyone dealing with a tough situation this holiday season.
This thread makes me incredibly sad. Sending hugs to all who are navigating not seeing your children or not having the holiday you hoped for.
Tell her that sounds great and ask her what the plans are. You have planned Christmas at your house on the 25th, so if she wants a second celebration she should plan it.
I have two friends who married brothers (6 siblings in total). Their MIL decided early on she wasn’t going to fight over Christmas so declared the Sunday after New Years HERS. There was dinner, there was football, there were presents and decorations. Everyone could do the 25th any way they wanted. The MIL has been dead for probably 20 years, but they still do family Christmas on the first Sunday of the new year.
lol, do we need a “kids these days” thread?
And I’m not laughing, I’m commiserating with everyone.
I’ve also had the therapy buzzwords thrown at me, and after a bit of angst and soul-searching, I’ve decided that a great deal of it, at least in my family, is just the latest version of whatever it was GenX was lashing out at in my day. (Usually in hostile simmering fashion, with a helluva lot of black clothing and safety pins in my ears)
Black-and-white judgments are much much easier at age 20.
This is what I try to tell myself - again reminding myself that any contact is better than what my parental relationship decayed into.
ETA - sorry, this was meant to be a general reply!