<p>I’m sure it’s not. And as long as a guy thinks it’s worth the risk he will take the risk. But if he is with a girl he doesn’t know well and there’s a lot of drinking, he should know the risks </p>
<p>It would be less problematic to simply expel all students who are drunk. Have RAs equipped with a breathalyzer. And have all students required to take the test every night. Blow over say a 1.0 and you’re out. Any student who gets a DUI - out also. A clear, unambigous standard. Grades would go up and date rape would go down.</p>
<p>saintfan said: “I wholeheartedly disagree that the alleged victim’s “character and psychological stability” need to be examined. That takes us right back to the dark ages.”</p>
<p>I said that character and psychological stability should be considered IF there is no evidence and a determination of probable guilt has to be made based ONLY on the victim’s verbal account. What else can the college do, saintfan? Always believe the girl because she’s the girl? Do you think women are weaker and need different treatment in courts and college honor proceedings than men? Do you think all raped women are honest and all accused men are liars? If it can be demonstrated that the accuser has a pattern of lying and false accusations, wouldn’t that be relevant to the proceedings?</p>
<p>I have personal knowledge of an assault case locally in which the young woman is someone who has had non-stop inter-personal relationship troubles since she set foot on campus. Had to change roommates several times, etc. etc. I can’t give more detail, but let’s say there are significant issues and those who know her say she’s completely unstable. Isn’t that relevant if she’s the accuser? </p>
<p>Once we move away from deciding these matters within a strict legal system with rules about standards of proof, don’t we need to allow the colleges some way of making a judgment if there’s no concrete evidence to work with? </p>
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This would not work. It sound like a zero tolerance policy which have proven to be less than successful in other areas (i.e. guns, violence). </p>
<p>There’s a reason as to why some universities have established a code where it doesn’t matter if you’re breaking the law, they’ll help you get to safety. I forget the name of it. </p>
<p>Good Samaritan</p>
<p>Yes, thank you, Consolation. Good Samaritan. But now, looking back at what you actually said TatinG, an automatic expulsion from blowing a 1.0 doesn’t sound so bad. </p>
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<p>The same could be said for the girl. But yet she is absolved from “knowing” due to being intoxicated, while similarly drunk guy is expelled. Why the disconnect?</p>
<p>No. The girl has never been absolved from knowing. She grows up knowing. She grows up being told about this, and being told to be careful and being given long lists of situations to be careful of. And, while these threads love to get stuck on this tiny aberration of a guy being maybe falsely accused, the fact is that one in five of our young daughters will be raped in college. Not have drunk sex, but be raped. This is really not an issue of men being falsely accused, though people love that tangent, it is an epidemic of campus rape. </p>
<p>I don’t agree that girls necessarily grow up knowing that there’s danger from their friends, classmates, other people’s dads, etc. We tell kids about “stranger danger,” not old friend danger or ex-boyfriend danger. Nor do middle class girls necessarily know that domestic violence is something that happens to girls like them, as opposed to the poor/uneducated people on daytime talk shows. We don’t make this kind of education universal.</p>
<p>Kids also have that “it won’t happen to me” attitude that spans generations and time - I won’t get an MIP, I won’t get pregnant, I won’t get a DUI, I’m smarter than blah blah kid (who got an MIP, got pregnant, got a DUI) etc. etc. Until something happens to them or a friend sometimes they dismiss potential dangers. I still recall being lectured, endless, by my mother and father about all sorts of things. I think all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk, and hope that some of it sticks between the ears. </p>
<p>But in general I don’t think we should have a double standard - one for boys and one for girls…that’s unfortunately sometimes what presumption of guilt creates…a double standard that holds one person to a higher level of behavior than another. We know what the women are angry about but if the scales have tilted the other way before one lick of investigation has occured then the men also have a right to complain.</p>
<p>I apologize for the longevity of this post in advance.</p>
<p>I have read most of this thread and find that I agree with statements made on both sides of the issue. First of all, to blithely say, why doesn’t this young, 17 -21 year-old girl report a rape immediately indicates to me a a lack of knowledge about what rape victims go through immediately following a rape. I thought about creating another user name before posting this, but decided that to do that is to perpetuate the problem that exists about reporting rape; therefore, I am going to go ahead and out myself so that I can provide a different perspective. Rape victims need to shed the embarrassment and shame associated with being a rape survivor. </p>
<p>In 2010, at the age of 46, I was raped at gunpoint by someone I know. After the assault, I was completely traumatized and couldn’t put two thoughts together let alone go the police immediately. I just wanted to lie there, go back to the life that I had two hours before this person broke into my house with a gun and raped me and pretend that the whole thing didn’t happen. I cannot state this strongly enough, there is NO one way that a victim behaves after being raped. I can honestly state that if it weren’t for a very good friend of mine, I am not 100% sure that I would have gone to the police in the morning. I am sure that some of you are shaking your head at my previous statement and can’t even begin to fathom the possibility of not reporting a rape. I acknowledge the thought is mind boggling. This is a case where I had a gun to stuck to my temple and feared for my life for several hours. How could I not report the crime? I can only say that you are not thinking rationally at the time. You experience a maelstrom of emotions after you are raped, giving you no choice but to reside in the world of the surreal. You are breathing and moving, but I can guarantee that you are not thinking coherently. My thoughts were swirling, my whole body was shaking and I feared for my safety in every way. The idea of provoking my attacker by reporting him to the police scared me to the depths of my soul. If I, as a 46 year-old woman, had a hard time going to the police, imagine what a 17 - 21 year-old girl would go through. </p>
<p>I did go to the police in the morning, without having showered. Detailing the crime was humiliating. The policeman handed me a piece of paper and asked me to write down what happened. I couldn’t do it. I just couldn’t. Fortunately for me, when he realized that I was unable to write down what happened, he was kind and took notes while I talked. Imagine my horror when the policeman in the Victim Advocate Group said to me, “if the District Attorney decides to prosecute.” I still remember those words and the chill they sent down my spine. I knew that if my attacker was not prosecuted and locked up, I would possibly end up dead. Imagine if a 17 - 21 year old knows someone raped her and still has to see this person on campus every day. I can’t imagine the horror of that situation. Reporting the rape started the most difficult journey of my life. After reporting the rape to the police, I had the luxury of riding in the back seat of a police car to the hospital to have a rape kit done. I never thought that I would see the day that I would ride in the back of a police car. Even though I was not a criminal, it was very humiliating. I wouldn’t wish the rape kit process on my worst enemy. However, the rape kit was a breeze compared to the months and months of legal proceedings that followed and testifying for an entire day at the trial.</p>
<p>A week after the rape, I had my first meeting with the DA, she was very up front and indicated that rape cases between two people who have a past history are very difficult to prosecute. Juries don’t want to convict rapists with whom the victim had a previous relationship. This is not what you want to hear when you have filed a police report alleging rape. Secondly, and rightfully so, throughout the entire process most of the rights reside with the defendant as he can lose his liberty if convicted. Intellectually I completely understand this concept, emotionally it is a completely different matter. The rights of the defendant are very hard to swallow as a victim and many times you feel like you are being victimized again. I was very fortunate to have a wonderful DA and very kind police officers throughout the process. Some victims are not so lucky. </p>
<p>Sorry to be so long, but I wanted to give the background for my next statement. I don’t think that young women can wait to go to the police and report sexual assault. Any evidence that can be used is lost. Even with evidence, many times it comes down to a he said/she said scenario. I personally can understand why someone wouldn’t report a rape and don’t judge them one way or another. NONE of you know what you would do unless you have walked in those shoes. </p>
<p>Having said that, I would not want my son or any young man expelled from school for an alleged assault that someone waited months to report and where no physical evidence exists. I have talked to my son multiple times about what constitutes consent and staying away from drunk/high girls when it comes to sex. IMO, I believe there may be a small amount of false reporting on campus. Also, I don’t think that drunk sex (not incoherently drunk) with regret afterwards is rape or sexual assault. Furthermore, I think that it should be mandatory that anyone who reports someone for sexual assault/rape should have to report it to the police. The idea that you can report it to a campus group responsible for adjudicating the crime and not call the police is ridiculous. If a crime was committed, then it should be reported to the police. The police will be able to link up the victim with support groups and counseling that the victim will definitely need in the aftermath of the crime. I would venture to say that most school counselors are not equipped to effectively counsel rape victims. </p>
<p>We all know that DAs are only going to take cases that they think that they can win. Unfortunately, if your case is weak, it is unlikely that the DA will prosecute. Is this fair? Absolutely not. I cannot imagine finding the courage to report a rape only to be told that the DA isn’t going to prosecute. Stating that because there aren’t a ton of convictions for campus rapes means that there aren’t very many rapes on campus is false logic because we don’t have a clear idea of the ratio of reporting to prosecution to conviction. We really don’t know how many rapes are happening on college campuses. I can almost guarantee that some victims are not reporting the crime. However, watering down the actual assaults to include cases like the one at Occidental, does the victims of actual rape a huge disservice. People are more likely to discount the actual cases when cases like the one at Occidental are pursued as sexual assault. The young man was not a predator attempting to victimize someone. He was a young kid who made a very bad decision.</p>
<p>A true predator, will have a pattern of deviant behavior. If there are multiple reports in the police office about the same person, the DA will be much more likely to prosecute. As others have stated, rape has nothing really to do with sex and everything to do with power and control. </p>
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<p>Not a statistical “fact” (at least forcible); regardless, even one is too many.</p>
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<p>Also incorrect. “Drunk sex” can get a boy kicked out of college. According to the DoJ, a drunk girl cannot consent; thus, it must be non-consensual, by definition.</p>
<p>The Occidental points to the privileging of the accuser. The women in question went to the man’s room to have sex. She was drunk, so was he. Prosecutors said there was no crime, but Occidental decided that even though she consented, she was too drunk to consent. It also found that he was too drunk to realize she was too drunk to consent. But Occidental said that his defense could not be that he was drunk (even though it is a defense to that the accuser was drunk), so he was found guilty by the college of sexual assault. This is the heart of the issue and I suspect that it happens more often than we know. Perhaps some colleges and universities are muddling their way through these thorny issues, but they can’t see the forest through the trees. If two people are drunk what do you have to do…figure out who was drunker? She went to his room…he didn’t go to hers. So you can expel one kid when two were stupid and in this case she’s the one that went to the room. Frankly if they were both under 21 they shoud have been slapped with MIPs and he should have gotten a restraining order but oh wait, he filed a lawsuit. </p>
<p>@momofthreeboys - I completely agree with you. Where was the young woman’s responsibility in all of this? She was equally, if not more culpable as she went to his room. From the little that I have read about the situation, she was actually the aggressor in the situation. </p>
<p>music mom, thank you for sharing your case with us. I started to write “your life,” but then realized the implication that the rape defined your life. Of course it doesn’t, but when you explain how the long and complicated legal process, I hope some people will begin to understand why rape is under reported and how difficult, even devastating, it can be to a college student. </p>
<p>Speaking out is very difficult, and yet I think it is very important that sexual assault be acknowledged and moved, as much as possible, from being a woman’s shame to a public (college) shame. If cultural norms are going to change, then we need to change the language used to describe the crime. I think this is why so many of us get angry over the repeated and forgiving description of drunk college students, which minimizes the acts and actors. At worse, assailants get the noble name of predator when in fact they are perverts and creeps. This minimizing of the assailant’s crime and victim’s pain is widespread, Though it is slightly off topic, the 2 13 or 14 y.o. girls who were raped and killed in India in late May are described as raped, not murdered, even in the BBC press. This implies that the violence of rape is the worst violence a woman can suffer. Rape discourse (the system of language) is twisted in ways that keep us from speaking accurately. I think your description is helpful in clarifying what rape is like.</p>
<p>For the third time I am posting the Pentagon’s rape numbers because I believe that the numbers reflect a similar age population to the colleges, yes a bit older, but not overwhelmingly so. Rape is under-reported.</p>
<p>“A 2012 Pentagon survey found that approximately 26,000 women and men were sexually assaulted. Of those, only 3,374 cases were reported. In 2013, a new pentagon study found that 5,061 troops reported cases of assault. Many people are optimistic that this 50% increase in reports is indicative of victims “growing more comfortable in the system.” Of these reported, however, only 484 cases went to trial, and only 376 resulted in convictions.[1] Ninety percent of the assault victims were eventually involuntarily discharged.[2] Another investigation found that only one in five females and one in 15 males in the United States Air Force would report having been sexually assaulted by service members.[3]”</p>
<p>This will be an interesting case. The lawyer for the young man has released the following - the jist of which is they were both drunk so they assaulted each other;</p>
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<p>It occurred to me that colleges should be required to counsel accusers confidentially BEFORE they report to the university Title IX coordinator. If a report is filed the universities are obligated to follow through whether or not the accuser agrees to give testimony and whether or not the accuser signs the complaint. If the facts are true, that she went to his room, that she asked if he had a condom and if she told a friend she was planning on having sex, this young woman should have counseling and perhaps not reported sexual abuse to a Title IX coordinator. </p>
<p>We’ve all been assuming that women are the sexual victims in most cases. I’d imagine there are plenty of cases in which the woman is the aggressor, using her hands, getting on top…etc. Think how difficult it would be given the biases in these college tribunals for a man to report that he was sexually assaulted.</p>
<p>It never fails to surprise me that these threads turn into this kind of false reporting lament. Even among posters who have repeatedly said all they want is for girls to start to report there is good news. Reporting is up. The bad news? Rapes are not down. </p>
<p><a href=“Campus Rape Reports Are Up, And Assaults Aren't The Only Reason : NPR”>Campus Rape Reports Are Up, And Assaults Aren't The Only Reason : NPR;
<p><a href=“http://www.popcenter.org/problems/rape/”>http://www.popcenter.org/problems/rape/</a></p>
<p><a href=“https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf”>https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf</a></p>
<p><a href=“50 Actual Facts About Rape | HuffPost Women”>HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost;
<p>I’ve included the DOJ report about rape, just in case you feel like looking into it.</p>
<p>Do I feel badly for any young man who is falsely accused of rape? Yes. Do I think this is by any means even the tenth most important issue about the current and past rape crises on campus? Nope. I really do not. And I am sad to see that every thread devolves into this.</p>
<p>The most interesting thing to come out of the current climate, however, is the fact that those who advocate reporting, as if this is the primary reason nothing is done about rapists, are now complaining there is too much reporting and too much support for women who do come forward. Classic double bind. The women are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Double standards? Yeah. Pretty much.</p>
<p>It is important that no one be falsely expelled. That is where the college’s administration comes into it. The institutional action tribunals should be conducted in a fair manner consistent with due process. The accused should be able to see the evidence against him, confront the accuser and any witnesses, have the advice of an attorney and have ample notice. The accuser should also have to make the complaint within a reasonable period of time, not wait months. And if there is inherent bias (as in the case where the accuser was a professor’s daughter, the hearing should be in front of unbiased judges). </p>
<p>Poet you know i think rape and sexual assaults are horrendous and crimes, but I’m seriously thinking that there should be mandatory counseling before calling the Title IX coordinator. That counselor could be the doorkeeper to help young women weigh the decision whether to call the police, whether to avail oneself of the Title IX provisions in the Code of Conduct, or whether to get trauma counseling. There is a reliable statistic and I will post if I can find that says between 2-8% of accusations are false. While that is no where near the probable realistic percentage of rapes it is too high for colleges to be presuming the accused is guilty. I feel like there is currently too much political pressure on untrained Code of Conduct councils - I believe there are students on the occidental one- to make clear reasoned judgements.</p>