Top colleges admissions without AP sciences?

Parents Forum
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<p>After 20 info sessions where he heard "most rigorous curriculum offered", my son felt he had to take AP Calc in senior year, even though he doesn't love math and the teacher is not so good. His HS has only one AP science class--Bio-- and he refused to take this (even though it was taught by a wonderful teacher) because he's really disinterested in bio. Instead he's taking Advanced Topics in Physics and Chemistry, which he argued was the highest he could go in those 2 subjects. His school only offers 6 APs, no honors and no IB. In some ways, this could be an advantage. The schools don't expect you to take what isn't offered and with block scheduling, the only college courses he could have taken would be night school. He wasn't willing to do this and it would have conflicted with drama.</p>

<p>I think, though, that 4 "solid" academic subjects might be a good idea. My son has done at least 5 every year (math, science, English, social studies and foreign language) in addition to Algebra I and French I from middle school.</p>

<p>Obviously, though, if there is a passion, it is good to follow it.</p>

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<p>Myau,</p>

<p>My son's chorus director told the kids that "you don't choose music, music chooses you". </p>

<p>If your daughter is not passionate about making music her life, I doubt that she will be a good match for conservatory life. She shouldn't make this decision because someone told her she had the talent or ability. Instead, she should choose it because nothing less than a full-blown involvement in music will satisfy her.</p>

<p>If she is interested in other subjects, she should choose an environment that encourages, or at least allows, exploration.</p>

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<p>She shouldn't make this decision because someone told her she had the talent or ability..</p>

<p>She doesn't. The influence of those "someones" mostly contributes to her false (or, maybe, not) hopes that she might actually succeed on that path. The path by itself seems to be attractive to her no matter what others (including me ;-)) say.</p>

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<p>Oh dear. You are in a tough spot, wanting to support your intelligent, hard working but not brilliantly talented daughter without stiffeling her dreams. Well, I have this suggestion, though I don't know if it is possible, but it's worth a try. Tape her playing the 3 [ which is the minimum any music program will require for audition purposes] most difficult pieces she has memorized and contact the music depts at some of the colleges/ conservatories she wants to visit to see if someone there would listen to the tape, and tell her if she has the "right stuff" to qualify for conservatory level admissions. Not being good enough for a conservatory does not mean she can't make music a big part of her college career and life, but finding out sooner that later may save both of you a lot of stress and heartache, as well as $$ and time spent on auditions that lead to disappointment.</p>

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<p>*Tape her playing the 3 [ which is the minimum any music program will require for audition purposes] most difficult pieces she has memorized *</p>

<p>Are music depts. people known to do such things - "pre-screening" prospective student's level before she applies? Would the compiled videotape of a few of her recent recitals do as such "pre-screening" material? We thought about trying to get some sample lessons while visiting colleges and then ask about her level being appropriate or not for the given school. Which way is better?</p>

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<p>Btw, I'm just curious: how many classes at a time are expected from college students to take?</p>

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<p>I can't answer your first question for sure, but upon re-reading posts by BassDad, it seems you can ask for sample lessons with enough advance warning. I would think sample lessons would be the best way to go. As for compiled videotape, most colleges ask for cassette tapes or CD's, not videotapes, and they ask that the tapes be limited to 15 min or under. I would also ask your question on the Music Majors forum.
Re: # of classes- It depends on whether the college runs on the quarter or semester system and how many units are required for graduation. For semester system it is usually 4-4unit classes/semester. For quarter- it's usually 3-4 classes/quarter.</p>

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<p>For semester system it is usually 4-4unit classes/semester. For quarter- it's usually 3-4 classes/quarter.</p>

<p>And how does the workload compare to that of the high school one? How much of APs (and which APs) are equal in terms of the workload to those 3-4 college classes?</p>

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<p>Myau, my daughter feels that the work load is easier to manage in college than in high school because there is less time spent in class. The amount of reading for each class is much higher in college, but she says it was much harder to find the time to do the work when she was in school every day from 8 am to 4 p.m. (leaving home in the morning for school at 7:30, and not getting home until 4:30 or 5.). She says in high school she would get home totally exhausted and have several hours of homework -- a college course load of 15 units means about 15 hours spent in class during the whole week (*somewhat more for labs) -- and usually several hours during the course of a day between classes when she can read or study. I remember feeling the same way back when I was in college.</p>

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<p>All my kids feel that the college work is less... ermmm... intimidating and require less strain than the work in high school. I was surprised when somebody implied earlier in this thread that if the kid feels overstressed with all the APs, she should not try to get into top schools because she sure will not be able to handle the work. </p>

<p>Just like calmom said, the classes at any university take less time than the high-school classes; besides, no sane professor will assign 3 hours of daily homework... (and I sincerely do not think that this amount of busywork is required for studying any subject, AP or not). Well, some classes may require a lot of reading, but that's different. Wise students do not schedule several reading-heavy classes simultaneously, anyway.</p>

<p>Workload in public universities is on the average 5 classes/semester, in private - 4-5 classes/semester, for trimester system (which is different from quarter) - 3 classes/semester (which results in the same 9 classes/year). That's the amount one has to take in order to fulfill the graduation requirements in 4 years. Of course, if one wants to double-major (or is an engineer) he may have to take more; and some kids do take more "just for fun"; and if one has a lot of AP and IB credits, he may be able to take less... it depends.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
how many classes at a time are expected from college students to take?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It really depends on the college and calendar, and whether the college offers a quarter and semester calendar, or offers a trimester (which looks like quarter) or a semester program with an intercession (e.g., one class in Jan). Also, depends on AP/IB credits. </p>

<p>At two semester schools, Princeton and Cal, for example, students will need to take 4+ cousese each semester to graduate in four years. Princeton requires 17 couses to be completed by the end of Soph year, which means 4 classes in three semester and 5 in one semester. Also on the semester system, Cal requires 120 units to graduate, thus a student needs to average 30 units per year, or 15 per semester. Since many classes are 4 units, the minimum load is 4+ classes.</p>

<p>On a quarter system, as practiced by many UCs and Cal States, 180 units are required to graduate. With many classes also being four units per class, the average quarter load is 4+ to graduate in four years. UChicago, also on the quarter system, requires a minimum of 42 classes to graduate, or 6 quarters when a student must take 4 classes.</p>

<p>When one looks at the schedule this way, its understandable why adcoms at highly selective schools prefer to see a rigorous selection of academic core courses senior year. Since the college will expect a student to take ~7 college courses as a Frosh, taking a light academic load senior year is not preparation for the next level.</p>

<p>In comparison to AP courses: AP Stats and AP Pysch would be taught over one quarter or one semester at a college. Calc BC and the big three sciences (bio, physics, chem) can earn two quarter or two semeter credits, depending on the score and school. For example, UChicago provides three quarters of credit for a 5 on AP Chem.</p>

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<p>The rule of thumb is that for every hour spent in class in college, you should expect 1-2 hours of work outside the classroom. This varies a lot- depending on the courses and the college. At U of Chicago,a college which has a reputation for students having to work HARD, students are expected to work outside of class closer to 2 hours/class. And because of small class sizes and the fact that many professors there use the Socratatic method to teach, there is no hiding if you aren't prepared.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
This varies a lot- depending on the courses and the college.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>and I would add, "and the student's expectations and standards."</p>

<p>Typical classes may meet only twice a week for an hour or and hour and a half. 3 hours x 2 = 6 hours of outside time per week per course? I'd say that's quite a bit less than either of my kids spend per class - and my son isn't one to overwork anything, but he does want to get high grades. If your kids are in small classes where participation is expected, and a few papers are the norm per course, they may spend a good deal more time than that. Papers are time consuming, especially with research involved.
This would be an interesting topic for another thread, yes?</p>

<p>I do believe though, that there is probably room for one heavy extracurricular activity, like music or a sport, for most kids, and they still would have some time to just have fun.</p>

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<p>"Calc BC and the big three sciences (bio, physics, chem) can earn two quarter or two semeter credits, depending on the score and school. For example, UChicago provides three quarters of credit for a 5 on AP Chem."</p>

<p>At Georgia Tech a 5 on AP Chem, AP Bio, AP Calc BC, etc. only provides one semester credit.</p>

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<p>So, as I suspected (and heard from people), college workload, a least, can be more bearable than junior year h/s one. Then I fail to understand, why adcoms want the kids to kill themself with the workload at h/s?</p>

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<p>I think the statistics show that students receive lower grades in college than they do in HS, excluding the two colleges known for grade inflatoin. A highly selective college accepts kids mostly in the top decile of their HS. By definition, 50% of those matriculants will be in the BOTTOM half of their college class. Looked at another way, the vast majority of matriculating premeds (who received A's in AP sciences and Calc) never end up applying to med school... mostly bcos their grades are too low to be competitive.</p>

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<p>I think the statistics show that students receive lower grades in college than they do in HS</p>

<p>I am not sure that the reason (at least, partially) of that is not the burnout the kids get from their overstressed h/s years. Then they come to colleges, see how "relaxed" life there is compared to the h/s one, don't have somewhat limiting parents presence there ... and the next thing they see are their grades slipping, the undone work is piling up etc.</p>

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<p>And a BIG part of the reason is that college classes get progressively harder and harder than HS.</p>

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<p>myau:</p>

<p>Huh? In HS, a student typically takes 4-5 academic courses, honor or AP/IB. In college, they are expected to take 7-8 courses. How is that more relaxed?</p>

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<p>7-8 at a time?</p>