<p>Well, I don't know about any physics - online or not - D is pretty sure she doesn't want to have anything to do with it anymore, unless it's required by the college curriculum. (This is one of the reasons why I'm reluctant about inststing on her taking Chem AP at school - it looks like so much of the interest (or lack thereof) depends or the right (or wrong) teacher.)</p>
<p>CC is located in the short drive from our home (not much longer than to her school, but in the opposite direction, unfortunately). Yes, there are some inconveniences involved (more "chunky" day), but D is sure she can handle it. </p>
<p>The problem is, right now she is not sure what kind of schools will be mostly on her list by senior fall (applications time): conservatory-affiliated ones wich require auditions, or just academically strong top colleges with the decent music departments (without auditions). The first type urges her to free as much of her time as possible for practice and preparation (some friends who already went through the proccess say that even the lightest version of her supposed senior workload is too much), and the second, just on the opposite, needs more serious-looking senior schedule. There are both types of schools currently on her list for the spring visiting (in April) and then deciding, but she needs to choose her next year classes the next week.</p>
<p>Myau -- she should choose the heavier schedule, simply because it is probably easier to drop courses than add them. (But whatever is the heaviest she was considering for herself -- not the added complications of AP Chem or other courses she doesn't want in any case -- I still think it's crazy to jump through hoops just to look good for the colleges).</p>
<p>The way my d put it: If they won't take me because I didn't take X and so or because I didn't take 5 APs senior year, then it's not the right place for me anyway.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Myau -- she should choose the heavier schedule, simply because it is probably easier to drop courses than add them.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not sure this is necessarily true.</p>
<p>Music courses can also be hard to schedule because they may have only one section. (Jazz Band may meet during second period and only during second period.) </p>
<p>It may be a lot harder to create a schedule that allows the student to be in the one-and-only section of Jazz Band than in one of the six sections of AP English, for example.</p>
<p>"The problem is, right now she is not sure what kind of schools will be mostly on her list by senior fall (applications time): conservatory-affiliated ones wich require auditions, or just academically strong top colleges with the decent music departments (without auditions). "</p>
<p>See, you're making progress; you've got the problem stated pretty clearly.</p>
<p>My nephew omitted calculus and science senior year and went the conservatory route. Part of his reason for doing so was to preserve his val status for merit scholarships - important to the family. </p>
<p>Was it taking a chance? Yes - but only if you consider anything below the tippity top of USNWR a failure. </p>
<p>What is your D's HS policy on dropping or changing courses? If she could by herself even a little more time to decide it would be helpful.</p>
<p>On AP Chemistry - its really better to have a good teacher in this; its not an easy course.</p>
<p>Hi Myau,
Let me ask you a question, which I don't think has been answered before [ my sincere apologises if it has!!]-Has your daughter won or placed hi in any regional/ state music competitions, either in piano or violin? Has she won awards for her playing? Is she better than most any other talented local musician you have heard play? The reason I'm asking is that many, if not most of the students she may be competing against in auditions are phenomenally talented musicians from around the nation, who are committed to a career in music. The competition for openings at top music conservatories is just as intense as trying to get into the Ivy's. What my son discovered after starting at his college, which has very talented musicians in their school of music, was although he intellectually and academically knew more about music from his hours of intense, personal study of music than most students there, he didn't have enough of the raw, pure talent to compete with those who were going to devote their life to music. If she is that talented then it may be difficult for her to schedule her Sr year because of her diverse interests, but she will hopefully have many choices to make come April 2008. Just my 2 c's.</p>
<p>menloparkmom, the answer for all your questions is no. I discussed that concern fo mine in the musical forum (and there people was reassuring me that it's ok ;-)) - not only she hadn't win much of the competitions, she actually has had very few participations. Is it your point that she shouldn't try to audition if she hasn't much of the stellar competitions results?</p>
<p>Myau, there are conservatories for kids at all levels. There are also colleges for kids at all levels. I don't recall a single post from you suggesting that your daughter had her heart set on an Ivy League college or Julliard... but you are getting Ivy League/Julliard quality advice. </p>
<p>I hope that you have the good sense to take most of it with a grain of salt. If your daughter does not end up at one college, she will find herself at another. She will have to audition to get into most conservatory programs -- but she can and should aim for programs appropriate for her proficiency level. She might instead opt for a liberal arts college where there is a strong emphasis on arts but where an audition is not required and there are classes and performance opportunities for all levels. </p>
<p>Based on the accomplishments and course work your daughter has already completed, she has nothing to worry about in terms of a good outcome next year. 95% of colleges are not so madly competitive that any one is going to care whether she takes AP Chem or physics or not. </p>
<p>I sometimes thank my lucky stars that I did not discover any internet boards like this back when my son was first applying to colleges -- much nicer to just let him do his thing and mail off his applications and watch the acceptance letters flow in. And I am equally thankful for a daughter who refused to listen to well-intended but mistaken advice about what she needed to do to remold herself for college admissions. </p>
<p>So... as my daughter would say... just chill. </p>
<p>I am saying this because of the qualifications your daughter already has. She sounds like an amazing, smart, talented, passionate young woman who will probably get into a dozen or more excellent colleges and conservatories if she just has the courage and confidence to be herself. </p>
<p>Go back to the music forum and ask the people there who were offering reassurance what colleges they recommend for your daughter. I am sure there are places that are a good match for her level of proficiency.</p>
<p>Go back to the music forum and ask the people there who were offering reassurance what colleges they recommend for your daughter.</p>
<p>Well, they didn't hear my D playing - how can they say? :-)</p>
<p>Actually, the funny thing is, in my wildest dreams I couldn't imagine all this years (when she studied music) that she would be considering music as a profession. Therefore, we didn't bother seriously with competitions - she did it from one time to another, just for fun. Never been a winner - just sometimes a prizer or semi-finalist or finalist ... and I assumed, since there are so many kids around (especially, in our area) who play better than she does, that she shouldn't even bother with more competing or auditioning. I always insisted that she should focus on academics more and do music for fun. And then it appeared that everybody started asking her (or us) whether she would go for a music career. That gave her some wild ideas, I guess. :-)</p>
<p>following up on calmom, not only are there all levels of colleges and conservatories in the country, there is the opportunity to combine passions.
For example, my H majored in Music but at Oberlin College and NOT through the Conservatory! There, as a college music major, he took courses at the Conservatory, but never had to audition or meet their stratospheric expectations for senior recital, etc. Voice was his instrument.
Actually, for him, Music was a double-major, along with Religion, a very academic subject. While he didn't have the conservatory training, he also didn't have to practice to the level of the Conservatory voice majors. Still, he had the teachers, the ambience, the visiting musicians, smart kids who loved music, musical kids who had great ideas. There might have been a priority re: tutors, and I don't know the details.
He never wanted a performing career in Music. If he had, he could have pursued the double degree in 5 years (B.A. and B.M.). There were limitations, of course, to which musical resources he could use from the Conservatory, as it is fair and appropriate to reserve most things for Conservatory students. As an example, he wasn't eligible to join a Conservatory choir (they sing like angels) and yet there was a separate "College Choir" that toured, recorded and so on; all the goodies. Years later, when my S double-majored in Music at Amherst and sang in the Amherst Concert Choir, it seemed that my H's and S's opportunities were about on par. I'm smiling when I say "on par" b/c my H's choir was as excited to sing in Chicago as my S's choir felt to perform in Japan and Prague... the mind boggles sometimes.
I know you'll research all carefully with D next year, wherever she might look.<br>
My H ended up doing exactly, exACTly what he wanted in this life: became a rabbi who could carry a tune (there are hardly any, y'know). It certainly helps him at contract renewal time, not to mention all the joy it brings into his life. He began his career serving congregations that could not afford a cantor and he was selected precisely because he was the unusual "two-fer." (= "two-for-one value" for those reading from overseas)
So, she might be a good candidate for a "blend" situation of music and academics. It can work out nicely, indeed.</p>
<p>Hi myau, my point was that for some conservatories, such as Peabody and Oberlin, whose sole purpose IS to train musicians for a career in music, it MAY not be worth it for your daughter to spend the considerable time and effort it takes to prepeare for, apply to and audition there, considering the competition your daughter will be up against, and the slim [for even the very talented] chances of acceptance. You spoke earlier of how stressed she has been this year, and for her to have to add hours of time to prepare for auditons to "reach" conservatories during her Sr. might not be worth it to her in the end. She sounds like she has such varied academic interests at this point that music conservatories might be too limiting.
As Pay3 offers really good advice and I agree that there "not only are there all levels of colleges and conservatories in the country, there is the opportunity to combine passions" There are dozens of wonderful colleges and universities that have great music programs, as well as great academic programs, where students don't have to choose between the two- they can do both.</p>
<p>"Go back to the music forum and ask the people there who were offering reassurance what colleges they recommend for your daughter". I agree with these suggestions.</p>
<p>Myau -- all I meant was to get some suggestions for conservatories that aren't as selective as Julliard, etc. I have no idea how well your daughter plays -- or even what instrument she plays -- so probably for a conservatory or BFA program she ought to have a reach/match/safety approach. For example, my daughter has two dancer friends from high school who auditioned at Tisch and are now attending SUNY Purchase. SUNY has an easier program to get into, though I'd actually argue that when you take costs into account, it's a better program for a serious dancer... given what professional dancers can expect to earn. It in other words it is an excellent, well-respected, affordable program... whereas Tisch also offers an excellent program, but not one that I as a parent would be willing to pay for. </p>
<p>But I don't know anything about programs for instrumental music- so you will have to ask somewhere else. My d has friends at Berklee School of Music, and also at Manhattan School of Music -- but I have no idea how difficult it is to get into those programs. You just need to find out a range: which are the hardest to get into, which are the easiest --- along with some recommendations or suggestions from anyone who happens to be knowledgeable about particular teachers at various schools. I think that many prospective students will arrange to visit the school and book a private lesson with the teacher for their instrument-- but I don't know the procedures for that.</p>
<p>Or you can back off entirely and tell your d. that she needs to check these things out -- and point her in the right direction. It is quite possible that she might find the whole audition process overwhelming and that in itself could be something that would help her decide against the conservatory option, and go for the LAC option instead. </p>
<p>I am sure there are music web sites with all sorts of information -- I just don't know what they are. But I do know that she does not have to have won a gazillion awards or have been named most valuable player in the state-championship youth orchestra or whatever it is they call these things in order to get accepted to a music program.</p>
<p>She just has to play well enough to meet the entrance standards at the audition. It will be really important for her to familiarize herself with the requirements of the audition, in terms of what she will be expected to play. I'm sure that this information is made available as part of the process of signing up for an audition, but it helps to know about it far enough in advance to get in plenty of practice. Kids who have competed or auditioned a lot have the advantage of being more familiar with the format, so they tend to audition better - whereas newbies get nervous and make more mistakes -- but it's all about how the kid plays in front of the people doing to audition. Your daughter should also have an audition CD produced because that can be sent to some colleges in lieu of a live audition -- so it would also help her to learn something about how to go about recording that.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that if she's good enough, she will get into whatever program is right for her. Being rejected from a reach conservatory is just good feedback that the student needs more time and practice with the instrument, suited to the individual ability level. And if somehow she plays so poorly that she can't make the grade anywhere (think about all the people who think they are singing when they audition for "American Idol") -- then that just means that a conservatory is not such a good idea after all. But somehow I have the impression that she's a lot better than that. ;)</p>
<p>There are full-fledged professional music majors (the kind you have to audition for) at some universities that also have comprehensive programs in other fields. One that attracts many prospective music majors in my area is Indiana University. Another is the University of Maryland.</p>
<p>If your daughter is considering a serious, professional music major (by which I mean a Bachelor of Music that you audition for, rather than a Bachelor of Arts in Music, which is a less intense program and may or may not require an audition), she should be talking with her private music teacher and her high school music teacher about places to apply, audition requirements, etc. And she should probably start working on the audition music over the summer.</p>
<p>calmom, as people explained to me at the music forum, there is no sure way to find out what music program is a "reach, match or safety" for anybody. Too many variables - and not all of them depend on the level of the applicant.</p>
<p>Nobody is talking about Julliard, btw. ;) DD is thinking about double-degree in music and some academic field, or double major, or major and minor. So, her interest is in academically strong universities with the strong music program; therefore, she might need to impress them both ways - musically as well as academically.</p>
<p>"Her ideas about what she wants to major in is very unclear at this point, but she is certain that she'd like to continue music studies and learn as many languages as possible.</p>
<p>"I assumed, since there are so many kids around (especially, in our area) who play better than she does, that she shouldn't even bother with more competing or auditioning. I always insisted that she should focus on academics more and do music for fun. And then it appeared that everybody started asking her (or us) whether she would go for a music career. "</p>
<p>Hi Myau,
I get a feeling that perhaps[?] what started the turmoil was well meaning suggestions by acquaintances or friends, suggesting your daughter should apply to so-and-so conservatory because she is "so talented", who were trying to be encouraging and supportive of you or your daughter in the college application process, but who don't know how competative it is trying to get into conservatories, or don't know what is expected of conservatory students once they are in. [sorry for the run on sentence]
I remember advice posted on CC a few years back, which basically said that students shouldn't apply to a college because someone who doesn't know them really well suggested it, as in: just tryit , what do you have to lose?
Your first statement that I pasted above, should , in my opinion, be the one that you and your daughter remember to, because she has made it clear that she wants to study two things in college, not just one, and she simply won't have the time to do a double major successfully if she studying for a Bachelor of Music at a music conservatory. So my revised suggestion is to look for colleges/ universities that have strong programs in languages as well as offer BA's in music, not just BM's. You have already found one that you said you daugter loved, the U of C, and there are many others out there. Order a copy of "Ruggs Recommendations", which you can get directly online by doing a google search, because it lists colleges by the majors they offer, and you can then cross check to see who offers both languages and music programs. Within each major, it lists colleges by" most selective, more selective," etc, so you can get an idea of what your daughters reaches, matches, safeties may be. This is the book that helped us the most in our initial college search last year, as my son wanted a college that had BOTH strong Geology, English and Music programs. We then looked at the Fiske guide for more information, and then started to visit colleges that looked like they had potential.
The advice you have received from the Music Majors forum is well informed and wel meaning, but it may be slanted toward conservatories because it is from parents whose children ARE music majors.</p>
<p>"So, her interest is in academically strong universities with the strong music program; therefore, she might need to impress them both ways - musically as well as academically."
Believe me, she WILL be able to impress them with her passion for music, in her essays, in the letters of recommendation she should get from her music teacher, and in the music tapes she should send in with her application.
But if she wants to have the BEST chance at "academically strong universiteis", then I will say again that she needs to not have what could look like a "lite" senior year academic schedule. She needs to have 4 core academic classes, in order to be competative with other students applying to the same universities.</p>
<p>Myau, although in general I am not a big fan of paid college counselors, yours is one case where a consultation might well be worth it.</p>
<p>There are so many variables in the situation you are describing, compounded by your daughters talents across the board, that you might get a big bang for the buck by having your daughter meet with someone who is proficient with the music admissions process. I don't know many kids who could launch a full-blown effort to be admitted to a conservatory and still have "a life" as your daughter put it, much less keep up an academic profile to keep her in the game for top schools should the music thing not pan out. Somehow the auditions are always scheduled for the week of SAT 2's, or a scholarship weekend at a top choice college; or the day a big paper is due in one of her classes. For kids who are throwing 100% of their energies behind conservatory admissions the decision is clear.... for a kid who still wants some other choices come April the decision is less clear, and for sure does not make for a less stressful year than the junior year you've just described.</p>
<p>The other phenomenon you need to consider (and a professional can help here) is that parents often overestimate how much of a boost the music thing is at some top schools (see Andi's postings from two years ago if you can find them....) For the kids just below conservatory level, the competition at top U's is fierce unless the instrument is obscure and the person in the campus orchestra who played it is about to graduate. If for some reason your daughter decides (during the summer as she's prepping for auditions; burnout?) that she wants to be a regular "I could major in psych or cog sci or languages person but I am a highly skilled musician" she may find that the music doesn't push her quite as high as you had assumed. And it's precisely in that situation that a "lite" senior year could become problematic.</p>
<p>Anyway, we don't know your daughter, but if the GC doesn't know music, and the music instructors don't know college admissions, I'd find myself an expert tout suite.</p>
<p>Totally agree with blossom . Talented pianists, violinist are almost "a-dime-a-dozen'" when it comes to applicants to top universities, as many students recently have discovered. Music is not a hook these days, it is considered an EC that is looked at as additional information, NOT as a reason to admit a bright student, as your daughter is, if she falls short academically because of a light Sr year schedule.</p>
<p>My D has been accepted to one of the most highly selective private universities with three years of lab science on her transcript, none of them APs. However, her counselor indicated on her recommendation that her course load in high school was in the most challenging category. It might be useful to ask your D's college counselor whether her proposed schedules would be tagged as most challenging by him/her.</p>
<p>Like your D, myau, my D is a humanities lover who by the end of junior year had completed many honors classes or APs including AP Calc BC, AP language foreign language, and AP US History. (She also took an AP science exam even though the course leading up to it was an honors course.)</p>
<p>For her senior year, although she would have preferred to drop all math/science courses, she decided to continue with math (multivariable calc) for the sake of college admissions, but dropped science and foreign language. Besides the MV calc, she is taking 5 humanities AP courses (a heavy load at her school) - but she's really enjoying her classes this year (more than in junior year) because she chose them based on genuine interest. She also continues with extracurriculars (including music) that have significant time commitments. Taking an AP science course in her senior year instead of something she wanted to take would have added stress and drudgery to a time that is already stressful because of the college application process.</p>
<p>Likewise, classmates of my D have received acceptances at highly selective collleges who haven't taken any AP science, who might be taking AP Calc AB as seniors even though others have taken AP Calc BC as juniors, but who might be taking AP literature foreign language having completed AP language foreign language. </p>
<p>As others have said, a lot will depend on the local context of your D's school and how the school is viewed by the colleges, as well as all the other factors - grades, standardized test scores, essays, recs, etc. I also agree with menloparkmom, that your daughter should have at least 4 academic solids in her senior year (whether at the high school or community college) to stay in the highly selective game, if that's her goal.</p>