<p>I’m in a similar situation (<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/896832-debt-vs-free-utexas-vs-upenn-vs-ole-miss.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/896832-debt-vs-free-utexas-vs-upenn-vs-ole-miss.html</a>) as the OP. We’re in the same predicament, and it’s very tough to choose which one.</p>
<p>BlackRoses, </p>
<p>Right now, you’ve heard a lot of people tell you do not, under any circumstances go to Harvey Mudd… HOWEVER, the decision is up to you. I’m in a similar situation. I will be in $45,000 worth of debt when I graduate minimum, it could go as high as 80 or 90,000. I’ve already figured out how to afford to pay back the loans. I know that Sarah Lawrence is worth it. </p>
<p>However, you wanted responses from people who have gone into debt. I only read one story about a girl who wanted to go to SLC, but didn’t take on the debt undergrad and went for graduate school. She regretted not going for undergrad, but loved graduate all the same. </p>
<p>I found this tool to be extremely helpful for determining whether or not I could afford to go to SLC: [Budget</a> calculator](<a href=“Mapping Your Future: Page not found”>Mapping Your Future: Page not found) HM says you’ll make 65-69,000 average, so good luck!</p>
<p>Squiddly:</p>
<p>Right you are. </p>
<p>If you are low income, no problem, nothing but financial aid for you…from the school, and through a load of federal programs.</p>
<p>If you are high income, most likely you have the resources to fund your child’s education.</p>
<p>If you are middle class, you are pretty much out of luck if you are looking at a private college. The exponential rise in the cost of higher education over the past 10 to 20 years has outpaced the rise in incomes to such a degree as to make it utterly unaffordable. In our economy, saving enough to fund a child’s education has been an impossible task for most families.</p>
<p>But there is another wrinkle, too. If you are really smart, you will receive merit scholarships, right? In some cases, yes. But at many, many colleges, the push for diversity is so strong, there are endless examples of stunningly bright kids who are not accepted, or who are wait-listed, while target population kids who are far less qualified are admitted. College Confidential is full of kids who post their admission stats to verify this. It is not unusual to see target population kids who have SATs and GPAs FAR lower than their non-target peers being admitted, while the more qualified student does not get admitted. This is fact, even though it is politically incorrect to point it out.</p>
<p>I will hasten to add that I completely favor diversity initiatives at colleges. But the practice of lowering of the bar to achieve it is a blatantly unfair practice and discriminates against those who are better qualified, no matter their personal background. If a college wants diversity, and also purports to be highly selective, let the best kids in, no matter their personal status. Fair is fair.</p>
<p>So, in the end, it is the state universities that are filling up with really smart, middle class kids, and the schools are very happy to have them. With 80% of kids in college attending state schools, it’s a fact that is often overlooked. </p>
<p>Anyone considering a state school would do well to bear this in mind. At a good school, you have plenty of very smart company, which makes for a better experience overall. And one without an elitist overtone.</p>
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<p>Yeah, I’m just grumbling - I know that many people can’t afford to pay the true cost of their education, and that money must come from somewhere. And funding for lower-income scholarships is a Very Good Thing for everyone in the long-run. But when people talk about entering the job market already owing six-figures in debt …</p>
<p>I’m really happy to live in a state with a strong public college offering, as does the OP. I see more and more kids taking the state-school route, which in my mind, is a wise decision.</p>
<p>Blackroses- Apologies for my earlier posts. I want to just throw a few thoughts into the already informative and helpful advice from all the above postings. Any amount of debt incurred by going to your dream college will be like a black cloud following you wherever you go- affecting all fiscal decisions(large and small) you will make, any decisions your mother makes concerning her business, and jeopardizing the retirement and financial health of your family. Have you seen a US national debt clock? It shows the cumulative amount the US owes-the numbers zoom by at a dizzying rate. You will have a personal debt clock, with dollar amounts increasing every day and night. You mentioned wanting to go to grad school. Do you need the stress of grades and mounting debt shade your college experiences? Prepared to say no to going out with friends, always pleading to be cash poor, watching your mother and father sacrifice, scrimping and saving? Perhaps the stress will give you the motivation and drive to achieve. That could be a good thing, but is it for you?
Good Luck to you and your family.</p>
<p>Personally I think targeted populations should be insulted that too many institutions lower the bar for them. Realistically, it doesn’t even out the playing field. If we are concerned that certain populations have lower numbers of teens unable to meet the higher standards than instead of lowering the standards, which in effect is like saying that no one thinks they are capable of meeting the higher standards, we, including their parents, should work hard to help them meet the standards.</p>
<p>*I will be in $45,000 worth of debt when I graduate minimum, it could go as high as 80 or 90,000. I’ve already figured out how to afford to pay back the loans. I know that Sarah Lawrence is worth it. *</p>
<p>I’m curious as to what your plan is to pay back loans as high as $80-90k? </p>
<p>What is your likely career and how much do you think you’ll be earning upon graduation and during your early years? Where will you likely be living then?</p>
<p>Batilo,</p>
<p>Good points all for BlackRose to consider. While she shows considerable maturity in planing how to pay off her future debt, life decisions can often be made by contemplating the softer issues—things that a typical 17 or 18 year old could more easily identify with:</p>
<p>…not being able to afford the simple day to day pleasures that make life interesting and enjoyable…</p>
<p>These don’t have to be big items, mind you, like expensive vacations or driving a decent car instead of a rust bucket. More often it is the inability to be able to afford to actually fill said car with gas, to repair it when things come up, to eat something besides macaroni every day, to replace your jeans when they wear out, to see a movie once in a while with friends, to pay for the texting option on your cell phone bill, to afford the higher speed option for your internet service, etc. </p>
<p>The devil is always in the details. It is the unexpected expenses in life that drive us all crazy. Those who are in too much debt struggle terribly with such inevitable things. Those who have lived within their means take it in stride and move on. </p>
<p>To, at 18 years old, knowingly saddle oneself with debt that will stretch out potentially for decades, is a choice one is free to make. Just don’t cry about it later.</p>
<p>proud_mom:</p>
<p>So true. And in the end, I think the lowering of the bar most likely causes those accepted students to struggle at that school. The irony is, these elite, selective academic schools are only watering down the collective strength their student body… </p>
<p>…and ensuring that some really brilliant kids will be elsewhere, achieving great things, eventually having successful careers, and NOT saying they are a graduate of said “elite” school.</p>
<p>Kind of funny when you think about it.</p>
<p>I know too many adults who are dealing with mounds of student loan debt after life didn’t work out how they had planned it. It is great to make plans, but life sometimes has different plans for us than what we make.</p>
<p>Wow, thanks guys for all your input. And no I’m not just going to go and do what I want and blow all this off. It really is helpful, and I really appreciate it. I’ve been talking to my parents, my teachers, my guidance counselor, parents of students at Mudd (on here), current students I know, and people who have graduated (on here).
You guys have shared a lot of information, including stuff about the future and the economy I need to be aware about, such as retirement funds, etc. I also completely agree that it is so much easier for poor and rich kids to afford top private schools, while the middle class kids get screwed over. I’m also kind of upset that UCI wouldn’t even give me some merit aid, but I guess that’s just how the economy is now.
First, I just want to add a bit of information that was asked throughout the last few posts. My parents divorced when I was six, and yes my mom does not want to pay more than what my dad can contribute as of right now. They do not hate one another at all, so she doesn’t have a problem with me going to UCI. The strangest thing is, my mom is really encouraging me to take out loans as an investment. My mom’s a doctor with her own business- which is currently not doing well so she’s taking money out of her savings to pay her business, which obviously isn’t shown on FAFSA. She is telling me to take big loans out, but I keep telling her that I will not be making as much as she does as a doctor, since I’m going into Engineering. I asked her how much debt she has and she said about $100k, not including mortgage. We live in a nice house, and she lives a pretty lavishing lifestyle.
UCI does not even have a nuclear engineering program, and the only UC that does is Berkeley. However, I have done some research at UCI in the chemical engineering department regarding the nuclear spent fuel cycle, so I know there are opportunities there to learn about it. I’m not sure if I should get a chemical engineering BS with a concentration in nuclear science (this wouldn’t show up on my degree of course, but in my classes taken and my research completed).
Lastly, I see a lot of people are saying I will have debt incurring in grad school. I was told that there are loans that do not incur during grad school, or community service work. Also, in the hard sciences anyway, such as engineering, grad school is pretty much paid for 3/4 of the time. This is what my dad told me, and he is a UCI CS professor who graduated from Yale and taught at Cornell. He told me to not even worry about that as long as I have above a 3.5 GPA.
I know the ideal situation is to graduate debt free from undergrad. Unlike many people that have advised me here, I would be willing to incur some debt to go to HMC. I am currently making that out at $40k. With a $80k starting salary out of grad school, I think this amount would be manageable. But beyond that, I think it would be foolish. My mother also said she could probably get me a loan with a 5.25% interest rate instead of 8. I know many on here advise against that, but I would be willing to live conservatively for say 5 years out of grad school in order to receive an amazing undergraduate education. I hope I also made it clear that it’s not by any means the “prestige” surrounded by Mudd that attracts me to it. It’s the education, the people, the professors. It’s amazing.
On a note to the person who is attending Sarah Lawrence. The Financial Aid officer at Mudd used to work at Sarah Lawrence. Just thought that was interesting. Also, I don’t think 80-90k of debt has anything to do with it being “worth it”. I’m sure you love SL as much as I love HMC, but that amount of debt will screw you over so much in the long run. It’s kind of funny because just this past fall when I was considering applying ED to Mudd, I was telling myself and everyone that I loved it so much I would be willing to take out 100k in loans because it was worth it. It’s easy to say because it’s just a number. Of course any number isn’t too high, right? It is when that number actually impacts your life, significantly.
I don’t plan on going east. I love California. The only reason I may end up on the east coast is for Grad School, but I would return to California right after. I don’t like the east coast, and I’d prefer to go to Grad school at Berkeley which has an excellent Nuclear Engineering Graduate Program.</p>
<p>So here is what I’m going to do:
Talk to my parents, and show them what I’ve calculated, and discuss how this will impact my future. This may give me a more accurate depiction of what they can/ are willing to contribute, now that I’m showing them how seriously I’m taking this.
I’m going to contact the Fin Aid at Mudd. Explain to them my perspective of debt coming out of college (there average indebtness is around 17k according to College Board. So why am I suppose to graduate with 83k of debt?? They even told me in their last visit they try to keep their students out of debt, and the higher end of debt a graduating student had to carry this past year was around $30k. I could deal with that, but not 83k.)
After I do these two things, I will make my decision. If I can’t find a way to get my costs for Mudd under $40k of debt, I’m not going. I might transfer my Junior year, which would currently equate to about $38k (including interest) of debt, and with scholarships, I might not even need to take out that much. Or, if UCI works out fine for me, I’ll probably just stay there for my last two years, and then transfer to Berkeley for Graduate School.</p>
<p>My mom’s a doctor with her own business- which is currently not doing well so she’s taking money out of her savings to pay her business, which obviously isn’t shown on FAFSA. She is telling me to take big loans out,</p>
<p>There’s an easy answer to your mom…“Mom, if paying back such a debt won’t be a problem, then certainly you won’t have ANY problem paying it back with a Plus loan.” If she doesn’t agree…then you have your answer…it isn’t easy to pay back!</p>
<p>I have strong feeling about this issue. As a mother with 2 children, one a 21 yr old college junior and the other a 16y/o high school sophomore, I find the craziness about the elite schools just that, crazy. Is there more value in attending them? Perhaps. Is the value worth an additional $30,000 or so a year for a total of approximately $120,000? Not IMO. With both of our kids, we have a set amount of money to contribute and we tell them that after that the debt incurred is their debt, not ours. Our free spending son is now at a state school after doing the math and getting an idea of what he would be paying monthly for some other choices. If you get a hefty aid package that dramatically lessens the cost, by all means, go for it. We encourage them to think more about their graduate degrees in terms of how it will affect their job prospects. I know several 20 somethings with debt payments that equal a small mortgage payment and no professional job prospects. They are looking at grad school to add to their already ridiculously high debt load. I will say however that I have a 50 y/o sister in law that seems to never have gotten over not going to her fist choice school (Boston College) because of finances. So, I guess for her, it may have been worth it to live a life of high debt but statistically most people are happy with their lower cost choice.</p>
<p>This certainly has been an interesting thread. It’s so nice to hear people say that the middle class is the group most unable to afford private schools. I think that but when I have mentioned it on other threads I have gotten into a lot of trouble.</p>
<p>I defer to the people who have experience with student loans and I know I can be a bit impractical with things like this. If the OP thinks that Harvey Mudd is the school for her and there is a way to make that work then I think it is worth exploring. Not at all costs, but I think the idea of $40,000 in debt might be worth considering. I never thought the OP was concerned about prestige, I thought she was more following her intuition on what the right school is for her. I also think there might be resources in the family that they can tap into if they are really on board with Harvey Mudd.</p>
<p>Once again, I hear what people are saying about a lot of debt. I wish the OP good luck with her decision.</p>
<p>Icebat- I got into Boston College like your sister. I’d love to go there but understand I can’t. I don’t think i would spend 22 years fretting it! People in my school, when they first find out I’m going to URI, ask you’re turning down BC for Rhode Island? *with a condescending tone. Their parents are paying for their colleges though.</p>
<p>As a parent i think you owe your children the “best” education you can afford…And if that means some sacrifices along the way to make it work, so be it…Can we pay put of pocket the cost of 50K+?? no…Will we try and be sure it is paid for without taking on any debt? At all costs…</p>
<p>We, as parents, should never let our children assume 100k worth of debt for college,though some debt won’t kill them,if necessary…</p>
<p>I’m surprised by the unity of the responses in this thread. Almost all the parents seem to lean toward the debt-free public and many of the students are supporting the costly top-tier privates. From a financial perspective, the debt-free public is a better option. In a broader sense, part of a top-tier school’s “value” comes from its ability to open doors (especially in jobs and grad school placement) that would otherwise remain closed. Do any parents think those other factors justify spending $150,000 to $200,000? Does it depend on the field in which one hopes to work? </p>
<p>(P.S. I’m just playing devil’s advocate here - I was in the same position as OP and ultimately chose a top50 public over a top10 private).</p>
<p>^^^^^^^^^</p>
<p>I believe it opens doors, and opportunities that otherwise may not happen…Is this the reason we are choosing a private school with a large tuition costs, vs other school at 1/2 the price(merit included),No!!! </p>
<p>As i said above, pay for the best education you can afford(even if it hurts,lol)…If you can only afford a state school, that’s what you need to do…But i am tired of parents who have the resources,complain about footing the bill…With the plethora of students attending college,a dumbing-down of a college degree has occurred…I’d love to see the track record of those “online” colleges,ie,Devry/Phoenix etc…I know many,many people who attended college because they “thought” they needed to, spent 50k(when schools only cost 10k± per year), and came out with a degree and struggle to find a job that pays any decent $$$$…</p>
<p>*Almost all the parents seem to lean toward the debt-free public and many of the students are supporting the costly top-tier privates. From a financial perspective, the debt-free public is a better option. In a broader sense, part of a top-tier school’s “value” comes from its ability to open doors (especially in jobs and grad school placement) that would otherwise remain closed. Do any parents think those other factors justify spending $150,000 to $200,000? Does it depend on the field in which one hopes to work?
*</p>
<p>I think many parents are leery of having kids take on big debt (small debt is ok) because as parents we know that paying out the equivalent of 2-4 extra car payments each month is not possible for young adults in their first jobs. It’s not possible for most people at any age, because soon people move into marriage, buying homes, and having kids…no money left… LOL</p>