<p>A while back, jmmom posted the following regarding admissions "Supply and Demand": "Stanford, academically the equal of the Ivies, has few all-state musicians in its applicant pool. Therefore, it takes a lot less to stand out in its pool as a musician --or for that matter, as an actor--than it does at an Ivy. The kind of musical skill that wouldn't make you one of the top 200 musicians applying to Yale or Harvard in a given year might put you in the top dozen at Stanford--and get you in."</p>
<p>At what other top colleges and universities do you suppose this may also be true?</p>
<p>Williams is definitely seeking talented musicians as well as kids involved in other areas of the arts. </p>
<p>For the class of 2009 out of about 1000 admitted, 230 were involved in the arts: 130 musicians, 19 dancers, 29 actors, 33 writers, 19 artists. They have just completed a $40 million performing arts center and definitely need performers. </p>
<p>This focus is amplified by the following quote from the director of admissions discussing the need to tap the waitlist: When we accept from the wait list we build areas of need, Nesbitt said. We will probably add a couple of top-ranked musicians, students interested in research science and people with a strong theater background.</p>
<p>Anecdotally, my son has several friends who are accomplished musicians both classical and jazz. Theyre not music majors but are actively involved in music as an EC. According to them Williams gets high marks for encouraging participationg and offering opportunities for performance.</p>
<p>Williams music department is also highly regarded. Not my area of expertise, but other parents and students give it high marks.</p>
<p>You are nibbling at one of my theories of college admissions: the reverse commute.</p>
<p>If all the traffic is headed to New England, drive the other direction and you'll make more progress.</p>
<p>Likewise, if 90% of the applicants at a given school want to be Econ majors and become investment bankers, your odds are probably better if you want to be a chemistry major.</p>
<p>I would recommend taking at look at the distribution of majors at any school under consideration. If the kid's interests and transcript support it, targeting a less frequently travelled department can make a lot of sense. Sometimes, that includes going to a school where the desired department is NOT their specialty.</p>
<p>BTW, this also makes sense from an educational standpoint. Often you get more a more personalized educational experience from a smaller department.</p>
<p>Just as a side-note on music: With Stanford's ethnic composition, I find it hard to believe they have a shortage of classical musicians applying.</p>
<p>Yes, thinking logically but with no insider knowledge, I would think an artistic kid (music, theatre, studio art) might get a bump at schools that are very techy, science-and-math oriented schools. Like CMU, RPI, JHU, etc?</p>
<p>Interesteddad - Under our theory, a major talent is good for getting you into schools that can't do much to develop the talent. In the same vein, an outstanding academic background will get you great merit aid to schools that don't have much academic value to add. Sort of the Murphy's Laws of college admissions, huh?</p>
<p>Don't believe everything you read on the website. Visit the teachers who will teach you. Talk to them. Some teach at schools in the neighborhood and not just at one place. They will let you know what the college can do for you as far as increasing your skills or not. At one school with a more than terrific reputation generally, the teacher told my son that the students don't make their own reeds. It got crossed off his list that evening. Again, visit and discover.</p>
<p>However, I don't subscribe to that theory. I think that any of a hundred or more schools can rise to meet the needs of a truly engaged student -- some better than others. I mean, let's face it. I doubt that Yo Yo Ma took the standard "I played cello pretty well in high school" music track at Harvard. There are gifted students at most really good undergrad schools who have a program of study custom tailored to their interests. </p>
<p>For example, of the 359 graduating seniors at my daughter's school, there were 40 "special majors" -- custom majors for a handful of students or, in many cases, one student.</p>
<p>The overwhelming majority of students are not going to run out of challenges at any of these colleges.</p>
<p>SBmom, CRU and JHU both have great music programs. But, I think you are on a correct line of thinking. MIT. Did anyone know they have a good musical composition program? I didn't. My son's genius composition friend is going there this fall.</p>
<p>There is current research being done to connect & integrate the arts and the sciences. For instance, schools with biology programs are doing research in conjunction with their conservatory students to discover the biological implications (healthwise) of music.</p>
<p>Gadad - sometimes a student needs a hook without so much of a need to develop the talent that provides the hook. My daughter is a dancer who attends an arts high school, and has had dance training since she was 4. But my daughter doesn't want to study dance at college - if she wanted to pursue a career dance, she'd join a company. She wants to study "brainy stuff" instead. </p>
<p>But she does want to dance for fun. She loves to choreograph and perform -- the "let's put on a show" part of dance will never leave her. So if it will help her with college admissions to find a college that could use some trained and enthusiastic dancers to support their arts program -- but doesn't expect them to <em>major</em> in the subject ... that's great. </p>
<p>So yeah, we are looking for colleges with growing, but crappy, dance and theater programs. The dance scene needs to be bad enough that my daughter will seem like a star to them, so she can be sure of getting featured roles in performances, without having to spend an inordinate amount of time practicing. The trick is to find the college that wants more dancers... but doesn't yet have the resources to attract the really good ones. </p>
<p>That way, my daughter will have what she wants -- a stage where she can dance for fun, and classrooms where she can learn all the stuff she wants to go to college for. </p>
<p>Lest this post be misunderstood -- my daughter is a very talented, very good dancer. I believe she would be good enough to dance in the corps of a major ballet company, if that is what she wanted to do. But dance is very competitive, and "very good" isn't good enough to get to the top -- for that you have to be awesome and amazing. </p>
<p>The "hook" part isn't always about what the college can offer the student with talent - sometimes it is what the student can offer the college. A kid like my daughter, with a good helping of talent and years of training, could help a college with a fledgling dance or theatre program get better. </p>
<p>So - momrath - thanks for your wonderful post about Williams. Any other suggestions?</p>
<p>What a terrific post. I wish more people would really spell out what they are looking for. So many just say, "I'm interested in dance" without being at all specific and then the suggestions come rolling in for all these big-time dance programs where your daughter wouldn't have a prayer without a major, major time commitment. It would be like some poor kid saying he's interested in playing walk-on football and having people say, University of Miami and USC have great programs. Yeah, great programs for NFL pro prospects...</p>
<p>By and large, most of the LACs are going to provide what your daughter is looking for. Student-run productions where basically anyone interested can find a role. In many cases, you get a half-course credit for performing in an ensemble, without being a dance major.</p>
<p>Here's a link to Swarthmore's dance program:</p>
<p>In addition to western dance performances (ballet, flamenco, etc.), they also have regular ensembles for Balinese Gamelin dancers, Ghana drumming and dancing, etc. The performances seem to be well attended by the students.</p>
<p>I think you will find similar programs at most LACs with the larger schools staging larger, more elaborate performances, etc.</p>
<p>Only one problem. My daughter is kind of SAT-challenged. If we can get her to break 2000 on the new SAT we will be lucky (read break 1300 by the old standard). GPA and academics are very strong in general, but weak on math & science. (Good grades, but not enough courses).</p>
<p>So you have to go a few steps down to get to "reach" for my daughter... and even farther to get to "match". Hence the search for colleges with wannabe dance programs -- we want the kind of places that most serious dance students would shun. There just has to be enough there that so that the college ad com would think a dancer was a good thing. Maybe a recent expenditure to build a new on-campus arts center that is being under-utilized..... (?)</p>
<p>Columbia is also putting a heavy emphasis into the arts, primarily in music. Both their jazz and classical programs are really starting to get good and the players I have met who go there are outstanding. Definately worth a look.</p>
<p>My son is a horn player. Although his teacher has encouraged him to look at conservatories, he is planning on studying math and science, not horn performance. But, he has put a lot of time into his playing, and loves to play. So, he too, is looking for a school where, as a non-music major, he can still have significant music opportunities. If his willingness to play his horn would be an asset to a particular school, that would be good information to have. I thought the football analogy was very good.</p>
<p>Someone has finally put into words what my daughter is looking for! She is a talented flutist, All-region every year, but not yet All-state. She wants to keep playing in college, but not as a music major, maybe as a minor. She wants to major in Elem Ed. She does not want the high pressure competiveness common in a conservatory environment. She would really prefer a small LAC, anywhere but the western US, with a good music program, that might be interested enough in her to offer a scholarship of some sort. In her words, she would "rather be third chair in a decent orchestra than first chair in a really bad one" Her stats would make many schools a reach: 1310 on the old SAT, a 3.65 weighted GPA, with all honors and AP courses. Based on all this, we ruled out places like Oberlin, Rice, and Indiana. We visited a few LACs, and crossed one off our list when someone in the music department was overly impressed that she could play college audition pieces. Her thought was-what in the world is everyone else playing here? That's when we realized that finding a good fit would be harder than we thought. The music department has to be big enough and good enough to attract talented musicians of similar caliber, but not so good and big that she has to fight for a performance spot behind all the music majors. It takes lots of e-mails and phone calls I guess, to get this info. If anyone has any suggestions, they would be greatly appreciated. Its nice to know we're not alone out there!</p>
<p>With the exception of maybe a few schools with a specific reputation in dance, most of the LACs would fall into the general category your daughter is looking for in terms of performing options. Because of their size, LACs are predominantly "walk-on" extracurricular schools. Doesn't mean that there won't be terrific dancers or musicians. But, there are a lot of kids who reach the same point your daughter has -- not to pursue it professionally.</p>
<p>Starting point would be to identify target schools academically. Then, find the comparable "dance" websites and start following the links. Its a perfect opportunity for you daughter to e-mail dance department professors this summer and just plain ask what the dance program is like. That's the first step in becoming a "recruited" anything. </p>
<p>I don't see any reason to categorically deny thinking about a dance major in the college app process. In fact, that would be rather counter-productive if the app is going to pitch dance. Kids do change their minds about their majors, so colleges don't hold you to the potential majors listed on the app, if you get my drift.</p>
<p>What part of the country are you looking for,calmom? There are many good midwest LAC's that seem to match your child's desires and test/class selection profile. I went to one, Wittenberg U, in Ohio. Others in Ohio are Wooster, Ohio Northern, Otterbein, Ohio Wesleyan. There are similar schools in Michigan. Most have strong music programs with room for non-major musicians. I was a chem major (one of approx 10 in a very one-on-one intensive faculty/student contact department which prepared me well for my career) who sang in 2 choirs and played clarinet throughout my college career.</p>