Torturing mother as an extra-curricular activity

Parents Forum
101

<p>blossom, You are painting a picture with strictly black and white--- You either parent by backing off entirely and let the chips fall where they will, or you are an overbearing, disfunctional parent whose kids are going to end up in counseling.</p>

<p>What I'm advising, and what most people are advising, is to sit down and talk to son, explain the process, what needs to be done and when. Explain that mom's role is to help. Some posters like cgm have come up with specific useful steps that she took when her kids were going through the process. Other's the same- whether it's written reminders, spreadsheets, whatever. What is the big deal here?</p>

<p>My kids could care less if I go onto their accounts for college. In fact, I have to logon periodically to put $ into their accounts. I'm not looking up their email, going onto their myspace, whatever. That's a different animal. But having a logon so that a parent can go into the college board or college website and look something up, or pay a bill? That's hardly the same thing as invading privacy.</p>

<p>There's common sense and then there's needless rigidity. Not letting your parent onto a college board or college account website is needless rigidity in my opionion. I'm sure my kids would agree- there's nothing there a parent isn't going to find out anyway.</p>

102

<p>Double, the point isn't whether or not the parent finds out the scores eventually.... the point is that the kid in question is not 6 years old where a parent has a legitimate need to ensure the kids safety or well being. Is there a material difference (other than the parental need to control) between finding out a score by secretly logging on, vs. waiting for the kid to inform you when he's ready? That's the difference between parenting a child (do it now, do it my way, you have to get your shots) vs. parenting an almost adult (I respect your boundaries; tell me your scores when YOU are ready to talk about college, not now, because I'm insisting that I need to know so I can sign you up for another round of tests even if you're happy with the score because you do it my way or not at all buster). I'm sure the OP is a kind, loving, sane parent, but between post number 1 where you gotta wonder why the kid is torturing such a supportive mom, and now, where we know now there are issues-- I am wondering less about the torture.</p>

<p>Great that your kids have given you permission to log on. Don't you think there's a difference between your kid telling you "it's ok" to a kid assuming a modicum of privacy, especially since no bodily harm can result from waiting? It's not like delaying results from a biopsy, for god's sake, where waiting a week can have severe detrimental consequences.</p>

<p>At the end of the day-- folks shouldn't post on an anonymous internet chat room if all they're looking for is affirmation that they're right and the other guy (or their kid) is wrong. Get a dog for that. Out here in cyberspace people may have a different take once the facts are in evidence, and I think that having Husband who is a cybersleuth figure out a way to secretly get a kids scores is WAY over the line in the parental respect department. It cuts both ways.... respect your kids boundaries and they'll do the same for you.</p>

103

<p>I am with Blossom on this one. What do you do with the information you have when you already have a kid who thinks you don't trust him? Do you hope he reveals all before you can start in with the 'hmmm should you retake the SAT II in math' discussion? If he had wanted them to know now, he would have told them now. </p>

<p>Look, many of us have been at this point. Every kid and situation is different. It just seems to me that when you have a kid who seems oppositional and to take pleasure in your squirming-- you have to be very measured if you wish to preserve a relationship through the process. This boy is capable of undermining even a clever and well meaning parent should he wish to become oppositional enough. </p>

<p>There is a difference between indifferent and confrontational. There is a difference between 'easy going' and manipulative. This boy needs space and choices and if in that space a deadline gets missed, it likely will not be the end of the world. </p>

<p>You can push the easy going kid, cajole and get them through (though you still may end up with a kid who 3 years later doesn't get things in on time!)...But if your kid is truly pushing back I just think you have to control your own need to control.</p>

104

<p>I overlooked the SAT II test incident as just one battle in a war. I was looking at the big picture, which (and momoschi, correct me if I'm wrong) is that son is unwilling to start the process, which is a long and complicated process, of researching, applying, and following up to colleges. Which in turn makes mom crazy, she starts nagging and looking over the shoulder (there's nothing more frustrating than trying to "herd a cat") and the dynamic between mother and son gets more and more confrontational. Resulting in son's intentional balking in order to get some kind of pleasure out of irritating mom.</p>

<p>I like to compare the college application cycle to a big huge term paper. There's a LOT of research involved before the writing even begins, and a lot of steps. Ideally , the student will attack the term task willingly, albeit in his own way, and eventually get it done in a satisfactory manner. In this case, a parent has no need to look over the shoulder, nag, or prod. There are cases, however, where students aren't motivated to do the work. They'd rather play, and delude themselves into believing that someday it will get done, that they can spend an hour or so on the internet, get their sources, and write the paper in another hour or two. That type of thinking is wrong, and that student needs to be reprogrammed to have a more sensible approach, because he is just not going to get a satisfactory result if he doesn't put a certain amount of time into it.</p>

<p>My son willingly spent a lot of time on the internet, researching schools, taking career interest surveys, researching careers, etc. over the summer preceding his senior year. I didn't have to nag him to do that, so I didn't. But if he had taken the attitude of, "I don't want to do it, I don't want you to help me or do it for me, I don't want you bugging me about it, I just don't want to face it," you bet I would have stepped in and said, "Mr. we need to have a talk."</p>

<p>Three questions I would ask momo's son:
1. Do you want to go to college next year?
2. If you could dream, where do you see yourself in 5 years, 10 years?
3. If the answer to #1 is yes, do you know what direction you want to take with regards to studies, type of college, size, location, etc?</p>

<p>The point is, there is a difference between a young man who wants to do a task independently (that's a noble attitude, and I'd respect that), and a young man who is just being irresponsible and immature and doesn't want to do anything out of laziness.</p>

<p>Let's assume momo's son is the second case. There are people out there who would recommend letting him go his own way, and next fall he'll be left at home scratching his head when all his friends go off to school. That will teach him! That is a viable solution, that may work for some. It wouldn't work for our family, though, and it didn't work for my friend, who is absolutely miserable right now and wishes she had given her son more of a kick in the pants a year ago.</p>

<p>Sorry about the long post!</p>

105

<p>doubleplay: I am of your opinion. BTW my D was completely self-motivated and goes to school in Manhattan and decided to stay the summer to work. Very independent. I did nothing for her college process. S was not. Never was. When he was a baby he would drop the bottle on the floor (after weaning at his discretion -- one super independent act) if I expected him to hold it. Sometimes I really worried that he had a neurological defect. I don't bottle feed him any more. LOL. So yes, I do rescue him more than Blossom would. On the other hand, he had a higher GPA, higher SAT scores than his sister. So which is the more successful kid? Both of them!</p>

<p>Blossom: I have no quarrel at all with your approach if it words for you and your child. Each family is different.</p>

<p>I think the incident with the SAT score was about anxiety which is hard to live through. I've never been in the position of OP, but I have done things at times in many situations that my anxiety has prompted me to do and weren't the best responses so I won't judge. Instead, I would say to momoschki: you really don't need to be so anxious. It sounds like your son is more than qualified for what you want for him and what I presume he wants for himself.</p>

106

<p>Hmmm....thing is...most Boomer Parents have stepped over the line of Parental Correctness at one time or another. Maybe we haven't hacked but I am sure we've made mistakes.</p>

<p>Do our errors, often published with wry regret, permit the Judgement Police to give us the cyber bash along with a free assessment of our relationship with our children? </p>

<p>Or is harsh cyber judgement, hurled at families none of us know (at all), a 'crime' as big as the original? Honestly, I distrust posters who hoist themselves up on the Perfect Pedestal as much as I pity posters who lobby cyber readers for affirmation.</p>

<p>However, in the world of the self-starting individual, the entrepreneur, there is value in observing and encouraging the non-self-starter to seek out work and satisfaction within highly organized structures. anitaw's son, for example, might think about joining a big organization--where he will be trained, prompted and motivated as a matter of course.</p>

<p>If it's any consolation, tortured, I emailed a dozen great interview suggestions to my son who is travelling and researching his senior thesis. His email response?</p>

<p>"The last time I looked, my course was titled "Independent Thesis for Distinction".</p>

<p>Exactly. </p>

<p>My bad and my apology.</p>

107

<p>cheers, It does seem like there is a lot more judgementalism in cyberspace than you'd ever see in face-to-face real life.
(I hope you weren't talking about me :o)
Not on this board, there are so many threads running, even as we "speak" where people want to criticize parents and kids for all kinds of, in my book, trivial behavior (in the broad scheme of things). Selling door to door, putting sports stickers on the car, taking communion when you haven't been shriven, the list goes on and on.
Is this some kind of summer virus going around?</p>

108

<p>Most posters here seem to view the "hands off" approach and the "hovering" approach as opposite ends of the spectrum. In my view, they are almost exactly the same thing!</p>

<p>They are the same because neither puts the student in a working relationship with the parent. (One says "you're separate from me" the other says "you take orders from me".) So neither develops an extended family unit of adults working toward common goals. They are both very short-term approaches. </p>

<p>Doupleplay's posts seem to point toward a longer-term view of the growing relationship. Sit down, define some common goals. Define responsibilities in working toward these goals. Does everyone have the skills they need to carry out the tasks they've agreed upon? Maybe some skill development, or outside support (college counselor?) is in order? Maybe the parent doesn't have the resources to carry out their traditional financial end of the bargain - need to look for scholarships!</p>

<p>This is likely to develop the relationship skills needed in adult-adult collaboration, and seems more respectful than the "hands-off" approach. Adopting the hands-off approach after confrontation says "we have failed to collaborate, go it alone."</p>

109

<p>Momoschki,
Last summer the AP test results came while my D was away on a summer internship. She came home, saw the unopened envelopes, and left the room. The unopened envelopes remained on the kitchen counter for the balance of the summer. One day, she opened them. I was surprised to see two 4s and a 5, since I, too, thought she wasn't dealing with it because she had not done well. Now I think it was just fear/denial. This year will be harder. She had six AP classes, including AP Studio Art. Her art work is very personal and important to her, and I know she wants/is expecting a 5. She is not interested in the other scores--senioritis had taken its toll by May. I am interested to see how she approaches the envelopes this year.</p>

<p>I would recommend you start now reading books like The Launching Years (by Kastner and Wyatt) and Letting Go (by Coburn and Treeger). I started reading such books last month when my D's school recommended them to senior parents. The recommendation should have been made a year earlier since the "launching" and "letting go" must start before senior year.</p>

<p>Good luck. I cannot believe I am saying this after the year we have had, but kids are resilient and do end up where they belong. (I am still taking the second part of the sentence on faith since my D hasn't yet started college, but given her current attitude (i.e., "I can't imaging being happier about any school than I am about Michigan"), I am confident the experience wil be a positive one.</p>

<p>Good luck to parents of rising seniors. It is a challenging year.</p>

110

<p>Momoschki,
A word of advice based on some stressful experiences. Make sure that your son knows how to send the applications online AND retain a copy (by printing or saving to the harddrive) of the confirmation he receives. My D, who submitted every application at the last minute (literally, even taking advantage of the West coast advantage) did not properly save the confirmations. She thought she was saving them, but she only saved a link to a page that could not be saved that way. Fortunately, the schools that did not receive the full application (i.e., they got the common app but not the supplement or vice versa) were very accommodating but I would have much preferred to have avoided the stress and the resulting fights with my D. Also, stress with your S the importance of checking his email at the address he gives to the colleges. If my D had been checking her email, we would have learned of the submission problems much sooner.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

111

<p>I second printing the confirmation. Younger son did so with all his, learning from older son, who was more lackidaisical about it (although no tragedies resulted). </p>

<p>One of the schools that younger applied to sent him a letter saying they never got the second part of his app. He was applying for a scholarship, and they couldn't evaluate him until he did. He had the confirmation. He called and the lady on the phone told him they DID have it.</p>

<p>Two weeks passed and another letter appeared in our mail, saying they didn't have part 2 of his app. This time I called and the lady on the phone told me not to worry, he was on the list of people they were evaluating for the scholarship so it must be a glitch.</p>

<p>A month went by, and all the applicants for the scholarship were notified, one way or another. Except my son. Once again, I called and this time I was told he wasn't evaluated because he never sent in part 2 of his app :eek:</p>

<p>I told the lady I was looking at a confirmation for part 2 of his app and she kept saying, "Are you SURE it's not part 1???" I gave her the date and time and read it off to her, and finally she believed me. She told us to fax it (the confirmation) along with a copy of his part 2 (thank goodness he printed the whole thing out!!!). I asked her about the lost opportunity for the scholarship throughout all this, and she said they would, in his case, go back and reevaluate him for it.</p>

<p>The long and short of it, is a week later, he got a letter in the mail saying "sorry, but we can't give you the scholarship." He did get accepted, though. It's unlikely that he would have gotten the scholarship anyway.</p>

<p>But it just goes to show---KEEP A COPY OF EVERYTHING!!!!</p>

112

<p>*Torturing mother as an extra-curricular activity</p>

<p>*
I better remind her to keep track of her hours</p>

113

<p>Regarding Oberlin admissions for music majors:</p>

<p>1) Conservatory students must audition for admission and that audition constitutes at least 80% of the overall decision. Conservatory students usually take one or more classes per semester in the College, so there is a bit more consideration given to academic ability than at a stand-alone conservatory where the audition would count for nearly 100% of the decision.</p>

<p>2) College students intending to major in music do not audition for admission but they face an audition by the end of second year in order to be able to fulfill the music BA requirements. Those who wish to pursue a concentration in Performance, Composition or TIMARA (Technology in Music and Related Arts) are basically competing for places in faculty studios with Conservatory applicants and are held to the same high standards. Those who wish to pursue a concentration in Music History/Theory have to audition for secondary private study on voice or an insturment. These auditions are a good bit less demanding, but the outcome is still not a foregone conclusion. See <a href="http://catalog.oberlin.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=10&poid=980%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://catalog.oberlin.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=10&poid=980&lt;/a> for details.</p>

114

<p>That said, there is a great deal of music making going on at Oberlin, even among the non-Music majors. There are a lot of groups, formal and informal, that accept members from all walks of life. My daughter has been in an indie folk/rock band with another Con student and several College students who were not music majors, a Klezmer band that included some faculty members and townies and a contradance band that was pretty much a pickup group.</p>

115

<p>Cheers, much as I love your S's riposte, "independent thesis research" doesn't mean "without assistance/advice." It means that it isn't part of a structured class, but is a one-on-one experience. It also means that the student may end up sitting in the prof's office for hours while deciding which lead to follow, which argument to develop. It also means that said student will be emailing prof from the far corners of the earth asking for advice. It also means that said student may email large chunks of chapters asking for feedback within the next couple of hours, because, "dear prof, the deadline is 5pm and it's already 12, and I'm not sure whether my argument makes sense."
Remember all that for when S comes back from his research. :)</p>

116

<p>marite, I agree. I said earlier in a post on this thread,</p>

<p>"One of my mantra's when my kids were growing up was- people aren't ignorant because of their IQ's. They're ignorant because they don't ask questions, accept help, or listen to advice."</p>

117

<p>Let me weigh in one more time:</p>

<p>It seems I have set off quite the debate here. All kids are different and clearly one size will not fit all, but it is the notion of collaboration through this process that appeals to me the most and seems the most balanced. By no means do I want to solely comandeer the process, but at the same time, to say to S that he it completely on his own seems too extreme to me also.</p>

<p>I think he is a good deal more anxious about applying to schools and really thinking about what is beyond his senior year than he would like to let on. I also know that the more anxious he gets, the crankier he is and the more everything we do annoys him. Because he tends not to share much information with us about where he is in the process and what his thinking is, we ask. The more we ask, the more he feels nagged/hounded and withdraws further, leaving us deeper in the vacuum, wondering what's going on. It is a vicious cycle. BTW, I don't think that in general he is any more secretive/oppositional than most 17 year old boys and he is usually very responsible about our requests that he tell us where he is and when he is coming home. In the whole college arena though, he offers little. He could be in his room at night researching schools, or he could be spending endless hours on Utube checking out the latest Bulgarian music videos-- we simply have no way of knowing.</p>

<p>Unquestionably my husband had a severe lapse of judgment the other day when he retrieved S's SAT II scores without his permission or knowledge. When I asked him why he did this, he said, "I just wanted to know!" He's regretting it already. It is no excuse, but I think it speaks to the anxiety that we feel by not being kept in the loop (if there even IS a loop-- who knows??)</p>

<p>Anyway, it's going to be a long road ahead with lots of bumps and turns and we all do the best we can. I suppose it is inevitable that mistakes will be made, but the 3 of us have to live together through the next year and it would be great if it was as painless as it possible, given all the process is fraught with.</p>

118

<p>momoschi,
Your son is very normal. Your problem is very common. Your son sounds like a typical teen boy, talented, confused, wanting to break away (which is GOOD!!!!) but not necessarily knowing how do to it.</p>

<p>The hardest thing to do, as a parent, is deal with this purgatory-type phase. My younger was easy, my older more difficult (even tho he was the one who did all the research over the summer, he is also the most stubborn and secretive, and would be that way with stuff like grades and scores). </p>

<p>Don't sweat the score thing. Look at the advice, and come back for more if you want it (after this, you may be thinking, hmmmmm.....)</p>

119

<p>I think you will be amazed at how different your situation will be this time next year. The college app process is so draining! I'm so glad we're done for now. Just yesterday I asked S if he wanted to access his AP scores. His reply, "Sure, if you want." When I got off the phone and told him his scores, he replied, "Oh cool" without lifting his eyes from the book he was reading. What a difference a year makes!</p>

120

<p>I agree with the above posters. My S was completely awful for the first several months of his senior year...sullen, snarky, and unco-operative. Then he got his first acceptance.</p>

<p>Turns out that parents aren't the only ones who keep hearing about how tough it is to get in to college these days. He was really worried he wouldn't get accepted anywhere.</p>

<p>He had his HS graduation this past week, was lovely to our extended family and we couldn't be prouder. Hang in there...it gets better.</p>