<p>The dorm my daughter is in seems pretty social, but I am pretty sure that the transfers are spread out among the various dorms.</p>
<p>Peter, my daughter has also experienced social problems at an Ivy-affiliate (she is at Barnard). The issue is similar: she always had an easy time making friends, found it difficult to make close friends at her college, and also would agree with your statement that there are behaviors exhibited by students who are experiencing freedom for the first time that she does not want to be part of. I don't think that such behavior (drinking, frat parties, etc.) is dominant, but I think it was difficult for my daughter to find outgoing, fun-loving kids to share time with -- since she is not a quiet intellectual type either. </p>
<p>Fortunately, my daughter is very happy with the academics, so part of her adjustment has been to change her expectations. She is also fortunate to be attending college in a huge city with an ever-widening network of friends on other college campuses. So part of her adjustment has been to accept that her best friends may not be her dorm mates or fellow students. So she is not lonely. She would move off campus next year if it were an option -- but it is not. </p>
<p>I do think that your post brings up a certain problem: the aura of prestige surrounding Ivies may lead students to fail to explore ideas of "fit" adequately in advance, or may make it very difficult to confront the issue and contemplate transfer. I think that there are tremendous pressures to accept an Ivy spot when admitted, when perhaps a different college would better meet the student's needs. So I agree with your statement, "I think it is hard not to be seduced ...."</p>
<p>I know that you want to protect your daughter's privacy and not get into a debate over the merits of the school, but I think one problem is that the Ivies are not all the same. So I think it would benefit others to know which Ivy has been the problem, and whether you feel that the issues you describe would apply to all freshman dorms or whether it could be an issue of placement. </p>
<p>I also am not a fan of all-freshman dorms for the reasons you describe.</p>
<p>
Binx, I think you are facing a somewhat different issue than that faced in this thread -- where it is possible that Peter's daughter was (his words) "seduced" by the prestige of the school. So for his daughter, the issue might have been separating the "fit" question from the prestige issue; whereas the question you raise entails separating the "fit" question from the cost issue. </p>
<p>I do think that you are raising a legitimate concern -- just one that involves a somewhat different analysis. I think that there are two, sometimes conflicting principles: </p>
<ul>
<li><p>If one college is affordable, and the other is not, then the student has to opt for the one that she & her family can afford.</p></li>
<li><p>If one college is a better fit than the other, irrespective of cost or prestige, the student should opt for the better fit.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>Obviously, the key issue is "affordability": if the parents truly cannot afford the more expensive option, it doesn't matter how great it is -- they can't pay.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know that you want to protect your daughter's privacy and not get into a debate over the merits of the school, but I think one problem is that the Ivies are not all the same.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm pretty sure I know which Ivy it is because I was curious myself and clicked on the OP's name to see what he'd posted in the past. I'm pretty sure one could have exactly the same experience at Harvard, and plenty of other schools as well. I think it's partly that one expects too much from an Ivy, partly that one often feels obliged to go to the Ivy even if it's not the best fit (we're wrestling with this one in our house now), and partly the architecture and the social arrangements. (Segregation of freshmen and suites.)</p>
<p>Oh gosh. I have a D at an Ivy who is absolutely wildly blissfully happy.</p>
<p>And an S who is a junior. And all I can think of is, how do I help make sure his choice leads to happiness like my D although he will likely pick a different school.</p>
<p>Did any of you see this coming? Where the kid now needs to transfer?</p>
<p>Alumother -
As I know you well know, in the course of a kid growing up there is almost always going to be some kind of situation that you didn't see coming, as you put it. If it isn't transferring colleges due to unhappiness, it's some other unanticipated problem. The more I talk to my friends with kids, the more we realize that almost everyone has some kind of issue to deal with. It is very upsetting to us parents at the time, but it usually seems to work out for the best. </p>
<p>Sax said it very well in her post above ...... "Good grief...no one ever said it would be easy."</p>
<p>Your son sounds pretty easy going - just make sure that he likes the basketball team at the school he picks and he will be fine :)</p>
<p>I attended purple cow U and was quite satisfied with my academic/intellectual experience there. Mini wasn't. This does not mean that your son won't.</p>
<p>I'd also like to speak on the idea of transfers feeling like "outsiders." I'm sure it depends on the college, but for my D, transfering to Wes, it took about one day to feel like she'd found "her people." She made wonderful friends there, first, mostly transfers, but eventually other kids, too. Her only regret is not getting to spend four years there; if she could have started over as a first-year, she would have.</p>
<p>She NEVER felt like anything but an outsider at the college she started at. Like wjb said, kids don't transfer because things aren't perfect; they transfer because they can not stay where they are--D would not have made it through the summer knowing she was going back to the first school. It's an arduous process, best done only when there's no choice not to.</p>
<p>Calmom, you make some good points about these being somewhat different decisions. I especially like your two opposing principles. That is exactly where we are at. But the issue at hand - transferring due to lack of fit - is what compelled me to comment. It heightens my anxiety over making sure of at least an "adequate" fit, if not the best fit. </p>
<p>To Alumother - my oldest kid also had a blissfully happy situation at an IVY - same one MOWC's kid doesn't like. My kid graduated with a BA and is two years in the workforce now - definitely didn't go pre-professional. He found the academic environment stimulating. I do agree with MOWC that no one there "cared" about my kid - the counselors weren't great, and my kid didn't develop any close relationships with any faculty. I pushed him to do some grad school aps in case he couldn't find a job, and he had a lot of trouble finding teachers to write recs. He was not in any way a "star" at the school - one of many bright kids. But it was exactly what he was looking for - a chance to be normal, rather than always the brain. So he was, and is, blissfully happy with his experience there.</p>
<p>As a qualifier - I will say that I personally would NOT have been happy there, and have always been a bit mystified that my kid found it so thrilling. </p>
<p>It does amaze me that, when we make our kids make these kinds of "know thyself" decisions at age 17 or 18, that as many of them find their fit as often as they do!</p>
<p>This is a thread that maybe should be required reading. Turns out not everyone on CC is wildly happy, even at their so-called dream school. Who would have thunk it?</p>
<p>Of course it is perfectly OK if kids hit a little rock in the road. If they're unhappy - transfer. I certainly wouldn't encourage kids to go into a college thinking that, but if it happens, well, sometimes life requires adjustments. :)</p>
<p>Binx--your kid's description sounds a lot like my S's at another Ivy. I'm not wild about the lack of close advising and relationships, but S is fine with that. I'm the one saying, build up relationships--you'll need the recs, but that's not what he's looking for. Like your S, mine just likes being one of the regular kids, not the star, for a change. This actually was one of my D's reasons for transfering--too much emphasis on being the star, not feeling like anyone around her was as interested in the stuff as she was.</p>
<p>It seems to me it also should be required reading for the colleges, esp. the Ivies. I don't know about how all the Ivies operate; at least one of them has made & is making serious efforts at keeping students happy, with their residential college system (not just in name but in activities), in the offering of substance-free dorms, etc. (I know of one student there who is quite miserable & disillusioned with "all the drinking")</p>
<p>I don't understand why all campuses don't offer sub-free dorms. In fact, quite honestly I don't know why all dorms everywhere are not sub-free. (I didn't know that illegal drugs and underage drinking were "rights.") The social thing won't just "happen" within a sub-free, but at the very least there will be that one aspect in commmon, and students can coherently proceed from there.</p>
<p>Careful matching of roommate preferences helps. The enlightened U's do this. Part of retention & keeping your undergrads happy, & frankly it makes good business sense: the happier your alums are, the more willing to contribute they'll be. </p>
<p>I so hate the policies of so many colleges: freshmen get the dregs -- no choices, no interest-housing, nada. (When that's when the transition is most important.)</p>
<p>I have to say, at my S's school, freshman get royally good dorms. The neat thing is, of the two main dorms for frosh, one is all suites and has a party rep, the other is all singles, but tends to be very friendly in a low key way. Students can choose, and generally get their choice. So the serious partiers go to one dorm, and the more laid-back folk like my S choose the other. Though all singles, his floor was extremely open door and social, and he had a fantastic frosh year experience.</p>
<p>Don't want to hijack the thread, but</p>
<p>MOWC, sorry to hear Wild Child is having some adjustment problems, I remember how thrilled he was with the acceptance last year, but youand he couldn't forsee the injury and reassortment of priorities, best of luck to him. I'm sure you know plenty of people to get SEC info from, but I just returned from a visit to the purple and gold, and was impressed with some things, disconcerted with others, pm me if you want any info.</p>
<p>Binx and Peter, this is another one of those "you just have to know your child" things. They may make the wrong decision, circumstances may change, they may be seduced by prestige. It is also possible that they truly aren't bothered by things that would be negatives for you, or for a sibling. They may just have to take a chance (but at $45000, it's a heck of a chance!) - these are all great schools, I think they will learn something, even if the experience isn't what they hoped for. The knowing your child part is when it is next Nov and they start to talk transfer, knowing when the unhappiness is real and when it is just freshman jitters or growing pains from a kid who always had some tears with adjustment - I think Mini, or whoever said "when they get off their duff and start doing something about transferring" that is when it is serious.</p>
<p>I have an acquaintance with a very smart son at a "prestigious, but not Ivy, college" who is going through the same process. Bad roommate match, not finding a niche in the social scene outside the dorm and having a change in career plans. Doing fine academically. The complaints are very similar</p>
<p>I agree with Cangel completely. This is a pragmatic issue that can go many ways. Not school specific. </p>
<p>I have a solution to the problem of sadness after finding out you don't love your dream school: don't have a dream school to start with. Dream of yourself making the best of wherever you are. Given the current state of college admissions, I think parents are well advised to help their children get past the 'dream school' notion.</p>
<p>This seems to be a very neglected aspect of the College Search process, doesn't it? Perhaps some of us have S's or D's who do think of social fit almost before, or certainly simultaneously with, academic fit, but I can understand why it wouldn't be on everybody's front burner, and even why most students would assume that the two realms would not be far apart.</p>
<p>It's an area I think that GC's and esp. parents need to make part of the information angle on college admissions. Anyone who's even opened a newspaper in the last five years knows about competition & about the importance of applying to a range of schools. There's a lot of preparation, therefore, in that area. But little or no preparation in getting the student to be proactive, inquisitive, about all the aforementioned posts. No, it doesn't preclude dissatisfaction or disillusionment, & that in itself can't be the aim. The aim is to get the students to start being very assertive to the colleges when on tours, when corresponding, phoning, when reps come, etc: What are your living choices? What alternatives are there? For example, the whole sub-free movement was partly influenced by trends that the colleges saw in student preferences & requests. It was not parent-driven or college driven. If students started being persistent in questions about supervision, grievances, move-outs, matching/pairing procedures, interest-housing available to freshmen, etc., then the colleges would start responding pronto. You think they don't want a marketing edge regarding "what they offer"? You bet they do. But they take their cues directly from their market.</p>
<p>I don't think it hurts either, if parents get involved, but I'd prefer their inquiries to be on a different track. For a long time I've wondered about the obligation of a U which charges for housing (and requires freshmen to live on campus) to provide an atmosphere for the student that allows the paid-for academics to be completed without outside encumbrances not created by the student. This is a legal issue. There's an underlying contractual obligation of the institution to meet this. So far, things have worked out for my D, but I would be "talking legal" to the U in a New York Minute if they were failing to provide an atmosphere which allowed my child to sleep & study. (That's separate from the "social happiness" issue, but not unrelated.)</p>
<p>"I attended purple cow U and was quite satisfied with my academic/intellectual experience there. Mini wasn't. This does not mean that your son won't."</p>
<p>I was very satisfied with the academic experience, and learned heaps, and for that I remain forever grateful.</p>
<p>"I'd also like to speak on the idea of transfers feeling like "outsiders." I'm sure it depends on the college, but for my D, transfering to Wes, it took about one day to feel like she'd found "her people." She made wonderful friends there, first, mostly transfers, but eventually other kids, too. Her only regret is not getting to spend four years there; if she could have started over as a first-year, she would have. She NEVER felt like anything but an outsider at the college she started at."</p>
<p>Wow, sounds like you're talking about me. I had the exact same experience before and after my transfer. My first year after transferring, I called my parents after Thanksgiving break to let them know I'd gotten back to campus in one piece, and my father said, "You sound like a fish that fell back in the water."</p>
<p>I don't think it is particularly relevant to name the school. This is a personal experiece. The school has not been the right fit for my d. I think it has been incredibly interesting and thought provoking to read each person's different and insightful point of view.</p>
<p>It might not be relevant, but the school name allows folks to compare notes. So it might not be relevant to you, but it might be others. (Hey, the entire College Confidential website is comparing notes about various named colleges; take away the names, and there wouldn't be much of a reason for the site.)</p>