<p>My daughter is not aiming to be a CEO either. But, aside from that, what do the three numbers next to the school name mean?</p>
<p>First--ug enrollment, second--total Who's Who listings, third-index of total WW listings divided by enrollment.</p>
<p>Recently my dog got a Who's Who listing invitation...</p>
<p>I would point out that a Who's Who analysis will be an extremely lagging indicator. Specifically, it will look at a period of time when many of these schools banned women. The world is a very different place, today.</p>
<p>"Mini, I am still waiting for proof that COLLEGE drinking leads to AA. I think drinking in college was much like much like rioting--something you did and then moved on when you grew up."</p>
<p>There isn't any. There is proof that drinking (often plus genetics) leads to AA, and that youth drinking leads to AA, and that college students ages 18-22 do more binge drinking and heavy drinking than those out of school. Lots of nice articles in the May issue of the Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, May 2006, and JAMA May/June 2006. There is another one, that I have to run down, that I also think was a JAMA, a 10-year retrospective on fraternity drinkers. </p>
<p>Most college binge drinkers do NOT become alcoholics in the next 20 years. (I've said that before, but maybe this time you are listening.) Roughly half become heavy drinkers in college (bingeing 3-4 times in a two-week period, or nearly daily 2+ drinks). Heavy drinking IS associated with alcoholism. Roughly 60% of the college heavy drinkers either are alcoholics or will become so in the next 20 years.</p>
<p>Cut the data another way. Of the college binge drinkers, roughly a third (actually slightly more) will become abstainers or moderate drinkers after college. Roughly a third (slightly less) will become heavy, but not alcoholic drinkers. And roughly a third will become alcoholics, if they aren't so already.</p>
<p>Now, if we could only cross-reference the "Who's Who" for fame with "AA Who's Who" we'd be in business.</p>
<p>So how does that compare with light college drinkers or even non-drinkers? Do you have PROOF of that 60% figure for College Binge drinkers or is that an extrapolation of general drinking data? My sources say college binge drinking is unique to college and ends quickly after college with few ill effects.</p>
<p>"Do you have PROOF of that 60% figure for College Binge drinkers or is that an extrapolation of general drinking data?"</p>
<p>Yeah, actually proof. Multiple campuses. Large sample sizes. Confirming experimental data (i.e. how do you check for validity, i.e. lying....) Data beginning in 1976 (Monitoring the Future, University of Michgan).</p>
<p>"My sources say college binge drinking is unique to college and ends quickly after college with few ill effects."</p>
<p>My sources say (as I said) that two-thirds of college binge drinkers do NOT become alcoholics (and aren't alcoholics while they are there). Of this two-thirds, half (slightly more) become abstainers/moderate drinkers, half (slightly less) become (remain) heavy drinkers, but not alcoholics.</p>
<p>Let's not make this seem bigger than it is. In my state, the "current adult need for treatment, extended over time" for alcoholism is roughly 10% of the population, give or take (most won't get it - treatment, that is.) Now just do the quick cutdowns that I did among the college population (18-22 year olds), assuming a 40% bingeing rate, and you'll come up with 12%. The difference is statistically signficant, but we aren't talking hundreds of thousands of people dying annually 'cause they can't get a liver transplant. (well, I'll have to check that. :eek:) And certainly much lower than in France, or Denmark, or Sweden, or Germany, or the U.K.</p>
<p>"Most college binge drinkers do NOT become alcoholics in the next 20 years. (I've said that before, but maybe this time you are listening.) Roughly half become heavy drinkers in college (bingeing 3-4 times in a two-week period, or nearly daily 2+ drinks). Heavy drinking IS associated with alcoholism. Roughly 60% of the college heavy drinkers either are alcoholics or will become so in the next 20 years"</p>
<p>This is the quote that seemed to say 60% of college bingers become alcoholics. The immediate impacts of heavy college drinking are easily seen. I don't think there is a need to drag a dubious future probem into the mix.</p>
<p>Here's my point of ref. by the head of Wisconsin's program. </p>
<p>"This is the quote that seemed to say 60% of college bingers become alcoholics."</p>
<p>Okay, so let me repeat: Most college bingers do NOT become alcoholics. Half of them are heavy drinkers. And of those, roughly 60% are currently alcoholics, or will beome so. (So it amounts to roughly 30% of the bingers, give or take.)There is some data in the Pediatric Archives that found there is a highly percentage of alcohol dependence among youth (under 21) than among adults - but it is not tied to college drinking, and that youth (ages 12-20) account for 30% of all U.S. abusive and dependent drinkers (but that would include the bingers.)</p>
<p>The greatest predictor of future alcoholism has nothing to do with college at all, but age of first use. However, we don't know whether this is because earlier drinkers tend to come from alcoholic families and are more likely to carry the genes, or simply becoming habituated to drinking at an early age. However, we are talking here about 14-year-olds, not college students for the most part.</p>
<p>so besides the drinking arguements over whether binge drinking turns people into alcoholics...any other ideas?</p>
<p>4Kidsmom, Colgate is to me the most social of the social schools. It is a magnet for extraverts. At ~3000 it’s on the high end of the LAC scale, but isolation, severe weather, fraternity culture, and party/party are what Colgate is all about (plus strong academics). </p>
<p>So I’m wondering what attracted your daughter in the first place? This is not a criticism but an honest question: she thought she’d like Colgate and she doesn’t. Surely she knew going in that her college is full of active outgoing kids and that drinking would be a common part of the experience. You say she’s made friends, participates in events, but that she’s exhausted by the demands to socialize 24/7. Is it the balance that's off?</p>
<p>You posted this on the Colgate board just a few days ago:
[quote]
all in all, she loves it. she's made friends, loves her classes and was excited to be back at school.
[/quote]
I don't mean this as a "gotcha" but rather a "what gives"? Maybe you just caught her at a down moment. My guess is that she’s an outgoing, energetic person herself and that something else is bugging her (or you).</p>
<p>Nevertheless if she wants to shop around, there are lots of choices for a student with good grades. People have been throwing out suggestions like popcorn to the pigeons, but I think she needs to narrow in a bit on the top three qualities on her wishlist.</p>
<p>You list your location as Kansas and for sure, Toto, an upstate village isn’t Kansas. Does she just want to be closer to home? </p>
<p>Does she want urban? Does she want a smaller LAC (2000 or so)? Does she want medium? Does she want BIG, but maybe a residential or honors college within BigU? Does she want coed? Does she want a more temperate climate? </p>
<p>I think she needs to more clearly define what she WANTS, not just what she doesn’t want as there are plenty of schools out there that could fill the bill.</p>
<p>For example, WUSTL sounds good -- medium sized, urban, temperate climate, middle of the road kids, good academics, Midwest location.</p>
<p>Wow...there certainly is a lot going on here. I agree mother of two I was lucky my D found a non-drinking group at her school and is quite happy as it is academically a good match for her too. As for the kids having like interests like hers .... I just think that's part of evolving as a young adult - exposing yourself to others interests and sharing your own interests - makes for a more tolerant and interesting group! We don't want the whole world to be Vanilla do we? I understand those who have kids who are more comfortable fitting in with the mainstream as I have one of those too and I anxiously await 'mainstreams' adaptation to college!!</p>
<p>As far as colleges with 60% binge drinking rate having less engaged students....I don't know that I can agree with that. Amherst and Middlebury have large groups of drinking students "party hard" type schools....and they do not have a reputation for less engaged students! Of note, my D says the out of control drinking really dropped off after freshmen year.</p>
<p>Momof4 .... how is your D finding second semester? Many of my friends who had students that wanted to transfer after first semester were very content at the end of Freshman year. Momrath also makes a lot of good points ....she really does need to define what is making her unhappy at her current school and what does she want in another school?</p>
<p>1psmom,
I don't want to sound like I am being picky or start an argument with you, but I think you sort of twisted what was meant in the earlier part of this thread when some of us were talking about our kids finding friends with similar interests. We were talking (perhaps using euphemisms) about our kids finding friends who have an interest in having fun without necessarily needing to get drunk to do so. </p>
<p>Of course my daughter and the others expose themselves to people with interests other than their own - different kinds of music, academic interests, cultural backgrounds, hobbies .... I could go on and on. I would say that the students at Swarthmore, Wesleyan, and some of the other schools mentioned tend to have eclectic interests and come from very varied backgrounds. In no way would they possibly be described as "Vanilla" or intolerant !!!!! In fact, my daughter is out of the "mainstream" at her school in many other ways, since her academic interests are in some of the smaller departments at her school. </p>
<p>I really don't think being around a bunch of people whose main idea of fun is to go out and get drunk necessarily makes one more tolerant and interesting. But maybe I am missing something.</p>
<p>I agree with the parents who pointed out that a student may not really like their school until well into their frosh year, but I think we all would agree that when a student tells us they are unhappy, in any situation, we need to listen up.</p>
<p>I don't think she sounds as unhappy as she says, momrath, but as caligali says, I'm listening. I think she sounds like she's made friends, but she hasn't found that group who want to hang at night and not just go party. I know she likes the academics. As to what she was looking for? A small liberal arts college that had a campus feel, nice kids, small classes with profs who wanted a good relationship with their students, jewish kids, a campus that felt like Cheers, where everyone knows your name. My assumption is that small isolated schools would bring in a lot for the kids to do and they just might. But finding the kids who want to do what you want is a lot harder than waving your flag and saying I'm here. The campus has all of those qualifications, but let's not forget, where you apply is not neccessarily where you get in- and what you think a campus is like on those visits and through reading about them is not always the experience you find.
She's a great kid- and as much as she likes to go out and fun with her friends, she wasn't out every night until the wee hours during winter break like others talked about here. She did that some, and she just hung out with her friends here some and she just hung out with us some.
Let's just say, at 17 looking for colleges, kids don't know themselves perfectly to always pick out a perfect fit for themselves.</p>
<p>4kidsmom, I'm certainly not trying to castigate your daughter for making an error of judgement. Or, possibly, choosing the best of several equally imperfect options.</p>
<p>I guess what I trying to say is whatever there is in her makeup that drew her to Colgate still exists and it might not be a good idea to swing too far in the other direction. All of the schools listed here are wonderful schools, but they also have distinctive characters so in avoiding the outgoing, extrovert culture she needs to be careful not to deny that aspect of her own personality.</p>
<p>LACs are tough on transfers as spaces are limited. The ones that are on an academic par with your daughter's current school seem to me to be more of the same, e.g. isolated and social like Hamilton, Kenyon or lean far left like Wesleyan, Oberlin. Amherst would be a good middle road but the acceptance rate is discouraging. </p>
<p>Maybe Macalester or Haverford?</p>
<p>"A small liberal arts college that had a campus feel, nice kids, small classes with profs who wanted a good relationship with their students, jewish kids, a campus that felt like Cheers, where everyone knows your name."</p>
<p>That sounds very much like Swarthmore! Maybe she should apply there and see what happens...</p>
<p>I think you already have a great list of suggestions.</p>
<p>thanks- I appreciate all of your help! Why does it seem that most of these schools are in the NE? ok, one in MN but other than that, it's all NE!</p>
<p>Well, its sort of history. Which area of the country was settled first? Many of these colleges were founded in the 1700s/early 1800s when the Western Frontier was, well, still a frontier. Its only natural that the majority of colleges are in the NE area because theres been more available time for them to be settled. UC is so large because of CA's insane population. But the midwest has a low population, and its somewhat declining in areas, so theres no need. One or two state unis are plenty, and they just don't have the money.</p>