<p>As someone who thinks that Berkeley is the best college town in the country, and would love to live there someday, I understand your pain. I too was deciding between an Ivy and Berkeley. Money ended up being the most important thing for me, so I choose the Ivy, but I’m very glad I did. Three of my best friends go to Berkeley, and I have to say that I’m not impressed with their experiences. None of them seem to know their professors, they find it very hard to get the classes they want, and they find it extremely hard to find good research positions. Now I’m sure CoC will offer you more resources (I would hope), but I still think that you’re better off at Princeton for undergrad. The resources available for undergrads at schools like Princeton are truly unbelievable. I know 4/5 of my Professors very, very well. I have never had to worry about whether or not I will be able to get into a class. And the research positions available are unending. My best friend is being taken to CERN by his professor as a research assistant. I love Berkeley, and it’s definitely on my list for graduate school. But don’t suffer through California’s looming budget cuts as an undergraduate. You won’t regret Princeton.</p>
<p>You could have seen this coming from a mile away. I’m not sure whether some of the responses has led you closer to or further away from a decision. The people who make this seem like such a clear-cut decision is not respecting the OP’s dilemma. The suggestion of potentially flunking and being miserable to the point of transferring is borderline insulting. The claim that one should go to Princeton for undergrad and Cal for grad school is particularly intriguing, because doesn’t that work both ways? I submit that the OP can name 10 specific things about Cal that s/he likes, and can maybe name two or three SPECIFIC things about Princeton that s/he likes. In reality, if s/he wanted a Princeton-esque experience at some point in his/her academic career, whatever that may entail, you can go to Cal for undergrad and then (insert any private school on East Coast) for graduate school. For all the respect Cal’s graduate schools garners, people sure don’t give enough respect for the selectivity of the programs. In short, what we have thus far is the standard fare chorus praising the triumph of private education (and yet nothing offered thus far has been Princeton-specific, only the mythology of Ivy League has prevailed) and of course, without fail, the tired criticisms of Cal and Public School U (and surprising omission of the merits from detractors). </p>
<p>I can only hope the OP makes a decision that s/he is most comfortable with, and not be unduly influenced by random web links like the following:</p>
<p>You’ve seen the beautiful exterior of buildings, now the gorgeous INTERIORS?
[OT</a> Poll: What’s Cal’s most aesthetic … - Bear Insider Forums - California Golden Bears](<a href=“http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=130365#post130365]OT”>http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=130365#post130365)</p>
<p>Great blog following freshmen students in the College of Natural Resources. Wonderful insight into the daily life and interests of Cal students.
[Fresh</a> Faces: Things to Do and See Archives](<a href=“http://nature.berkeley.edu/blogs/freshfaces/things_to_do_an/]Fresh”>http://nature.berkeley.edu/blogs/freshfaces/things_to_do_an/)</p>
<p>Some things you can look forward to if you choose to be a Cal student!
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/710957-these-few-my-favorite-things-about-cal-2.html#post1062510753[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/710957-these-few-my-favorite-things-about-cal-2.html#post1062510753</a></p>
<p>Go Bears!</p>
<p>Sakky, is the CoC as scary in terms of the risks thing as the COE? If so, then that’s a factor, else while Princeton probably is safer in some senses, I’d not worry so much about the distinction – Princeton has grade deflation too after all, it’s not a comparison with a hugely grade inflated school!</p>
<p>My advice depends largely on what your personal academic plans are, OP. Do you really see yourself taking advantage of the CoC? Are you excited to load your schedule with crazy, interesting chemistry stuff? If so, then you probably want to come to Berkeley. If you don’t care so much about chemistry, it doesn’t make sense to come here for the number 1 ranking. A number 1 department only counts if you’re super into its field and take advantage of its number 1-ness!!</p>
<p>“In short, what we have thus far is the standard fare chorus praising the triumph of private education (and yet nothing offered thus far has been Princeton-specific, only the mythology of Ivy League has prevailed) and of course, without fail, the tired criticisms of Cal and Public School U (and surprising omission of the merits from detractors).”</p>
<p>You make it sound like we’re merely using offhand stereotypes without backing. I tried to give specific examples of what I consider important aspects of an undergraduate education, and they are affected at both schools. I more then acknowledge that Berkeley is a fantastic school. I would absolutely love to be a Professor there someday. But I don’t think that my admiration of the school changes the fact that MY experience shows that Harvard/Princeton/Yale/Stanford/MIT have endowments that allow them to allocate resources and opportunities to their undergraduates that Berkeley simply can’t provide at this time. You seem to be the one without any backing to your claims that the Ivy league is vastly overrated and Berkeley has many more resources then people realize for the average undergraduate. I would be happy to hear examples otherwise!</p>
<p>Princeton. The internship oppourtunities, learning opportunities are going to be much much much much much better due to the smaller class sizes, prestige (which attracts better recruiters/quotas). Undergrad Chem is going to be the same so Cal’s better chem department doesn’t mean anything at all.</p>
<p>to white_rabbit, I think we can agree that at least in the context of this thread, we shouldn’t let the conversation deviate much further from the OP’s original intent</p>
<p>I wasn’t directing my comment at you, but your contribution does readily fit the mold I described. The fact remains that I do not believe your anecdotal evidence, although illuminating, is Princeton-specific. Rather, you use endowment and your experience at a comparable institution to extrapolate what Princeton may or may not afford in terms of undergraduate experience. </p>
<p>“You seem to be the one without any backing to your claims that the Ivy league is vastly overrated and Berkeley has many more resources then people realize for the average undergraduate.”</p>
<p>I never said any institution or any consortium of schools is overrated, let along “vastly” overrated. I do believe there are shortcomings with any university (which can range from the universal concern of all students, to anxieties that are student-specific), and I would only heed the OP to look beyond the rosy picture so dutifully subscribed to by ardent admirers of all-things-Ivy, and really make an educated decision to the pros and cons each school has to offer. Yes, there are cons to Princeton (the trajectory of this thread would lead you to believe, otherwise) but no, that’s not my prerogative to figure out. This is not a competition. If Princeton is a better fit for the OP, then congratulations, no animosity whatsoever. But if s/he is going only because popular opinion dictates, then s/he is potentially setting oneself up for disappointment by not attending the school s/he has visited, committed to, and already genuinely likes. </p>
<p>As far as Cal have more resources than others might realize, I never made any claim or inferred anything remotely similar to that. Although, because you insist…</p>
<p>Did you know the student government built, owns and operates a mountain lodge near Lake Tahoe, at discounted rates to students and alumni?
[Welcome</a> to ASUC Auxiliary](<a href=“http://asuc.berkeley.edu/asinside.aspx?uid=55]Welcome”>http://asuc.berkeley.edu/asinside.aspx?uid=55)</p>
<p>Did you know that the California Alumni Association owns and operates the Lair of the Golden Bear, a summer retreat for the family just outside Yosemite National Park?
[California</a> Alumni Association at UC Berkeley](<a href=“http://www.alumni.berkeley.edu/Alumni/Lair_of_the_Golden_Bear/About_the_Lair.asp]California”>http://www.alumni.berkeley.edu/Alumni/Lair_of_the_Golden_Bear/About_the_Lair.asp)</p>
<p>Go Bears!</p>
<p>newnonstop: Yes, I was referring to your housing post. It seemed to imply that you were leaning towards not coming to Berkeley, but its good to know that you were just keeping your options open.</p>
<p>I feel like the debate about education quality and opportunities at Berkeley and Princeton can go on forever, and each person has their own opinions, biases, and preferences based on their own background and experiences. Both Cal and Princeton are great schools so I don’t think academics should play as big a role in your decisions as your own personal preference. </p>
<p>Since you haven’t visited Princeton yet and don’t know if you will, I’ll just try and give you a brief idea from what I remember. It’s a very pastoral campus that leaves you with the impression you are visiting a small medieval town in a forest. The architecture is mostly Gothic, and your dorms look like little medieval castles and they are very old. The campus and the surrounding suburb are very quiet and there aren’t very many people, but if you ever miss the hustle and bustle of a big city or miss the sight of lots of people then you can hop on a train and visit New York or some other nearby city. If I had to pick one word to characterize Princeton, I would say that it is rather quaint. I hope this helps give you an idea of what the atmostphere at Princeton is like. If you have some time, watch some videos here: [YouTube</a> - princetonuniversity’s Channel](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/user/princetonuniversity]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/user/princetonuniversity).</p>
<p>And after that if you want to reevaluate Berekeley, you can watch some videos here: [YouTube</a> - ucberkeley’s Channel](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/ucberkeley]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/ucberkeley). Mull it over and decide where can you see yourself being happier.</p>
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<p>I’m sure those schools have funds that help fuel some aspects of their programs. The question is – what the OP actually cares about, and whether this fueling actually matters. </p>
<p>I think all in all, the OP needs to be very specific about goals at the two schools. Right now, I have more to do than I could possibly ever be able to do in my years at Berkeley, and don’t think I’d have liked the academic programs at most other schools much. But there are plenty of areas of Berkeley that may be lacking. We should consider the OP’s specific situation, which I think is pretty unclear at this stage. The two schools are both great, and it’s impossible to give advice that’d legitimately sway someone if we don’t know what they’re looking for.</p>
<p>Several people have mentioned the difference in cost. This would really depend on your ability to pay. Princeton is one of the wealthiest colleges in the world. If you and your family are not wealthy, they calculate your ability to pay, then they provide grants (not loans) to cover the rest. I think only Harvard and Princeton are able to do this. So, if you aren’t wealthy, Princeton may actually be less expensive than Berkeley. On the other hand, if your family has some money, Princeton will take more of it.</p>
<p>I think Berkeley is world class… but if it were me I’d choose Princeton in a heartbeat. You really can’t go wrong either way, but Princeton is smaller, and my guess is that you will probably be more comfortable there. Good luck!</p>
<p>Tough choice. </p>
<p>I would definitely try to visit Princeton before you make a decision. It’s a different environment in which you may not “click”.</p>
<p>That being said, I would lean to Princeton (if it’s not too cost prohibitive) because, like Berkeley, it is phenomenal in all academic disciplines but Princeton is also much less bureaucratic than Berkeley. It’s likely easier to change majors, get advisement and classes, etc. </p>
<p>Also, I’m of the opinion that you should take the risk and spread your wings a bit. Berkeley was a perfect distance from my family in Southern California. Berkeley may be too close to home for you.</p>
<p>You won’t go wrong in choosing. Good luck.</p>
<p>Sakky, if the kid got into Princeton, I doubt he or she would be the type to fail out at Cal.</p>
<p>If it’s the environment you’re concerned about, Would you prefer a big public school or a private school? They are very different.</p>
<p>ahh SUCH wonderful advices everybody gives.
I realize how I can’t go wrong with choosing: I love Cal already, and I am slowly starting to fall in love with Princeton the more I talk to current Princeton students about it. I also realize how I will have some regret… whatever decision i make.</p>
<p>at what spontaneity said-- “wait-listed at an Ivy and fell in love with a UC”-- that pretty much describes 100% accurately what my situation is.
HAHA. off topic- but it reminds me of a something like a former lover leaving for the military and leaving the woman to wait for years for him to come back, and during the wait the woman falls in love with another man! and then BAM. the former lover makes a re-appearance… so does the woman go back to her former lover or stay with her new lover?
-_- wow. sorry if the story creeped you guys out. HAHAHAHA.</p>
<p>but anyway. priorities. I apologize for not making it clearer before. I think the best way for me to try to convey any of what i want to really say is through bullet points that are not in any particular chronological order or of any specific topic.</p>
<ul>
<li>I am not frightened at all by the large class sizes at berkeley. well, perhaps slightly worried, but I am confident that I will do whatever it takes to do what i need to do. I’m not the most aggressive person on earth, but im assertive enough to get what i want (but im not a selfish person. really :D)</li>
<li>EXPERIENCE is the most important factor to me. brand name? matters very much to my parents, my teachers, my friends, but when I think of Princeton and Berkeley I refer to the colleges as X and Y. Some people think I’m bluffing. No. Name values are not as big a factor for me as… persay… the OPPORTUNITY that the colleges can offer. but… i am sure both colleges offer SO MUCH. that is why i am in such a dilemma.</li>
<li>research is important. so berkeley is good. networking and internship is also important. so princeton is good. but both are good with both. once again… im just grateful that i cannot go wrong with the choice i make.</li>
<li>grade deflation. i dont really know… exactly how the two schools compare in regards to “easy grades” but i’ll survive</li>
<li>financial problems. at the moment my efc is over 70,000. I do not qualify for zit. but my dad is self-employed and 'cause of the economy, next year’s tuition at princeton will be MUCH cheaper for me than at berkeley if i apply for financial aid. I also… hear cal’s tuition will get higher next year :(?</li>
<li>environment. I want to EAT myself for not being able to visit princeton before I have to make my decision. I am honestly willing to skip the tests and just pack and leave but… whats the point of visiting if I’ll flunk classes and get rescinded from both? AHHAHA -_- not funny.</li>
<li>getting to know the professors. ahh… i dont think Berkeley can win this one :(…</li>
<li>i love asians… Princeton doesnt really beat berkeley on this. but i get along with everyone so dont get me wrong 
im just… so culturally asian. HAHA it’d be nice to have people to talk about korean dramas with.</li>
<li>public vs private. I never really thought of berkeley as a public and princeton as a private… i just like to think that they have different characteristics and offer different goodies. my teacher is against me going to berkeley simply because he is anti-public, but he frequently self-contradicts himself in his arguments because he is not anti-cal. he only thinks he is.</li>
</ul>
<p>finally… just as a last note…
CoC and Princeton. Both makes me so equally proud of myself :(… i dont want to get on anyones nerves (like, seriously. -0-! heh) but i’m really really happy and im grateful and I can’t believe i finally did it after all these years! I’m just in a pull because of just how great BOTH of these schools are, and i appreciate everyone’s comments to help me decide T T.</p>
<p>editt!! —
OH! really quickly… I am honestly really liking the idea of undergrad P and grad B… </p>
<p>shizzle- i love both i’ve moved around so ive been to different types of schools and communities (i dont know if i can really compare them to college though) and i love how big publics are really diverse and you meet the craziest people and how the small privates are usually tight-knit and have that kind of… “we are one” thing going on. i think.</p>
<p>“getting to know the professors. ahh… i dont think Berkeley can win this one …”</p>
<p>This isn’t necessarilly true…It’s just that if you want to get to know your professors you have to make an effort, such as going to office hours or signing up for a freshman/sophomore seminar. Most people don’t try so they never get to know a professor. Last year, I got to know just about all my math professors (I didn’t really bother with the other professors as much). In fact, I went to a professor’s house for dinner at the end of the year. I’m not saying every student gets to know their professors but as long as you make an effort its really not hard at all.</p>
<p>^ Go to office hours the first couple weeks of class and introduce yourself…don’t go just before a midterm. </p>
<p><em>Things you learn at a large school</em></p>
<p>Go to Princeton.</p>
<p>hahah yes. i’ve also heard from my upperclassmen from high school who now go to UCB that it is definitely not impossible to get to know your teachers. and ive also heard office hours is something you should use… (i hear many dont O_O)
i took an upper division class at uci (pretty medium sized) and i went office hours to introduce myself to the professor. it mightve been cause i was a high school kid but she remembered me till the end :)</p>
<p>i guess im just not sure if berkeley can really beat princeton in terms of easily getting to know your professors. definitely possible.</p>
<p>does anyone know if princeton’s financial aid gets any stingier with each passing year?</p>
<p>No, I believe that Harvard/Stanford/Princeton all promise that aid will stay the same as long as your finances won’t vary wildly. I would also agree that you can get to know your professors at any school you go to, Berkeley is no different. I just think that when there are 20,000 less undergraduates at Princeton it might be more readily possible to do in multiple classes. You will still have to seek them out and go to office hours though. That’s just part of college.</p>
<p>how the small privates are usually tight-knit and have that kind of… “we are one” thing going on. i think.</p>
<p>I don’t find that to be true at mine. I find the people to be amazingly diverse and to have completely different stories and experiences. Having lived in California my whole life, it was refreshing to meet people from every state and dozens of countries. Not that Berkeley doesn’t have that as well, but top schools are always filled with people from every political and cultural background, that’s why they work so hard for a diverse class!</p>
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<p>You’d be quite surprised. I myself know people who got into Princeton or other top private schools, chose Berkeley (usually because of money), and then wound up on academic probation. While some of them eventually graduated, some didn’t. Even the ones who did graduate still emerged with trashed academic records that essentially precludes them from ever attending a decent grad school. </p>
<p>Again, my philosophy is, why take chances when you don’t have to? It is almost impossible to actually flunk out of Princeton. Berkeley offers you no such assurances.</p>
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<p>I suspect that the CoC is at least the 2nd harshest college at Berkeley, and may even be harsher. After all, it is the home of chemical engineering, which is the only major that may beat EECS in a “harsh-off”. </p>
<p>Granted, the CoC has lighter fare such as chemistry, which is still not that light due to all the labs. On the other hand, the CoE has civil engineering, which is the one engineering discipline from which all other engineers tend to cherry-pick for easy engineering elective grades. </p>
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<p>Wrong. Princeton does not have grade deflation. All it has is relatively less grade inflation. I think all CoC (and CoE) students would cry hosannas of joy if they could swap grading policies with Princeton. 35% of Princeton’s grades will be A’s? Come on, that’s several times more than the percentage of A’s granted in entire swaths of CoE and CoE courses. </p>
<p>Besides, the truly salient aspect of grade inflation is not about the best grades, but about the worst grades. Like I said, at Princeton, it is practically impossible to get anything below a C. You have to actually try to get such a grade. Heck, even getting below a B is rather rare. But in the CoC at Berkeley? That’s a far different story. How many people got C’s or worse in ChemE 140? Or Chem112AB? In some cases, it may have actually approached the majority of the class. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that Princeton’s grading policy is far easier. Getting A’s is easier, and more importantly, avoiding bad grades is decidedly easier. I can think of lots of Berkeley students in the CoC or CoE who’ve had their GPA’s broken asunder.</p>