Ungrateful Son

Parents Forum
41

<p>He should think about the actual cost of a Macbook when he’s paying that loan ten years from now. S wanted one, but when he earned a free laptop from a competition, all thoughts of the Mac were history. Free > his own $$ = win.</p>

<p>Time for a reality check. Unsub loan for personal expenses, books and computer will make him realize pretty quickly that a parttime job isn’t so odious after all. Your S is getting a pretty sweet deal if he doesn’t have to use the Stafford for tuition. My kid is on the hook for Stafford AND a PT job during the year AND a FT job in the summer AND maintaining his scholarship. That’s his skin in the game for turning down a better FA package, and one he accepted willingly.</p>

42

<p>I mean, my parents did the same for me…they pay for books/computers…but I know some parents that expect the kid to pay for half the tuition.</p>

<p>And I can personally see both sides.</p>

<p>College can be a real spoiled “free for all” if the kid can’t even pay for his own books…I speak this way out of experience. I would probably want my own kid to contribute a little more to the cost of his education than I did. It did make me very ungrateful and when I finally had to save up to pay for some classes, I got better grades in them!</p>

<p>In the end it’s not like OP is saying she/he won’t pay for college education at all, expects a full scholarship/etc. OP is paying in full. Little things AT LEAST like books/laptop/etc. should be up to the discretion of the parent. If OP told son there would be no money for those things, well, oh well…I think it is a good lesson in finances.</p>

<p>My parents told me they didn’t have enough money to buy me an 800 dollar roadbike…I was like, why, why, I want it, why >< I need it to commute to school (I do need a bike). So the bike was essential to my success. But was an 800 dollar one?! Eventually I did some bargain hunting, found one for 300 dollars, and just as I was handing over the cash to the cashier my mom offered to pay for it. And then I was so happy and grateful to her as well as happy with my bike. She was right all along. And in this case I think you’re right, too. Macbook Shmackbook. Sheesh! Do some research. Cheaper can be just as good. I second the Toshiba Thinkpad. And there is nothing like the satisfaction of knowing you got a great quality product at a great quality deal.</p>

<p>I sense that OP would be willing to give son money if he TRULY had to take out a loan for his books. But it appears he does not truly have a need, if he cannot make do with a cheaper laptop.</p>

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<p>umcp11 said: “Eventually I did some bargain hunting, found one for 300 dollars, and just as I was handing over the cash to the cashier my mom offered to pay for it.”</p>

<p>OP, random acts of kindness AFTER the lines have been drawn, fought over, cussed at (by your son) , agonized through (by you) and finally understood go a LOOOOOONG way to helping create a more grateful heart in your child.</p>

<p>There are a number of conclusionary posts here (he shodul get a different computer, etc.) My cut on those suggestiosn si to disengage enought to let your son start making more of those decisions. That’s the messaging difference between " nope, you should really buy a Toshiba instead" and “can you really afford a Mac right now.” Suggestions > advice.</p>

<p>Stay strong, be calm, and continue to demonstrate your moral and financial support. And good luck!!!</p>

<p>Kei</p>

44

<p>Our dd wanted a Macbook too, she tried and tried to wheedle us into paying 1/2. We stood our ground…her Toshiba that got her through hs still works and she was putting her ‘wants’ over her ‘needs’ It also helped to find out at orientation that the schools computer based system (sending in assignments etc) does not interface well with Macs, making for extra work and headaches for those who are going to show up with them come Sept. </p>

<p>Hold your ground OP. This is the time for your son to begin to accept responsiblity for his wants and needs (of course with some kicking and screaming). Hey, it’s hard to get booted out of the nest! You have provided more than enough, and somewhere down the line your son will thank you for not pampering him like his buddies are getting pampered.</p>

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<p>Just a footnote. D has been financially independant since January and will remain so when she starts grad school in Fall. I had always kept the spending reigns pretty tight throughout undergrad. Her more profligate friends with generous parents are ALL struggling with debt (credit card and student). D complained PLENTY when she was a snarky little freshman and now, as she looks forward to starting grad school with a stack of fellowships and no debt, she thanks me at least once a week.
/AND…last week she did buy a MacBook Pro with MONEY SHE EARNED.</p>

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<p>Did you make him use his allowance money during junior high to pay for his own school supplies?</p>

<p>I think parents should pay for college textbooks.</p>

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<p>givings—you don’t think that there is a difference between the responsibilities of a Jr HS student and a college student? I paid my D an allowance and took into consideration the cost of books. It was up to her to find the best deals on used or otherwise. You would be surprised how much money students save when they are left to their own devices.</p>

48

<p>re unsubsidized Stafford loan:</p>

<p>Since you did file the FAFSA (YAY!) there should not be much he would need to do other than accept the loan or any portion of it you decide upon. Why not have a talk with your H about this and then tell son, “We will pay your tuition, room & board, etc. as billed but expect you to cover your other expenses.” (Books up to you folks – we do provide them)
Then, if he needs money for this coming year’s personal expenses, including computer, tell him to take whatever amount he decides he will need for the year (beyond what he has saved) as a Stafford loan that he can sign for himself.** His **obligation, nothing on you. Make sure he understands that he, and only he, is responsible for the repayment. He can just let the school know what amount to process. I think the kids have to take a little class (possibly online) to prove they understand the loan obligation. Consider that a free bonus! He may be able to sign the promissory note online. The school will credit half of the annual amount to his fall bill and you can just write him a check for a matching amount. It will still be on him but will take care of the immediate situation. If he does not want to take a loan in future years he can work and save more (and spend less) in the future.</p>

<p>Good luck. Keep us posted. You are doing his future spouse a favor by not going easy on him. (That’s what I keep telling my kids - their future spouses will thank me!) ;)</p>

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<p>Ray (post 38): my son actually works these days–and his company paid for the computer ;-)</p>

50

<p>musicamerica, your idea makes sense in that letting your D handle the shopping, price-comparison and purchasing will teach her how to stretch her “allowance.” But, in my view, barring any unusual circumstances such as divorce, parental job loss or illness, IF the OP is (in her words) upper middle class, then I don’t think it makes sense to NOT pay for her S’s books. They’re not optional. It’s kind of hard to assess this without other information such as, are they paying for an expensive private school or a cheaper in-state one? Has he worked hard on his grades or earned any merit scholarships on his own? Can the parents REALLY not afford textbooks, or are they just trying to make a point and teach him a lesson? Because all of these responsibilities, unless he has been handling all along (paying for haircuts and his clothing,) may be a bit much the first year of college. And she DOES want it to be a success.</p>

51

<p>My D went to an expensive private HS. It was a real struggle for us. We had to budget for books then as well. So even in HS I gave her a flat amount based on the cost of new books and it was up to her whether or not it was worthwhile buying used or new (since she got to keep the balance for “stuff.”)
I honestly don’t believe a college education is a “success” unless the student has learned financial independence . That involves learning what real life costs and how to budget for it.</p>

52

<p>Update on my ungrateful son…this afternoon he came to me and told me that the school had replied to his email request for information and they informed him he was eligible for a $5500 Stafford loan…lol! He also said that he was making plans to sell his i-phone and get a cheaper plan. Yep, that was something he had to have last year too and he has been paying $100 a month for the past year for his own cell phone. I guess he’s now decided it’s too expensive. He even said that he was working on cleaning out his closet and planning to sell some old electronics he had. Now, this is the initiative that I was looking for! I told him how proud I was of him. If anyone wonders why I am asking him to pay for his own books, it’s because I strongly feel he needs to have some skin in the game and I know he will shop around for bargains with his own money. If I’m paying, he’ll just go to the campus bookstore and order everything new and expect me to pay. He does have a part time job, maybe 10-15 hours a week, but believe me he takes off plenty of time for friends, trips, etc. He even went to New York this summer and to Chicago. Cheap trips with friends, but money still spent. That’s why it’s so hard for me to rationalize the blame that is being thrown back on me. Anyway, he said that he understood why I was frustrated with him and he was frustrated with himself as well, but taking it out on me. He also said that he wanted to wait before accepting any of the Stafford loan because he wasn’t sure he would need it. I’m feeling much better now, until the next big blow out :)</p>

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<p>woooohoooo!</p>

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<p>Congrats on the outcome with your son. </p>

<p>FWIW, we required our sons to pay half of their tuition and books. Like you , we felt they needed to have a vested interest in their education, otherwise there would be no incentive for them to finish. I went to school with kids whose parents paid everything and they went for 7+ years and I don’t think they ever got a degree.</p>

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<p>AMEN. And, I also did not think that it was a great idea to wait to start the lessons that lead to independence until college. Allowances that had to cover more than just “fun” stuff, jobs to pay for anything over what they could save from the allowance and responsibility for paying for some things they directly used (gasoline or part of car insurance) can really pay off the college freshman year.</p>

<p>Instead of running through every cent that comes into their hand freshman year (or having the parent dole it out weekly or monthly to keep the brakes on like they were little kids), the freshman with some previous experience with money, budgeting and jobs may have a much easier adjustment to college. I believe that was the case with my S.</p>

<p>With the economy, I’ve seen several parents who used to pay off like a broken slot machine have to close down the National Bank of Dad and Mom and for their princesses and princes the shock has been nothing short of devastating.</p>

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<p>Sunnyday, thanks so much for your update in post #52. Sounds like he “gets it!” :slight_smile:
Your son may want to take out a very modest Stafford just to have a cushion so he does not need to come to you if he gets short. The psychological cushion may be worth the modest interest on a small amount of money. He may choose to pay the interest as it accrues. </p>

<p>CONGRATS on how this is going so far. Stay the course! :slight_smile: :)</p>

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<p>Sunnyday–congrats!</p>

<p>He may seem to have been “dumping” stuff on you, but it can also be the pre-college jitters that almost all HS seniors get to some degree.</p>

<p>I had to smile when you reported that he said he’d hold off to see if he needed the money from a loan. Seems like kids can grow up fairly quickly when they are confronted with actually taking a loan and being responsible for repayment and interest. That is especially true in my experience where the UMC parents have modeled fiscal prudence (so there aren’t always outstanding balances on credit cards etc being discussed around the house).</p>

<p>And, your son isn’t the first kid who realized that he could get some cash from all the stuff he has and doesn’t currently use. Nor, will he be the last. Actually, you may be one of the fortunate parents who has their son (or daughter) “get it” early in the college experience.</p>

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<p>"Did you make him use his allowance money during junior high to pay for his own school supplies?</p>

<p>I think parents should pay for college textbooks. "</p>

<p>Then do that with your own children when you have them.</p>

<p>When I was in college, I went with scholarship, help from my mom, a loan that I paid back and school year and summer job earnings that I used to pay for my books, supplies, clothing and entertainment, etc. during the school year. I never felt put upon. Instead, I felt grateful that my mom was helping me.</p>

<p>S is in college and is responsible for paying for part of his tuition and housing (loans) plus the same things that I was responsible when I was i college. He has never complained. He also knows how to budget very well.</p>

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<p>“If anyone wonders why I am asking him to pay for his own books, it’s because I strongly feel he needs to have some skin in the game and I know he will shop around for bargains with his own money.”</p>

<p>I agree with you. My S, who is responsible for buying his books, has done an excellent job of buying his books used on-line.</p>

60

<p>I am stunned by the replies here, but maybe I just don’t get it. Maybe these things vary with what income group we are all in, and it seems there is more bitterness in the higher income groups that do not get financial aid. This is understandable, but it is not the kids’ fault that college costs so much.</p>

<p>I think that parents should look at why their resentment is so bitter. For instance, is the fact that the original poster did not “get to go to college” relevant here? (I didn’t go, either) Our kids went to a lousy public school, so we also don’t have a backlog of anxiety over high school tuitions and costs, or maybe we would be angry too about how much all this costs.</p>

<p>I think parents should help with , or even provide, books (yes, used), a decent computer (and the kid can make up the difference between “decent” and “great”, unless they are a CS major) and generally cushion things a bit for the first year. Financial independence is not a goal for the college years, when kids are learning and training, but it is certainly a goal for after college. Many families do need the student to help with costs, but that does not seem to be the case here. Are you afraid that by paying for books, the student will be forever dependent? I think the opposite is true: provide well for their education, and they are more likely to need nothing from you in the future.</p>

<p>Some colleges don’t even require kids to work the first year in work-study, but provide the funds, because the first year transition is a big one, and kids should be able to settle in comfortably before worrying too much about money. I think we should go easy on our kids, frankly- they are dealing with a lot. (And I can say that, because I went to work after high school, and got my own place to live, and I still think my kids are dealing with more than I did).</p>

<p>We actually offered to pay for many things for our son, and we did pay for books (he and I went down early to grab the used ones). But he knew our financial situation and ended up 1) spending all of $65 out of pocket each semester 2) getting 2 campus jobs 3) paying for most of his stuff 4) paying, ultimately, for 2/3 of his entire 4 year tuition 5) getting a great job and becoming totally self-supporting right after graduation</p>

<p>So, it all worked out. But when he was leaving for freshman year, I felt we were still responsible for him in a transitional way, and I wanted to support him in every way we could emotionally- and money is symbolic of relationships in that way. We offered, and he mostly refused, unless it was something he really needed. He called to ask if we were paying for textbooks, and we insisted, and it was a nice thing between us.</p>

<p>I think that all this talk about “drawing lines” is counterproductive, and that the drive for independence is very strong, if we parents allow it to emerge properly, without artificial power struggles.</p>