<p>Oh, I understand now, and I see why this kind of situation would be harder for kids to understand than if they have to work because their family is poor.</p>
<p>Part of it may be that parents don’t want their children mistaking the parents’ assets as their (the children’s) own. That “money in the background” doesn’t belong to the children. I don’t see having a kid work when the parents have money as contrived at all; the parents worked for their money, and they are simply letting their children do the same as they reach adulthood. That strikes me as completely natural rather than contrived.</p>
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<p>I believe that this is the key for parents with some level of affluence. If a child is informed, say in early junior high, that by age X they will need to be earning momey for Y and the parent reinforces this expectation with the observation that when you have your own money you will have less restrictions on what you can do, that child isn’t taken by surprise when age X rolls around. </p>
<p>If the parent lets the child know very early in this process that the parent supports college as the way to go and will provide monetary assistence to the child for that purpose, but that the child is also going to have to provide some of his own money, then the child cannot be taken by surprise when college time rolls around.</p>
<p>Can every child be expected to be able to handle this? Well, note that the kids of parents who aren’t affluent at all HAVE to provide part of the cost or college doesn’t happen. I guess you don’t know except for your own child and even then you don’t know unless you try it.</p>
<p>To me, a problem arises when the affluent parent gets angry at their child’s attitude of entitlement say their senior year in HS. First, I do not see how that sense of entitlement can “suddenly appear” that late in the game. Second, I think that a lot of what parents get the student’s senior year and especially the summer after HS is pre-college jitters. OP’s kid may have had that because it doesn’t seem that his sense of entitlement was “engrained.”</p>
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<p>Completely agree. We don’t really talk money, never have. Son knows we sacrifice a tremendous amount for his education and works his you-know-what off.</p>
<p>You’re right 07DAD, his sense of entitlement did not just develop this year, its been building all his life. I had him mowing lawns at age 11, delivering papers at age 13, and making pizzas at 16. I’ve always tried to teach the value of hard work, but his sense of entitlement just grew over the years. He actually informed me that it was my “obligation” to provide him with a college education. Does his attitude has anything to do with parenting? I would say yes, but I haven’t quite figured out where I didn’t get my message across over the years. He’s had friends over the years that have families that struggle significantly and other friends that are quite well off. </p>
<p>I really dislike social labels such as “upper-middle class” and “affluent”. I used this terminology to demonstrate the reason for not receiving any financial aid, but I do not feel we are affluent by any means. I think we work hard, save hard, and are very lucky to never have fallen into debt, lost a job, or experienced a medical tragedy that many other families have faced. </p>
<p>I think the biggest problem I have is that my son has the power to make me doubt myself and he can wear me down in order to get what he wants. No child should have that ability and it’s my fault for letting it happen.</p>
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There is nothing contrived in this situation for our kids. For example, we will pay for a cheapie cell phone and enough minutes for emergency/logistic calls … if they want anything more in the way of a cell phone they will have to pay for it. Could we, the parents, pay any upcharges … of course we could … but we have a 18 year track record so our kids know if they want any bells and whistles or extra featires it’s on their dime. I’m sure if you asked our kids they would say it is in no way contrived … it is quite real for them … and they have NO expectations for any spending money from us during college.</p>
<p>I actually think this topic is one of the more interesting parental topics … how as parents to support your kids/young adults while also not giving them everything on the platter. Personally this is topic I spent a fair amopunt of time on … trying to be consitent, supportive, helpful, and creative. </p>
<p>Creative? One idea we are sure to offer is stolen from a friend’s family. When my friend was ready to buy a condo but did not have the down payment her parents offered this deal. We’ll give you the money for the down payment … it’s money you would inherit anyways … however we are not in postion to give you a gift that big (and did not believe in giving their kids 1/4th of a house). Instead they took money they had in retirement fixed income investments and loaned it to their duaghter at a slightly higher rate of return then their investment but did NOT require any principal payments … they invested in their daughter, got a better rate of return, and she had a VERY LOW monthly payment on the money versus a loan. IMO BRILLIANT … helping her get going in life without putting their finances at risk and still allowing my friend to buy the house on her own!</p>
<p>sunnyday9186 said: “I think the biggest problem I have is that my son has the power to make me doubt myself and he can wear me down in order to get what he wants. No child should have that ability and it’s my fault for letting it happen.”</p>
<p>I hear your truth, and want to say that you seem somewhat hard on yourself while in the cauldron of family relationships.</p>
<p>Greg Brown has a great song about two people driving each other crazy . . . the refrain goes something like this:</p>
<p>You drive me crazy
with all the things you do and do not do
I love soooooooooooooooo much
I’m gonna drive you crazy too</p>
<p>So my response to your plight is to say this: “there you go, sunnyday9186, acting human again.”</p>
<p>Kei</p>
<p>" We don’t really talk money, never have."</p>
<pre><code> I do not really understand how not discussing reality and financial health helps a student mature. It is akin to never talking about sex with a child. It might make both parties uncomfortable but it certainly helps kids deal with real world issues and avoid devastating choices.
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<p>Why is it OK to MAKE a kid pay? Because it isn’t the kid’s money - it’s the parents, and they worked hard to make it and did without to save it. It is their right to determine how to spend it. And only they know what they can spend in order to have enough for retirement. Because unless the kid learns some life lessons about responsibility and money management, he won’t be able to support those parents that gave him everything. As a teacher, I see this all the time. A lot of kids have this sense of entitlement and do nothing, knowing that their parents will bail them out. Then, the parents wonder why they aren’t very successful later on. Isn’t everything supposed to come easy and have it handed to them? As to one year being sufficient or not to plan for the expenses, if the kid got a job and saved it all, then he would have more than enough, and then he can work a few hours per week at school. Unlike his friends, whose parents are going to get them everything, most kids in college do work.</p>
<p>But mostly it’s OK to make a particular kid pay beceause some kids need to have to have some “skin the game” to motivate them.</p>
<p>This is just management problem: what is the optimal mix of rewards and disincentives that will bring out th ebest in your kid.</p>
<p>For some kids, paying money is not an issue; for others it’s critical to optimize success.</p>
<p>The other stuff - it’s the parents money and they get to decide how they spend it; kids are too entitled; nothing is guaranteed in thr world- seems secondary to this: as a parent, what does THIS child need to help them along.</p>
<p>Kei</p>
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<p>Correct, it clearly isn’t a one size fits all situation.</p>
<p>People still don’t understand what I meant by “contrived.” It is probably not clear, and I don’t know how else to say it. I just mean that underneath all of this struggle, the kids whose parents are not financially needy, do know there is a safety net, if you will.</p>
<p>I totally feel that it is our responsibility to provide education to our kids. I think that is part of parenting, and when they are done, then they are on their own. Ironically, my son payed for 80% of his anyway, by working every week off that he had, and having 2 jobs on campus. I did not even want him to work at school, frankly, but he had to and the jobs were useful to him in the end.</p>
<p>It is possible that, if the original poster offered to pay for absolutely everything, the son would “rebel” or, more benignly, assert his independence, by working hard and paying for things- and that scenario is more pleasant for everyone. This way, he is not growing up because of something going on inside him, but because of carrots and sticks. External motivation for growth never really works, in my opinion. </p>
<p>Again, this whole issue is symptom of affluence. I’m sorry to use that word, but “entitlement” is not a problem in the absence of resources. It is just plain easier, psychologically and interpersonally (between kid and parents) when mowing lawns and delivering papers is not about learning a lesson about hard work, but truly just to make money.</p>
<p>People aren’t understanding each other here because we all have different situations and world views.</p>
<p>Maybe this will help. In my 20’s, I lived in Vermont in a house with no electricity and only an outside water pump for plumbing. We took great care, in a Zen like manner, in cooking with wood, hauling water, growing food, and so on. Coffee in the morning required getting wood, getting water, making the fire, waiting for the stove to heat up, then boiling the water for quite awhile. Guess what? On the way to work, I could just stop at McDonald’s and buy coffee! The household was built around a philosophy, but we really knew that if we didn’t have time to make coffee, we could always buy it. We didn’t do that, but we could have. (I end up leaving because the situation, pleasant and cheap as it was, felt “contrived”) That’s what I mean by the term.</p>
<p>I guess when I read the OP…I read that they had ALREADY purchased a computer for the kiddo…and somehow it was not operational after one year. Like I said earlier…we can certainly AFFORD (the parents) to buy a second computer…but we would NOT do this. We told our kids we would buy them ONE computer (and cell phone) while they were in college. If they didn’t last…the kids could replace them.</p>
<p>We have the same type of problem in our home. Our daughter pretty much gets what she needs but not what she wants. What she wants would be endless. I’m awaiting the day, and we’ve discussed this with her, when she’ll be relying on no one but herself. Meanwhile, she’s clinging to her childhood and I’m booting her out the door. But she does have a bank account made up of saved birthday/Christmas presents over the years, and she’ll be dipping into that account should any of her equipment (computer, phone, dorm key) get “lost”. Her having to spend her own money (she’s surprisingly tight fisted) is going to be painful. Hopefully she’s so tight fisted that she will take better care of her possessions and they won’t be misplaced or abused. She’ll be so much happier with herself when she is self-supporting. I know I was.</p>
<p>“I think the biggest problem I have is that my son has the power to make me doubt myself and he can wear me down in order to get what he wants. No child should have that ability and it’s my fault for letting it happen.”</p>
<p>They’ve had a lot of years to know where our buttons are and when to push them. Not to mention, they’re smart and because they’re younger, have more energy to work us. Yet, even though I’m torn up over similar issues as yours, my intuition weighs in and I know from experience that my ability to be consistent has served me the best. My best advice is to continue to be consistent and don’t veer off the path you set for your son. I have also (sarcastically) played the pitiful parent with my daughter when she cried that her friends all got . . . fill in the blank, but she didn’t. Too bad for her, she was born to the wrong family. That stopped the button pushing for awhile.</p>
<p>I think an entitlement mentality is obnoxious and should be combated, and there are many ways to do, withholding money being one.</p>
<p>I understand about contrived. I think solutions are only contrived if the parents are not behind their own edicts. If the kids know that the parents are acting out a charade and not expressing their true values then it is contrived. However, if the parents are serious, then the situation is not contrived. I hope I am being clear.</p>
<p>I never wanted my S to earn money in HS because he practiced his instruments two hours every day and kept up a very competitive GPA in high school. The upshot is he was admitted to a very competitive, meets 100% of need, no loan school, and with two in college, we did qualify for FA. His hundreds of practice hours surely did end up saving us money, although of course, that was not the motivation at the time.</p>
<p>His school also has all texts on reserve for FA kids so he never has to buy texts.</p>
<p>He got a GF and wanted to eat out (yup in tiny Williamstown – I will never again believe there is nothing to spend money on), but he knew I would not want to fund that because he is on the meal plan. His b’day present was a gift certificate to their favorite restaurant, and he decided to get a job to fund their nights out.</p>
<p>I think it was an incredibly valuable experience. He had to select which position to apply for, interview for it, (he’s shy – I’m sure that was tough) and budget his time and show up for all his hours. He did.</p>
<p>He was rewarded with an evaluation of all excellents and his supervisor telling him he’s the best worker he’s supervised. My very modest S was quite pleased and surprised at the accolade. At his school getting A’s is a very difficult task, so being celebrated in another area was a real boost to self-esteem.</p>
<p>My D worked all four years in college. She earned her book money over the summers, and she worked during the school year to fund a social life in Manhattan. I wouldn’t have been able to pay for it, and she wouldn’t have been comfortable with me paying for it.</p>
<p>I think four years in the same office job is probably more helpful that her BA in her job hunt. She has excellent recommendations and many job skills. She was also the research assistant for the Chair of her department.</p>
<p>Working is a great addendum to classes for many young adults.</p>
<p>I do think each family handles these questions slightly differently. As long as the parent has the child’s interests at heart, I think there are many viable approaches.</p>
<p>And who wants to unleash a spoiled brat onto the world? I want my kids to be good, responsible citizens. But I do also want them to know that they always have a safety net in me.</p>
<p>Yes, this is a difficult tightrope, but so much of parenthood is.</p>
<p>We did not require that our kids work during HS. They both attended very tough programs and were already taking on a lot more than the frinends at the neighborhood HS. Their “job” was to do well in school, pursue activities that interested them, have some down time, and make the most of their opportunities. OTOH, the summer after senior year they were expected to get a job. They both have a small cushion of their own savings over the years of about a year’s worth of personal expenses and books, if they are careful with money management. Of course, this money was factored into EFC, so the expectation is that it will be used for college expenses.</p>
<p>S1 would like to do a program abroad fall of junior year. He obviously won’t be able to work, and it may take a while to find a job when he returns. We’ve talked about the need for him to make sure he has what he needs for that extended time frame. We may help a little, but the onus is on him to make things work. Our other S will be starting college that fall, so $$ will be really tight.</p>
<p>Mythmom, I think your story illustrates what I was saying: your kids appear to have decided to work, on their own, and the background was that you did not have the resources to pay for things anyway. I am sure it felt better because they were motivated on their own, by what they needed, and not by conditions set by you. They can feel proud, and autonomous.</p>
<p>In a paradoxical way, this is just harder when parents do have resources, and are withholding help that is possible financially ( if not at all prudent to give), because then, the kids are not deciding to work, on their own, for what they perceive as needed, but are following parental mandates. So, instead of feeling proud and autonomous, they feel they are following orders or conditions, and are resentful.</p>
<p>Sorry to beat a dead horse.</p>
<p>Compmom…sometimes kids THINK their parents have these extra resources when really they just don’t. Believe me, my own kids had a LOT more resources available to them financially UNTIL we started paying college tuitions/room/board fees for both of them. So…what they “could” have asked for before college bills (and likely gotten) and what they might have asked for AFTER college bills began were two very different things financially. And kids don’t always understand the financial picture of their family vs other families. AND as we know…some “other” families could be living quite beyond their means while the OP’s family is trying to live within a budget.</p>
<p>I still go back to that the OP DID buy this kid a computer a year ago. It’s not working now. That would be IT for my kids. ONE time purchase. There aren’t too many computers on the market that just DIE after one year of use unless they have been somehow misused. And as others have pointed out…there are computer labs ALL over most campuses and even IN the dorms. With the advent of the thumbdrive, this would not be a hardship for a student until such time as he could make up the difference between what he NEEDS vs what he wants for a computer.</p>
<p>We are in the position of giving regular allowance to D1 and pay for all related educational expenses. They are given with the condition of her working on campus and having summer jobs. D1 originally was not too keen on having a campus job. But like mythmom’s son, she has learned a lot more outside of schoolwork. She was nominated to be student employee of the year by her department this year. They like her so much, they are willing to hold the position open while she is studying abroad in fall. Her office was very tense this past spring because of budget cut. She had to learn to deal with grumpy co-workers and boss. Before she came home this summer, she lined up 3 jobs for 6 weeks (she had to leave early July for study abroad) to fund her spending money in Sydney. </p>
<p>We were concerned about working on campus, how it would impact D1’s study. But we are happy with the decision and outcome. She is a lot more confident about getting a more professional job next summer and upon graduation. She also knows she needs to work 3-5 hours in order to afford a dinner out - and sometimes it’s just not worth it.</p>