Ungrateful Son

<p>When son was in HS, he wanted to work and did because he wanted things that we simply could not and would not pay for. D didn’t work at anything but school and was happy with what we could afford to give her. Fast forward to college. Son is attending expensive private which we are paying for (he has loans too) but he is also working this summer to pay for his books and miscellaneous. He had to use $$ he rec’d for graduation towards his computer. He has an on-campus job. D will be attending large public- costing us $0, and has just received a stipend which will cover her expenses. She worked her tail off and is now seeing the results of that work. We did purchase her the recommended computer for engineering but she’ll be using her grad $$ for books. </p>

<p>I think at times son believes there’s a money tree in our backyard that we just shake. D is more aware, I think, of financial pressures since she was home during a very stressful period in our family finances. Son doesn’t want to listen to financial discussions; D made decision not to attend out of state public because she didn’t want to be saddled with huge loans before graduate study. </p>

<p>I think we all try to be responsible parents according to our standards and expectations, based upon our own experiences; what is right for one family may not be right for another. Heck, even kids from the same family get the same message and go in different directions. One may have a sense of entitlement, one may have a sense of gratitude. I’d love to be the person that figures out why that happens!</p>

<p>My kids got to see first-hand what happens when a breadwinner develops a serious illness and has to leave work, incurs major medical bills, etc. – and how it didn’t become a financial catastrophe because we live below our means. (That squeezing is what pays for college, since our savings is not as substantial as we hoped because we lost a half-time income for the 5 years leading up to S1’s departure for college.)</p>

<p>We haven’t had any resentment here about working. The guys know that their contributions make some schools possible that otherwise would be off the table due to finances.</p>

<p>compmom: Yes, I understand your point. They have seen me struggle to keep two in college at the same time, but they will each graduate loan free. That was my value.</p>

<p>And yes, it’s great that they came to it on their own. </p>

<p>We had a lot of money pre-9/11, but my H’s business never really recovered, and he made some disastrous business decisions.</p>

<p>My D has said she’s grateful she learned to provide for herself.</p>

<p>And the lifestyle she lived in NYC from working was more luxe than anything I’ve ever experienced!!! For instance, a Coach bag was not on my wish list, but she ended up with one, so I’m very glad she earned it.</p>

<p>As one friend said to me, earning one’s own money means not having to say “thank-you.”</p>

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<p>I think I’ll turn that into a T-shirt. That kind of sez it ALL!</p>

<p>We thank our D. for having merit scholarships all the time. And we told her becuase of that we will help her thru Medical School. I do not see big deal in paying for her, will be less left for government to take from us, when we will need to pay for all crazyness that is going on. I love that I can spend money on my child. We are just middle class people, not rich, both working, can loose our jobs any time, like everybody else. money should never be a wall between family members anyway.</p>

<p>Do what you can for him now, and I’m sure by the end of college, he will have grown up and appreciate you. DO let him know he is acting spoiled, and have him sign a contract to the effect of by having you co-sign the loan, he will be fully responsible to make the payments and you reserve the right to counter-sue him for any damages to your credit, etc. Maybe once he realizes you are serious about him being an ungrateful son, he will fall in line.</p>

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Yes, there is a safety net. Do you believe that there should not be? Or do you believe that they should not expect to contribute or to work at all, because the parents do?</p>

<p>Two stories that I love about this situation, one true, one (maybe) not:</p>

<p>1) John D. Rockefeller required each of his sons to work for a year in the lowest paid, dirtiest job in his business. They were required to do so incognito, and were required to live on what they earned - no going back to the mansion at the end of the day. The sons who successfully did so, contributing to the company, were later hired as executives. The sons who were not successful, who complained endlessly, were summarily dismissed and did not work in the business again (until they grew up). Contrived? Damned straight. But Rockefeller wanted to make sure that his sons understood what they were requesting their workers to do and what those workers’ lives were like. Made them better executives and better men.</p>

<p>2) One of Cliff Huxtable’s kids asked him, “Daddy, are we rich?” To which Cliff (Bill Cosby) replied, “Let me explain something. Your mother and I are rich. You have nothing.”</p>

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<p>I love it! :)</p>

<p>“Maybe this will help. In my 20’s, I lived in Vermont in a house with no electricity and only an outside water pump for plumbing. We took great care, in a Zen like manner, in cooking with wood, hauling water, growing food, and so on. Coffee in the morning required getting wood, getting water, making the fire, waiting for the stove to heat up, then boiling the water for quite awhile. Guess what? On the way to work, I could just stop at McDonald’s and buy coffee! The household was built around a philosophy, but we really knew that if we didn’t have time to make coffee, we could always buy it. We didn’t do that, but we could have. (I end up leaving because the situation, pleasant and cheap as it was, felt “contrived”) That’s what I mean by the term.”</p>

<p>COOL!</p>

<p>My son is a spoiled brat and he is a rising college senior. People tell me there is still hope. :)</p>

<p>Still hope MOWC.</p>

<p>D just graduated from college and she has morphed into a lovely young woman just this passed year. Before this, she went through a very self-centered, self-absorbed phase. She is just lovely now, even though her life is not going as she would wish because of the economy.</p>

<p>She’s thoughtful, loving, fairly responsible and itching to be completely self-supporting.</p>

<p>My daughter is spoiled too…but she pays for it herself. We don’t have enough money left to spoil her after paying her college bills and flying her cross country to come home. I hope she finds a job which will support her in the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed…because after college graduation…she’s on her own.</p>

<p>Chedva, I am going to give up after this, and not post again here. I am getting tired of myself, but one more effort to clarify. </p>

<p>I am using the term “contrived” in a sort of philosophical way, to describe a perception of reality, not as a judgement. It simply describes a situation in which the need to work is not absolutely authentic ( which would be based on absolute financial need), but instead, the work is intended as a way to absorb values such as personal responsiblity, work ethic, independence. In addition, the work is being done not because the student himself sees the absolute need, but because the parents are requiring it for attainment of their own, explicitly stated, values. So it becomes an issue between parent and child, not a strictly economic issue that is emotionally neutral.</p>

<p>Of course anyone would approve of kids working, and kids working toward independence, and I never said that I did not think kids should work. I have stated several times that my son paid for 80% of his college by working every spare minute he had. </p>

<p>However, the difference is, we never told him to do this. He knew it was needed. We would have liked for him to work less, not more. We offer as much of a safety net as we possibly can, and did pay for his books, as a gesture that had little actual worth versus the expenses he was handling on his own, but that conveyed an emotional message that we cared about his education and wanted to support his hard work in some way.</p>

<p>There is no judgement here. I just think that parents with more resources are dealing with money being a “wall between family members” (someone’s eloquent phrase) in a way that, ironically, families with fewer resources do not. </p>

<p>That is because, for less affluent families, the need to work is obvious, and the kids just go ahead and do it for the direct reason that money is needed. Parents do not have to tell them to do this, and the jobs are just, er, jobs, and not expressions of parental values being imposed from above. So money is not a power struggle, and, actually, the parents aren’t even involved. Money issues become more cooperative, with people pitching in and/ or taking care of themselves.</p>

<p>Rockefeller’s sons were working in a job that he provided, under terms that he determined. That is not an autonomous situation, and I think that kids with any spunk would rebel. The situation described is almost trite these days. The CEO’s son or daughter in the mail room sharing experiences with their future employees. However, it is also a stereotypical situation that children of the wealthy (and we are talking extremes here, not anything to do with the posts here, but you brought up the Rockefellers) are absolute messes, and lack initiative or ambition of their own. Another stereotype is the low-income immigrant who cleans toilets so that their high achieving son or daughter goes to law or medical school. Those parents are supporting their kid in every way they possibly can, and do not need to require mowing lawns or delivering papers to get the message across. Many would prefer to work more themselves to their kid can study, and not work, if possible.</p>

<p>It was probably not an idea even worth posting in the first place, and I seem to be having a hard time making myself clear. It is interesting to read these threads, but I agree with the person who said we all have different philosophies and we can all be right in what we are doing, even though our approaches are so different. Kids are different individuals, and we all come from different backgrounds and have different values. I read once that consistency is the most important thing, and many people here, including the original poster, are demonstrating that. And her situation with her son is improving, so there is really no more need to write on the thread!</p>

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<p>Kei-O-Lei - Awsome post (#26)! It made my morning, because I’ve been there, done that - I’ve had 2 already have had that “summer before leaving” angst and survived!!</p>

<p>Believe it or not, one has graduated and become gainfully employed, and actually says, “Thank You” to my husband and me for the opportunities we gave him!</p>

<p>They DO grow up, and they ARE appreciative down the road.</p>

<p>OP, stick to your guns, you are doing the right thing. Your son will benefit from you steadfastness alot more than if you caved in to his whims!</p>

<p>compmom,
I understand what you’re saying, and I agree.</p>

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<p>I don’t see, if there is a good relationship to begin with, where the cards are laid on the table, why there is resentment. Yeah, there might be a, “Well, Susie’s mom doesn’t make her work to buy those $120.00 - Seven Jeans!”, but, that is just immaturity speaking, and most kids will grow out of it.</p>

<p>My kids didn’t have to work, nor do they have to while in college, unless they choose to. We pay for their expenses, including books, etc., BUT, if they want to go out and eat every night, or party like rock stars ;), they are on their own. Both my college kids have worked at some point for extra money. </p>

<p>My oldest is a miser and wanted to save his money so he worked full time as a bar manager his last two years in college. Not only did it give him an incredible sense of pride and autonomy, it filled his bank account at graduation to the tune of $48,000, and it is probably what got him his current job! EVERY interview he went on, he was asked about his work experience, NOT his gpa or major. </p>

<p>*Just something to keep in mind for soon to be college grads - while most of his buddies, whose parents footed the total bill, sat around the keg partying, some kids were out working, whether they had to or not. And, during this economic downturn, the kids who are having better success at getting hired (from what I’ve been hearing from people - both parents and graduating kids) are the ones with work experience to put on their resume…</p>

<p>By the time DD graduates from college in June 2010, she will have 3 1/2 years of work experience in the undergrad admissions office at her college…including full time work there this summer AND completely running one of their admitted student programs. This has NOTHING to do with her major (engineering) but does show a commitment to a job, with some upward growth while doing it (she started running that program in her junior year). We (and she) are hoping that this will at least get a nod from those who are considering her for employment as a college grad. AND she has had a terrific boss for those years who is very willing to write her a letter of reference about her job performance! Not a bad thing.</p>

<p>S did not have to work either during term time or summer. He did, however, and besides the money, he acquired experience that looks good on his resume. Work also gave structure to his days so that he learned how to budget his time. Knowing how much he was earning per hour and how many hours it took to buy what he wanted also gave him a much better appreciation of the value of individual purchases beyond the dollar cost. That said, he never wanted something just because somebody else had it. He is generally frugal and is good at comparison shopping.</p>

<p>We have always told our children: you can have things you really want if you are willing to pay for it. Our daughter has no tuition expense, but wanted a laptop. We went to a computer recycler and got one for $200. She paid for it with her summer job money. And yes, our kids fought the “other parents do this pressure” all through high school, as we send our children to private high schools. I told them, you need to find more practical friends, or find a lifestyle that fits your budget, whenever we heard about this kid getting a computer, car, European trip, etc, etc… My line in the sand is raising a child that feels entitled to things, as my husband and I go without year after year. If they expect things we cannot afford, we expect them to find a way to pay for it. That is how life is, what better time to teach them than when you are still in essence, raising them?</p>

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<p>Great for her!! and so true!</p>

<p>For my son, being a bar manager had nothing to do with his major (economics), and certainly nothing to do with his employment (commercial banking);), but it did show that committment and management experience that they were looking for.</p>

<p>I *****ed (complained) about the hours he spent there :rolleyes: for two years!! I worried that it was going to hurt his grades and effect his chances of getting a job after college - Who would have thought it was precisely THAT experience which would get him the job!!</p>