<p>My friend's son was the same way, but the maturity didn't come with the first semester of college. He is now in his third or fourth school, and at 26 finally has seen the light and found what he wants to do. After a disastrous frist semester, my friedn got him to take one or 2 classes at the CC and work. So now, he says, "I can't believe I messed up and I am the oldest in my class." "If I knew then what I know now..." But they hung in there with him, and he also admits that they told him all of this, but until he recognized it, it didn't make any difference. He will graduate at 28, and has a great career plan. So just be there to see him through, and remember, maturity will come in its time. Some earlier, some later. As to doing things ahead of time - that is personality. Some kids naturally do, and some procrastinate. Just support him, and he will find his niche at the right time.</p>
<p>I, too, laughed out loud at the thread title because of the instant recognition factor. Count me as another CM (hey, a new CC abbreviation!) who has zigzagged schizophrenically between micromanaging and hands off my unmotivated S. </p>
<p>Went hands off in sophomore year, grades dropped badly. Warned my S that this year (he's a junior) I am checking grades DAILY (we have a computer program with instant access to all grades) and query him DAILY when I see any poor grade. I also give him positive feedback when I see he's doing well. I know he's not happy about the inquisition but I'm trying to put him on notice that I'm checking and that slacking off is not an option. </p>
<p>I ask him about the homework/tests due the next day (which I already know about because assignments are also on the website). The CM rants and raves when it's a stupid arts-and-crafts type assignment, e.g. a collage, because he plain old sucks at that type of thing. He routinely takes twice as long to do that type of project, but assures me that he can do it in an hour, starts too late, then realizes he needs some materials that he has to run to the store to get (thank heavens for 24 hour supermarkets) and at 11:00 at night is just beginning to put it all together. Whereupon, a lot of exasperation from both him and me. </p>
<p>I actually don't micromanage i.e. force him to sit down and do work but I do set parameters. For example, he has a job from 6-10p.m. On nights he's scheduled to work, homework has to be done before he goes which means no getting together with friends. I do ask him what work has to be done and we talk about what each entails. By making him say it out loud, I'm trying to teach him to see a bigger picture and then how to break it down into smaller, doable tasks. But then he's on his own for following through.</p>
<p>I, too, am trying very hard to back off. I hear what some of the wiser, more experienced posters are saying and the trend seems to be to let him rise (or sink) to his own level. I do think it's a maturity thing but this waiting is killing me!!</p>
<p>My grandS "sank" in the college admissions game during jr/sr year because parents/school were out to lunch somewhere. Had I been on the scene, I don't know if I would have had the ability to step back, even though I think that's the right thing and what so many of us are saying the OP should do. Easy for us to say :o, not so easy to do.</p>
<p>fredo's story made me wonder - could it be that some of these "unmotivateds" have too much on their plate? I think I might look for areas to slack off myself if I had demanding class assignments, ECs, friends and a 6-10pm, eg, job. That's a lot. I haven't faced this situation myself, so I'm not suggesting this is the case, just wondering if that could be a part of it? </p>
<p>and, fredo, DS and I celebrated when high school ended and there would be no more "artsy, enrichment" assignments in Spanish, history, English etc. class. Not his cup of tea and oh-so-time-consuming.</p>
<p>I have a daughter like your son who has just started college. I also have a three year old who is learning to use the potty. I've come to the realization that these are similar situations for us parents. The bottom line is the child has to do it themselves - we can't do it for them. But we have to make sure they get it and we have to figure out a way so they do. If we push too much they might resist and if we don't push enough they might feel like they don't need to do it. Some kids get it right away and some kids take forever. Most kids are somewhere in between. Some kids need a break once in a while, some kids need well timed accidents, and some kids need pull ups for special occations when we don't want any accidents. There is nothing wrong with major bribery and consequences. Also always make sure you celebrate their successes with them.</p>
<p>Definitely an attractive topic. I think most of us have experienced this at one time or another! </p>
<p>Here are a couple of suggestions. There are different approaches to letting go and hoping they'll swim.</p>
<p>First of all, remember that boys/men are not (in general, I know there are exceptions) good at detail. If it makes you feel better to set up a calendar for your son, DO IT! Explain to him that it was to make YOU feel better--make a joke out of it. Believe me, by this time he knows how you feel! Hang it in a prominent place, like on the inside of his bedroom door. Make it ultra explicit--3 months til due date, then 8 weeks,etc. Use a big calendar with extra space and attach a pencil in case he wants to write a note himself, or cross something off as finished. You may be surprised what happens. Do not use a computer calendar for this, use a real one. When you get nervous about the dates, look at the calendar first before nagging.</p>
<p>Second, hand over non-academic responsibilities that he will have once he leaves for college, if you haven't already. Laundry, weekend lunch, buying contents for the dorm fridge (snacks), shopping for clothes. The "reality discipline" that takes place with this can spill over ;), and the consequences of not paying attention to them are pretty minor. My sons have done their own laundry since they were tall enough to reach the knobs.</p>
<p>Finally, I have a different take than jmmom. Remember that when you want something done, ask a busy person. Personally I think that procrastination is facilitated by having lots of free time. (which is not to say that "down time" isn't valuable). So keep him busy, if he doesn't already do many regular chores.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>
[quote]
mom60 wrote: We have seen to many boys who have done the Northstarmom's Son route. Basically a waste of 40,000
[/quote]
I hesitate to say this, but at one time a traditional solution was a few years in the military. I have friends who say this literally turned their life around. For one thing, they run/work them enough in boot camp to burn off some of that excess energy. Then with any luck they get posted overseas and see other cultures first-hand while at the same time remaining in a no-nonsense environment with continual close supervision. One person I know, for example, was a weather observer in the air force out of HS (stationed in Germany) and is now a successful lawyer; he says there is no way he could have done the straight college route. Another one was in the marines and was a aircraft mechanic, got to spend time travelling the Pacific ocean, and then went to college with most expenses paid.</p>
<p>However with the military needing cannon fodder for adventures in Iraq and the like, I'm not sure this is a good option unless its in a branch of the service with less on-the-ground involvement.</p>
<p>There are other volunteer opportunities like Peace Corp or AmeriCorp that can be considered & researched. Sometimes experiences like that really help put things in perspective & help them contribute to our world & society.</p>
<p>Some folks even volunteer to teach in prisons, work in social service situations where they always need a lot of help, charities, etc.</p>
<p>Mom60: I can give you an update right now. The last few days we have been engagd in a tug of war. My son does not want me to nag him over school work, but I want to know if he is doing it and preparing for tests etc. This morning I told him that I won't ask him about his school work if he wil develop a time management plan for long term projects and tell me that he has a plan. I will not comment on his plan or question him about whether or not he is sticking to it. I just want to know that he has a plan. He flat out refused. "I'm 17, I'm a senior, I will manage my own life" etc.... This from a boy who is contantly taking 'surprise" tests, which are a suprise only to him. He is either day dreaming or too lazy to jot down the date when the tests are announced. I want to believe that he is maturing this year and will actually do it without reminders, but his track record is not good. </p>
<p>I want to leave him alone and let him take his lumps but it is hard to do. With my nagging he has maintained an A average at a very competiitive school. He typically messes up during the school year,then I get on his case, I force him to cram for his finals, and he pulls it out at the end. He is in the top 6% nationally with his SAT scores. His IQ skirts the Mensa cut off. So much potential, so little motivation and focus.</p>
<p>Still, the posts on this thread have been overwhelmingly in favor of the sink or swim approach, and as Mom60 noted, it gets harder to micro-manage a resistant subject. So I am crossing my fingers and leaving him alone... at least until the next school crisis.</p>
<p>My first observation from you most recent post is this. You want to see a plan which I understand but you then detail that he takes exams which are "surprises only to him". How would making a plan that doesn't include exams which he is unaware of help you and as you believe ultimately him? I see a disconnect here. </p>
<p>Second question: Are you going to feel better when he gets into a selective college which you apparently are going to pay for and the same behaviors persist? I mean your plan doesn't seem to be fruitful at the end game......you will still be paying and probably not close enough to successfully impose your will.</p>
<p>Before you hate me, I am not against nagging mothers....just wondering at what point you cut looses and see where the high water mark is. My opinion is that you are imposing your will not a logical consequence. My personal belief is that kids learn effectively from logical consequence. </p>
<p>One is happenstance, Twice is circumstance, Third time enemy action.</p>
<p>count me in as having a son with the same problem. he was diagnosed ADDinattentive, but I think it's just teenage boys. I would constantly have to sit with him in high school to do his homework, saying, "now do this, now do this, hey, pay attention". in 9th grade I became pregnant, and was very sick. there was nobody there to watch him. he failed 3 classes. he had to attend summer school, and believe me every morning when I had to drive him throwing up and sick, I screamed the whole way. that was the wake up call. he started slowly but surely, and by senior year was doing great. I feared his first year of college, but he made deans list, didn't miss classes, had some trouble speaking up for himself but grade wise did ok. socially is another story, but that is a different post. so I do believe in the let them sink theory, because that summer school was the trick.</p>
<p>chammom,</p>
<p>Just letting you know that I empathize with you. As painful as it is to stand back and let a kid sink or swim in high school, I can speak from experience that it's more painful to watch an adult offspring who is living away from home learn some very hard lessons that would have been far better learned in high school.</p>
<p>I am wondering if you think that parents who allow logical consequences are uncaring. I know that when i had to face logical consequences my folks were empathetic and tried to support me as i figured out how to get through it. In no way is the logical consequence sending your kid out to see without a life vest......more it is saying I see you are out to see and forget the sail was ripped....what are your plans, do you have a paddle or other tools you can use? I see it as spending the controlling impulse energy on developing and implementing a solution. To my way of thinking a more productive kind of helping......a fruitful one. The task of adolescence is risk taking and part of what logical consequence is learning when to risk and on/for what.</p>
<p>chammom,
Last year when my daughter was a senior she had alot of freedom at school, timewise, to work on her senior project. This caused her to miss the bus home a number of times. Since we paid $300 a month for the bus and since her school was 45 min away this became a huge problem. One day my husband and I were so fed up that we told her she could sleep at school because there was no way we were picking her up. Well she finally made it home about 8 o'clock that night after spending $50 on a taxi - her money. Needless to say she never missed that bus again!
If your son messes up his senior year he won't get into the school of his choice but maybe he'll will learn how the system works and he will do well in the school he ends up at and go to a really great grad school. Getting into a top tier school is not everything - getting "it" in life is. As Dr. Phil says: "either you get it or you don't"! You want your son to get it.<br>
That being said, make sure your son applies to your local State University because if he doesn't "get it" that is where he should go. We constantly told my daughter she was going to a state school because we were not paying $40,000 for her to have a good time. We also told her we would gladly pay it if she put the work in. It worked out that she is at the State University this year and she has a guaranteed transfer to Cornell next year if she has a 3.0 gpa. I wonder if Cornell had the same feeling about her as we did. Whether they did or not we will never know, but I told her that if she worked harder and didn't wait to the last minute to do everything quick and dirty she would have made it in. So far she seems to be working very hard this semester without any input from me. We will see if she makes it. I figure either way I can't lose - she will get what she deserves.</p>
<p>Hazmat: I think loigcal circumstances are great-if the person actually cares about the consequences. I think that parents that encourage logical circumstances are very wise. I have tried to take that strategy in the past with my son. The result was that his grades went downhill, but it did not seem to bother him. </p>
<p>I think what I am getting from all the posts is that I can nag him into performing, but unless he is self motivated, he might not suceed in the long term. If I back away now, he still might not care that his grades drop: he might not even care about it in college. But the bottom line I am getting is that he has to self motivate. I could make him perform, I can't make him care.</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone who has shared their story. SBMOM, I charge my son $10 if he gets up late and misses the bus and I have to drive him the 3 miles to school., or he can walk. He is much better about being on time. When he is late, i really enjoy pocketing that $10! (used to be $5 but now I am charging more due to the higher gas prices!</p>
<p>It is a challenge balancing how much to "help" and how much we need our kids to care on their own. As a parent, I am constantly weighing this myself. I have brilliant under-achievers myself. I try to do minimal nagging & generally do let them have whatever consequences life hands them. So far, it's been with mixed results. They do pretty well, but could do a lot better if they planned & cared more. Oh well, will see how things evolve.</p>
<p>Chammom-
When I read your thread title a couple of days ago, I thought I must have a twin. I am the original controlling mom with an unmotivated kid. I always thought I was the only one. Other parents have posted on CC with similar problems, but their kids always sounded just a little more together than mine did, and the parent was just a tad less controlling than I was. It wasn't until I read yours posts in this thread that I really and truly found someone I could truly identify with! Your son sounds identical to mine in nearly every way.</p>
<p>My S is now a sophomore in college. He was a National Merit finalist with a 1600 SAT. He tested well but made less than straight As because he blew off homework and hated to study. He never really got into the whole game of college applications and it was only with my pushing that he even applied anywhere by the deadlines. He got admitted to a couple of Top 25 universities with merit money in the range of $20-25K and a couple of others with no aid, but he chose a free ride at his state U. </p>
<p>In the long run, he just wanted to be where his friends were. I was disappointed in his choice but it WAS his choice. The state U is humongous, classes are large (many of them are online - you don't even have to show up) and it is easy to be anonymous. That is NOT the situation that a procrastinator needs to be in!</p>
<p>He didn't exactly shine in his freshman year in college. He wound up with a 3.4 average because of stupid things like missing exams because he showed up at the wrong time or because his laptop wasn't working when he needed to take an online quiz. Had he been living at home, I would have been the one to make sure the computer worked or that he had checked the professor's webpage to find out about the last-minute time change. I think reality hit home a little when he got his final grades and realized that he could have done so much better if he had just paid attention.</p>
<p>I am truly hoping that this year he matures a little and takes charge of his own life. It's hard, but I'm staying hands-off. I must agree with all of the previous posters who advocate the sink-or-swim approach and I only wish I had used it when he was in high school. I have another S who's a HS junior this year and, believe me, I've learned my lesson. S2 will make his own mistakes, he will be totally in charge of his college applications, and he will live with the outcome of both. I will help him and guide him, but that's all.</p>
<p>I know that my older S has the brains and ability to do well in life, and so does yours. I wish I had acted differently when my S was in HS but you still have the opportunity to do it. I think it's worth a try. Good luck!</p>
<p>I think last year there was a parent who made the hard choice to not pay for the more expensive selective college and sent the child to the state university instead for similar reasons. Maybe someone will remember who it was and you could PM them. I think they were from Mass.</p>
<p>Peace Corps requires a college degree in almost all cases, unless maybe you are retired with 40 years of experience. I think AmericCorps is probably the same. Military service did work for a slacker brother of mine--after 6 years at 3 different colleges, part time work, etc. He was a new person after boot camp. He was sent to Germany, came back and finished his degree with ROTC at a 4th college(--where he met his wife, who inherited her family farm...now he is better off than his grad-degreed siblings with their six figure incomes--you never know where crooked paths will lead). My slacker son would never join up, and I wouldn't recommend it with a war on. Should I advise him to marry well? </p>
<p>S is a good student, NMSF, who says he doesn't want to go to college. I just can't sit back and let him "make that decision."
Where will he be next year? (Not sitting around my house, eating my food, using my computer. . .) I think he sees the logic in at least getting in, getting scholarships now, (should he throw away full scholarship offers this year, only to decide next year, that, gee, he wants to go to college after all?--and he thinks mom and dad will pay?) with the possibility of deferring later. I think once he gets there, he'll do fine. He said he feels pressured to make decisions, doesn't know what he wants to do for the rest of his life. . .I told him he doesn't have to know all this before he starts college. People change majors, change careers. College is for growing up and learning and deciding, but decisions aren't set in stone.</p>
<p>and so you think he might die from choosing to live in an apartment perhaps w/ others and work or barely get by? You think this might cause death but not motivation? Some schools admit during mid cycle and who ever said that doing nothing as long as one provides for it one's self was deadly???</p>
<p>Him deciding not to decide, and doing nothing, then having me decide to kick him out is still involving me more than I want. I don't think/didn't say he would die from working/living in an apartment, but with six younger children to put through college and no savings, and him having full scholarship offers (including some at private colleges worth over $100,000) we have a lot more interest than most people in getting this particular kid off to college this year rather next, or the year after. Doing nothing at this point, for him, I think would be a very expensive mistake. Most students start college "undecided." I want him to know that that's OK, that he doesn't have to have his whole career planned out BEFORE starting college.</p>