<p>I guess from the way you describe your personal circumstances I can see that you would make it clear he must "clear out" or be in college. From you posts it sounds that an alternative year is not an option unless he funds it himself. I can see that you want him to take the funding and fly away. What i don't see is that he can get loans on his own to fund school......job+loans like many kids do. IF he chooses not to go on your route and thus involves you as you say.....I would suggest setting some parameters down. What/When you will pay and how much....under what circumstances. Should he choose not to go and then return at a later date and you choose not to pay under those circumstances it seems to me it is not for you to worry.</p>
<p>Atom, our slacker son got the message the summer he mopped floors at a fast-food restaurant (night shift); came home smelling like grease from scrubbing the fryolater, and couldn't get the stains out of his uniform. His GC had suggested a couple of interesting paid internships in a field he was interested in way back in February... but that would have required putting together an application, making phone calls, lining up interviews several months ahead of time. Since he decided to plan his summer the last day of school-- and we told him he needed a job by the end of the week, Fast Food was his destiny. He could take public transportation or walk there, since he didn't have his license yet and we made it clear we weren't driving him to work.</p>
<p>Fast forward.... Fast Food was our best friend. He is still a procrastinator, he is still somewhat disorganized, and he occasionally misses a deadline. However, he is graduating from a tough school with a (so far) good GPA, has several interviews lined up already for his "real job" after he graduates in June, and has mostly gotten his act together. Even he credits the worst job he's ever had with getting him in gear.</p>
<p>His co-workers that summer were NOT HS kids.... the folks who clean restaurants late at night are grown-ups, who do that kind of work because it's the only work they can get. The sadness and the missed opportunities and the no opportunities of late nights there were a better kick in the pants than all of mom's nagging could do. His boss told him time and time again, "this job is great... my last job was at Old Navy and all I did was fold sweaters all night". Yikes. This for a kid who doesn't know the difference between dirty and clean laundry, let alone folding! By the time he got his first paycheck and actually saw his take-home pay from a lot of hard, smelly work, he had figured out that he desperately wanted to go to college, and was prepared to rise to the occasion in order to do so.</p>
<p>Will he ever be hyper-organized like his parents? I doubt it-- not who he is. Do we still see signs of the slacker? For sure... but he gets to class on time, he hands papers in when the professor says they're due; he seeks out his TA's when he doesn't understand something in a lecture, since he knows that the world is filled with people who make minimum wage and never had a chance to get an education.</p>
<p>blossom - Yours is just the success story I think we all envision when we root for the difficult but wise "sink or swim" approach. Miraculous turn-around? Maybe not, but useful course correction based on Real Life Experience. Definitely so. When my grandS started out in his minimum wage grocery clerk job, he thought it was pretty cool and didn't seem to have any regrets that he had missed the college boat. After only a few months of viewing the world as it is lived by the under-educated, his motivation was entirely different. He is just in his first few weeks at state U, but I am very much hoping that his college experience will be very much like that of your S.</p>
<p>JmMom- for sure not miraculous, but we never told him "sink or swim". After a year of him telling us to get off his back because "I'm an adult", we informed him that we were going to treat him like an adult.... and since he had a 2 and a half month vacation, he got to take two weeks to do whatever he wanted (which was to watch The Simpsons and ESPN all day on the couch) and then he needed to get a job. Any job as long as it was legal and safe (i.e. no using heavy machinery unless he was properly taught how to use it.) He opted to find the job first, and to save the TV time for the two weeks before school started which was fine by us.</p>
<p>If he had the slightest bit of initiative, I have no doubt he'd have found a better job. However, he was too lazy to put together a resume.... so armed with nothing more than a baseball cap and his social security card, the best he could do in a week was a job nobody with real choices would take.</p>
<p>That's the lesson that has stuck... if you're lucky enough to be born into a family and a world where you have choices, why screw it up????</p>
<p>I just wanted to say this has been a great discussion with lots of great ideas ... and hopefully we can all find a good way to help our kids find their unique way in the world.</p>
<p>patsmom: I was very interested to read about your son, especially sending him off to big state U because I think that's what's going to happen with my son. Now he's no 1600 SAT guy, but he does have that genius IQ (and 3.1 GPA to go with it - what's wrong with that picture??) and there's no way we're spending private school money on a kid who puts forth minimal effort. But I so worry about him being able to just float along and hide in the masses with noone i.e. CM or caring prof (yes, yes I know they're there at the big state schools but I believe it would take a more motivated student to find them) around to push and prod.</p>
<p>I think a 3.4 for freshmen year GPA is doing pretty well, by the way, even though he's capable of more. But from your description and all the others who have posted here (including myself) a 3.4 in college would be cause for celebration! So your story actually gives me great hope because I think it shows a very positive trend. </p>
<p>I think we're all in one big support group worrying about those unmotivated kids and silently praying and waiting for that one day when a little light bulb goes off in their heads and they realize: hey, I do want to do better! </p>
<p>Intrinsic motivation is what I'm desparately hoping my son eventually gets. But as you said chammom, you can make them perform but you can't make them care. Extrinsic motivators e.g. bribes may help in the short-term but long-term success will come when they themselves have the desire to do their best.</p>
<p>While we're waiting, is this when we head over to Sinner's Alley Happy Hour?</p>
<p>
[quote]
While we're waiting, is this when we head over to Sinner's Alley Happy Hour?
[/quote]
I believe there's a special table set up waiting for the CMs
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1245134%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1245134</a></p>
<p>Aren't they inventing the drink of the day over there: The katrita......BOGO</p>
<p>fredo-
Although I hated to see him go to the state U for the reasons I mentioned, I, too, am glad that we didn't shell out the big bucks for the better schools, since he was so unmotivated. And he didn't really care, anyway. I do think that one of these days he's going to realize what he passed up. I'm hoping that the epiphany will come soon, while he's still an undergrad, so that he can make up for his slacking by applying and getting into a good grad school. Of course, he's no closer to choosing a major right now than he was on his first day as a freshman. I think he's looking for the major that takes the least amount of work.</p>
<p>I guess you're right, a 3.4 is nothing to be ashamed of. But he lost a lot of points for stupid reasons -- forgetfulness, lack of attention, etc. He went for over 2 weeks with no e-mail communication with professors and TAs (an important requirement of most of his courses) because he never got around to calling someone in campus tech support to help him fix his computer settings when his e-mail program went on the fritz. He just put it off and put it off until he missed out on crucial information that he needed. He even missed an appointment with his adviser because of it. </p>
<p>Blossom's story about her S's summer job sounds too familiar. My son's classes were over by April 28 so he was home in May. I told him he could have a couple of weeks to decompress but then he needed to either start looking for a job or else take a summer course. He wasted time, putting off signing up for a summer course, apparently waiting for the Job Fairy to visit him while he slept! By June he had started putting in applications around town for clerical jobs. When those didn't pan out, he took a busboy job. That lasted one day - he hated it. Then his standards started getting lower and lower as he applied for minimum wage jobs like video store clerk, mall store employee, etc. He was surprised when he didn't get those jobs, either. He ended up bagging groceries at the local supermarket. I don't think he'll let that happen again next summer, but that remains to be seen.</p>
<p>It gives me great comfort to find out from you and others that his attitude is not uncommon, and he HAS been doing better with his studies so far this year (at least he tells me he has). I think Sinner's Alley would be a fine place to hang out while I wait, though...</p>
<p>I'd just like to say thanks for this thread - it's very timely for me. Mine is a HS soph this year and only recently has it finally really dawned on me that nothing I do or have done will change him. Consequences haven't made any impression on him, he will either decide to turn himself around or he won't.</p>
<p>Yes, our son already is working at a fast food place, and he can see what he doesn't want to be doing for the rest of his life!</p>
<p>Aah, the Job Fairy. What memories you people are evoking for me!</p>
<p>Cammom, I hate to invoke one of the mental problems du jour but I'm the third person in this thread to mention ADD. That comment about leaving the house with 2 different shoes sure rang a bell here. My son was finally diagnosed with ADD his senior year in >college< (no hyperactivity). He was similar to your son, believe me senior year in hs in particular was a nightmare. All AP's and very little studying drove me crazy, he still pulled A's and B's. Often with very smart kids ADD isn't considered till late since their intelligence overrides their other problems.</p>
<p>He does not take medication. Why then is the diagnosis important? The best reason: it explains his behavior. It was actually a collective sigh of relief for all of us. Oh so that's why he wore 2 different shoes to school or forgot his bookbag again or that senior pictures were LAST week.</p>
<p>I did not follow the sink or swim route. Probably in retrospect it was because he was smart and we thought maturity would kick in eventually. Lots of 17 year olds are very immature, especially boys. They don't know where they want to go to college and the more you talk about it the more they tune out. Not all can handle the application process on their own. It does not necessarily follow that if they need help then they aren't ready for college. I knew he'd need help in the application process so I helped when I could (organizing, etc, not helping with essays) otherwise he would have ended up at our local community college. He has thanked me many times for helping him. Simple reason for applying to selective schools: we thought he'd do better at a selective college because all his friends were smart and he'd be happier with kids like himself. We were right, he did just fine in a tough college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Lots of 17 year olds are very immature, especially boys. Not all can handle the application process on their own. It does not necessarily follow that if they need help then they aren't ready for college. I knew he'd need help in the application process so I helped when I could (organizing, etc, not helping with essays) otherwise he would have ended up at our local community college. He has thanked me many times for helping him. Simple reason for applying to selective schools: we thought he'd do better at a selective college because all his friends were smart and he'd be happier with kids like himself. We were right, he did just fine in a tough college.
[/quote]
Very good points here, imo.</p>
<p>He he, love the Job Fairy.</p>
<p>I confess, some part of me reading this thread is reviewing the Where Have All the Women Gone thread and just wondering....Were boys always like this? Even back in the days when they grew into the men who ruled the world? And if they were different then, what happened? Or were they always like this and it just didn't matter?</p>
<p>Again, these "unmotivated" types may become the Steve Jobs of their day, once the real world is there to motivate them. We don't know...</p>
<p>My lastest ploy is to keep telling my son that the path he is on is leading to community college and that means 2 more years after high school of living with dear old Mom. I am hoping that helps, as he sits on the couch playing x box. The studying is coming after this last game- how many times have you heard that one.</p>
<p>None of the observations and outcomes mentioned should come as any surprise. We have a public education system which is geared toward mediocrity. Our big concerns in education seem to be involved in testing to identify and correct the worse schools and teachers. We have been concerned about special education, headstart and now - no child left behind.</p>
<p>We pay very little attention to the bright kids who are bored beginning at an early age. Sure we have some honors and AP programs but it is too little too late. There are always private schools - if you can afford them. Many offer little more than the public schools and most exist because of a religious agenda. </p>
<p>As an adult how would you like to have the school life of a secondary school student? Thirty plus years later I still remember how much a disliked school especially the boredom and regimented, controlled environment. Of course, back then teachers and schools were worse -- and I had to walk 5 miles through snow drifts to get there. But seriously I don't think they have improved much.</p>
<p>Considering how boring the schools can be for a bright kid, it is amazing how many live through it and do well. Different kids handle school differently. My older daughter was very bright, but by middle school she had lost all interest and went into a decline which lasted for years. She never regained her creativity, ambition and love of learning. My younger daughter probably does not have the equivalent intelligence but has a very competitive nature. She has excelled in school and that was only a small part of her interests and successes.</p>
<p>By the time our kids are juniors and seniors in HS, I am not sure we have a lot of options in changing the patterns of the past years. If it has been necessary to push and nag, maybe we need to continue and hope "they come to life". I am afraid that is not very likely.</p>
<p>Quite often CC has a thread which is titled something like: Expensive school, are they worth it? Our younger D has just started a double degree program in our of the most selective - and expensive - universities. She is working 12 hours/week, doing extra projects on the weekend and taking 23 credit hours. Today, we heard she has too much free time and can do more next semester. We are pushed to pay the tuition. Is is worth it? You bet! Would it have been worth it for my older D? Unfortunately, no. It was so sad to see her lose interest in learning and growing and to be unable to help her find her way.</p>
<p>update: another "surprise only to him" quiz. Still will not plan for several long term projects. His answer is "I'll get to it".</p>
<p>2331clk: S has always had attention, organization problems. He was tested for ADD and the reults were inconclusive. We had already decided that we would not medicate, so we did not pursue it further. We tried instead to teach time management, organizational skills etc. You see where that has gotten us! However, I have to say he is totally focused on the things that are important to him, such as researching new video games, buying concert tickets, etc. You can be sure that when he is going out with his girlfriend his shoes match! So I think it is less ADD and more lack of interest. </p>
<p>sdad; interesting post. My son certainly does better when he is a class that interests him, worse in the ones that he finds boring- which is most of them. However, there are many other bright students in those classes which may be bored, but are staying on top of their work. My son's school personality extrends to other areas of his life as well. He lives on the pleasure principal. Similiar to the mom who's son procrastinated about getting a job and had to go the fast food route, my son puts everything off, even practicing for his road test. So while school is often boring, so are the day to day tasks that we all learn we must do and plan, to make our lives run.</p>
<p>"e had already decided that we would not medicate, so we did not pursue it further. We tried instead to teach time management, organizational skills etc. You see where that has gotten us! However, I have to say he is totally focused on the things that are important to him, such as researching new video games, buying concert tickets, etc. You can be sure that when he is going out with his girlfriend his shoes match! So I think it is less ADD and more lack of interest. "</p>
<p>You might want to read about ADD/ADHD because what you describe is the way that ADD/ADHD people are. They pay rapt attention to things that catch their interest. They are extremely disorganized and inattentive to things that don't interest them.</p>
<p>I'm reading about these brilliant/bright boys who test so well but GPAs reflect lack of motivation to do homework. I truly think these kids have been bored and not challenged at their schools. They probably have outside interests that they pursue with passion. I wish schools were more receptive to allowing kids to jump a grade in a subject they like. Taking classes at local college helped my S, because of the professors and difference in how classes were taught.</p>