UPENN vs. Cornell

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At Cornell, something like 600-700 students are transfers each year, and the school places them in totally arbitrary housing all over the place. A lot of transfers I knew there said they were generally disappointed by the whole experience.

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<p>That was a bad mistake on housing's part. Don't think CALS transfer admissions folks and transfer students (myself included) didn't try to fight it. A group of us set up a meeting with the housing director...proposed new solutions and we were shot down. As CayugaRed mentioned...the issue was rectified. Granted...it's not as good as having another Transfer Center...but it does the job and helps transfer students adjust.</p>

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At Cornell, something like 600-700 students are transfers each year, and the school places them in totally arbitrary housing all over the place. A lot of transfers I knew there said they were generally disappointed by the whole experience.

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<p>There are a lot of threads on this...do a search.</p>

<p>CayugaRed2005, of course Cornell has incredible English, Philosophy, etc. But the only highly selective undergrad program is engineering (I won't talk about Architecture because it accounts for only a tiny fraction of each class).</p>

<p>As for your other, appallingly ridiculous assumption: Penn SAS >>>>>>> Cornell A&S. Just look at the revealed preference article: 70% of those students accepted to both Penn and Cornell choose Penn. The 30% who go to Cornell is quite likely almost exclusively for their engineering.</p>

<p>The Atlantic monthly ranked colleges based on selectivity in 2003.
Penn was ranked 8th.
Cornell was 21, after UCLA and Georgetown.</p>

<p>Not to mention that in terms of HS decile (penn 96%, Cornell 87%) and SAT averages (Cornell: 1290 - 1500, Penn: 1330 - 1540) Penn is much higher.</p>

<p>Seriously. Go to any group of Cornell students, and ask them if they had applied to Penn, and then if they had been rejected or accepted. You aren't going to find many (if any!) Arts and Sciences kids who had been accepted.</p>

<p>I have to admit I've never done any research on Penn, but I always had the impression it was less selective than Cornell (except for wharton) - guess that isn't true. I suppose it's because a lot of very intelligent kids I went to HS with, including our salutatorian, went to Cornell, and the students who now attend Penn were the ones considered less smart - but I don't know what their specific gpa/sat was. </p>

<p>Anyway I'm thinking of transferring from NYU to Cornell. I did think of Penn, but I'm not sure if I'd be as happy there. Cornell CAS is just as selective as Penn (10%) and there's a huge transfer group, partly because Cornell is a bigger school, and also because of all the GT students and CC students. Plus, I don't want to live in Philly. The NYC closeness means nothing to me because I go to NYU, so I'm obviously trying to get out of the city. Plus I live less than 30 mins from Manhattan anyway. </p>

<p>The other thing I don't like about Penn is that when I visited it was all about Wharton, Wharton, Wharton...they like forget about the other schools. Kinda like how at NYU it's always Stern, Stern, Stern...</p>

<p>Also, who considers Columbia a 'lower ivy'? If I had to divide the Ivies into upper half and lower, Columbia would be in the upper with HYP. Not that Cornell, Penn, Dartmouth and Brown aren't top schools, they're just less selective.</p>

<p>**Which college has the stronger Govt major, Penn or Cornell? **I'll probably major in Econ or IR btw.</p>

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I was paying way too much money to listen to kids mispronounce Shakespeare, so I applied to more selective schools where presumably that wouldn't happen.

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I don't get it - you think those students are dumb because they couldn't pronounce Shakespeare? All that means is they didn't read it in HS and are unfamiliar with Old English. It's more of a reflection of their HS English curriculum than them. </p>

<p>I'm not an English major, so I couldn't care less about that. I don't think I'm dumb, but if I went into a Bio class filled with Bio majors, there are definitely terms they use I probably couldn't pronounce...doesn't mean I'm stupid, just unfamiliar with them.</p>

<p>I'm really not trying to start an argument with you - I'm genuinally curious why you chose to transfer, because I might transfer in. It can't be something as trivial as pronounciations - was it because Penn had a better program in your major? Just wondering.</p>

<p>muerteapablo, look up the average SAT scores of students at Cornell CAS vs. Penn CAS, not much difference. Even if you were to compare all of Cornell to Penn CAS, the difference in SAT score is, what, 40-50 points, roughly 2-3 extra questions right on the SAT. I think your perception of the intelligence of Cornell vs. Penn students is colored by the CC-bias that 40 points on the SAT is a big deal.</p>

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Not to mention that in terms of HS decile (penn 96%, Cornell 87%) and SAT averages (Cornell: 1290 - 1500, Penn: 1330 - 1540) Penn is much higher.

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<p>I am glad that if I am accepted at Cornell I don't have to be studying with a person who does not understand how Cornell chooses people. Cornell is not stats-focused. Cornell puts that extra focus on match, between a student and his, or her, major/field of study.</p>

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Seriously. Go to any group of Cornell students, and ask them if they had applied to Penn, and then if they had been rejected or accepted. You aren't going to find many (if any!) Arts and Sciences kids who had been accepted.

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<p>My cousin picked Cornell CAS over Penn SAS. </p>

<p>Back to the author's question. I think it depends on what kind of education you wants. I like Cornell for the people. I visited Cornell last year and found the people to be extremely polite. </p>

<p>I visited Penn this summer, and unfortunately, I found people there unhappy somehow (I guess it's summer after all). In addition, I found certain Penn students sardonic in attitudes and tones. That is reflected on the Penn board. </p>

<p>To be honest, I really enjoy the people on the Cornell forum. The things they say are just way more intelligent than those by Penn students.</p>

<p>Dear lord almighty, the Cornell trolls are out in full force tonight. Although, I suppose this IS on the Cornell board.</p>

<p>Fact of the matter is, Penn is MUCH more selective. Just look at the Selectivity rankings ANYWHERE: Atlantic Monthly, USNews, Princeton Review. They all put Penn in the top 10 hardest schools to get into. Cornell isn't even ranked in the Princeton Review, and it's #21 in the Atlantic Monthly, after UCLA! These are objective rankings, people.</p>

<p>Stargazerlilies:
1. Shakespeare is not in old English, or even middle English: it's completely modern. The only thing old about it is its antiquated sentence structure. I used that as an example of the general ignorance present in Cornell's student body. They don't know how to read at more than a halting level, in general. They don't discuss public affairs. And they would have a hard time listing more than 3 Shakespeare plays. That is why I transferred; the students were hardly inspiring in the least. A few of them were, but almost all of them were not.
2. Penn is absolutely on the level of Columbia. I'm not really sure how you could think otherwise. They rank higher than them in USNews, and have a higher selectivity ranking. Not really sure where you're getting your data from.</p>

<p>Norcalguy: 40 points across 1000 students is a big deal, and its hugely significant from a statistical standpoint. Even if you don't want to accept that, simply look at the difference of HS rank: 96% at Penn were in the top decile, compared to 87% at Cornell. That's monumental. I personally knew many people at Cornell who had not broken 1400 on the SATs, and they were in A&S.</p>

<p>Shifu Yoda: Do you honestly believe that Cornell would sacrifice actual intelligence for more mediocre students who are more interested in their majors? I don't think so. Cornell simply can't attract greater talent, that's all.</p>

<p>As for your cousin, he or she was part of a tiny minority. I didn't meet ANYONE during my year there who had gotten into Penn and decided to go to Cornell.</p>

<p>At Penn, however, I've met a ton of people who got into Cornell. And Columbia, for that matter. And chose Penn.</p>

<p>Finally, look at USNews. That is truly the siren song for nearly all High School students. It ranks Penn at #6, and Cornell at #14.</p>

<p>So to sum up: Penn's departments and programs are almost uniformly better (with the exception of Physics and Philosophy and Creative Writing), the student body is smaller and much more selective (this is OBJECTIVELY true, no one has yet been able to cite a ranking that refutes this), it's conveniently located close to major routes of transport, yet it's comfortably far away from home, and it has a ton of school spirit.</p>

<p>One last thing: Cornell CAS isn't even CLOSE to 10%. It was 18% percent last year, and that was regular decision only. Early Decision probably moved up to 20% or so.</p>

<p>In short, go to Penn or Columbia, but not Cornell. The common ranking of the Ivies, by the way, is:
HYP >> Columbia, Penn > Dartmouth, Brown >> Cornell</p>

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Norcalguy: 40 points across 1000 students is a big deal, and its hugely significant from a statistical standpoint. Even if you don't want to accept that, simply look at the difference of HS rank: 96% at Penn were in the top decile, compared to 87% at Cornell. That's monumental. I personally knew many people at Cornell who had not broken 1400 on the SATs, and they were in A&S.

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<p>You still didn't answer my question. What are the average SAT scores of A&S @ Cornell and Penn?</p>

<p>They don't measure Cornell A&S alone. Penn's SAS, though, has an average score of 1437 (Wharton is 1450). Cornell's certainly isn't that high.</p>

<p>Read this:</p>

<p>University</a> of Pennsylvania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

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In short, go to Penn or Columbia, but not Cornell. The common ranking of the Ivies, by the way, is:
HYP >> Columbia, Penn > Dartmouth, Brown >> Cornell

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<p>A typical American bs. Go out and see how people around the world rank the Ivies.</p>

<p>Harvard > Columbia > Princeton > Yale > Cornell > Penn > I don't see Dartmouth and Brown...</p>

<p>By the way, why would anyone trust US News & World Report? Go and take a look at Shanghai Jiaotong University's ranking, one of the most objective, most trusted and widely recognized. Keep in mind though, that this ranking does focus more on research. </p>

<p>At least I acknowledge my argument's drawbacks.</p>

<p>The decision of Cornell versus Penn as first choice should be totally up to the applicant. Just because one school may have better rankings and such isn't a marker of a better school for one person. Colleges have fits. You fit better at Penn; that much is clear. But people who currently attend Cornell or people like me and Shifu Yoda (who I believe) are applying ED to Cornell would call Cornell a better fit for them. </p>

<p>Also, being able to recall Shakespearean plays off the top of a hat or using advanced vocabulary isn't a sign of intelligence. I'm glad that since you weren't happy with Cornell you transferred to Penn, where you are. That's great - transfer stories like that make me smile because people finally go where they belong - but don't be flaming a school that is, contrary to your beliefs, an excellent university to someone who might like it better than Penn (gasp!). </p>

<p>Last point: the Ivies aren't the only good schools out there. There are tons more and you can get a great education at many of them. It isn't Penn or bust.</p>

<p>Haha, absolutely no one outside of China gives a damn about SJU world rankings. Those don't even take into account SELECTIVITY!!! That's where prestige comes from.
You want to be truly objective, while accounting for selectivity?
The Times of London rankings for the US:
Columbia:6
Penn: 7
....
Cornell: 11</p>

<p>This ranking is also widely regarded as the true world opinion, given that world academics are still based in the US and Europe, and this comes from the UK.</p>

<p>Regardless, this is totally immaterial.</p>

<p>High Schoolers shouldn't be using rankings of scholarly output to decide what undergraduate program to go to. You would be seriously wrong to give them advice that way.</p>

<p>Just to show how wrong you are: go up to any high school senior, and ask if they'd rather go to the University of Michigan over Brown (according to SJU, they should). Of course they won't!</p>

<p>I'm applying to PENN as well as Cornell, but PENN's far down the list for me.</p>

<p>Can anyone tell me why Beijing University is so high up in the Times ranking? My dad is an employer and he said Times' ranking is a bunch of ****.</p>

<p>Now back to the topic.</p>

<p>I do think that everyone who gets accepted into the Ivy League or other top public schools or private schools should harbor some sort of appreciation. To the OP, Penn and Cornell share many similarities, and many differences. You should spend part of your freshman year to visit each school, and get a sense of the atmosphere. Please keep us up-to-date. After you visit each school, a feedback on the forum is greatly appreciated.</p>

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<p>I don't agree. I can think of several kids who are good friends of mine who would disagree.
One of my friends was going to apply ED to Penn but decided to just go to the University of Michigan instead (which he's bound to get into since he's a seriously strong applicant).</p>

<p>On the other hand, I do know a girl who I don't particularly like who is applying ED to Penn because 1) she's a legacy and 2) she likes brand name schools, instead of just going to University of Florida, which is a place she knows she'd love. Those are pretty stupid reasons to ED a school.</p>

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They don't measure Cornell A&S alone. Penn's SAS, though, has an average score of 1437 (Wharton is 1450). Cornell's certainly isn't that high.

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<p>Oh, but they do:</p>

<p><a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000176.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000176.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The 25th-75th percentile ranges of CAS (Cornell) are 1310-1520.</p>

<p>I'd love to see the percentile ranges for Penn's Arts & Sciences school. The 25th-75th percentile data I have for Penn as a whole is in the neighborhood of 1330-1540. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the stats for CAS are in the same neighborhood as the overall stats, in which case, Penn CAS has Cornell CAS beaten by 20 pts. I personally do not think that will result in a noticeable (to the naked eye) difference in the intelligence of the students.</p>

<p>Both CAS and Engineering have 94% of students in the top decile of class, <a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000154.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000154.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>There are many reasons why one would choose one school over another, it is not all based by stat. Obviously muerte did not find Cornell to be a fit for him/her. The biggest plus of Cornell is of its student body - very smart, diversified and VERY understated. You could meet a pretty, sorority girl and find out she is an engineering student, or a "dumb jock" only to find out he is a 4.0 student. My daughter has a good friend that transferred from CAS to Hotel last year because he's an aspiring chef. He and my daughter sampled and graded some of the nicest restaurants in NYC this summer. </p>

<p>My daughter, coming from a very good private high school, thought her freshman courses were quite easy. This year at some of her higher level math courses, she is working very hard to keep up.</p>

<p>I think if you visit each school's forum, you could get a very sense what students are like. I think most response in this forum from current students and recent graduates have been very helpful and respectful.</p>

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As for your other, appallingly ridiculous assumption: Penn SAS >>>>>>> Cornell A&S. Just look at the revealed preference article: 70% of those students accepted to both Penn and Cornell choose Penn. The 30% who go to Cornell is quite likely almost exclusively for their engineering.

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<p>And what percentage of the common admit number for Penn do you think is being driven by Wharton?</p>

<p>Beyond that, the bigger problem with common admit statistics is that they fail to take into account all of the students who only applied to Cornell or Penn, but not both, because maybe they only wanted to be in the city, or out in the country...</p>

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One last thing: Cornell CAS isn't even CLOSE to 10%. It was 18% percent last year, and that was regular decision only. Early Decision probably moved up to 20% or so.

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<p>Cornell CAS as a whole was 18 percent last year. If you limit it to regular decision it was closer to 14-15 percent. And those numbers do not include the 1,000 students who probably wanted to apply to Cornell CAS but never bothered to indicate so on their application.</p>

<p><a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000146.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000146.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>One thing to consider when looking at acceptance rates is that Penn is really able to lower its acceptance rates due its aggressive use of ED. If Cornell admits 35% of its class ED (thinking it is fairer to allow more slots open for kids who may not be as well off to not have to worry about financial aid), but Penn admits upwards of 50% ED, what effect do you think that has acceptance rates?</p>

<p>The bigger question for you is this: How do the acceptance rates tell you anything about the difficulty of getting into a school and the underlying quality of the student body? And if they don't tell you anything, than why do you use it.</p>

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They don't measure Cornell A&S alone

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<p>Of course they do, you are just ignorant of the facts.</p>

<p><a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000176.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000176.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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Not to mention that in terms of HS decile (penn 96%, Cornell 87%) and SAT averages (Cornell: 1290 - 1500, Penn: 1330 - 1540) Penn is much higher.

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<p>Cornell CAS and Engineering are at 94 percent. Suffice to say, when less than half of all schools are now providing class rank, I don't think it is all that important.</p>

<p>The bigger problem for you is that Penn (like Duke) holds tight with its admissions data. Why, I don't know. It fails to provide a public Common Data Set, and it fails to break out its admissions data for each of its undergraduate colleges. Cornell really has nothing to hide. It knows that the admissions and rankings game over the last decade has gotten sillier and sillier and it still provides a quality education to quality students.</p>

<p>So if you have any actual source for admissions statistics for Penn SAS, I would love to see it. Until then, we can only compare Cornell CAS to Penn as a whole.</p>

<p>And when you compare Cornell CAS to Penn as a whole any perceived differential goes away, because you really shouldn't be lumping in thousands of hotel students and agriculture students when you are trying to make a sound comparison, should you?</p>

<p>Average Cornell CAS SAT score: 1415
Average Penn SAT score: 1425</p>

<p>University</a> of Pennsylvania Profile - SAT Scores and Admissions Data for the University of Pennsylvania - Penn</p>

<p>Let me know if you have a legitimate SAT range for any of the individual colleges at Penn. (I doubt you do.) But I suspect that SAS at Penn is actually lower than the 1425 average due to the presence of Wharton and the School of Engineering.</p>

<p>On top of this, once you consider the fact that Penn is less socioeconomically diverse than Cornell (and household income is hugely correlated with SAT scores), I can't understand any argument that Penn SAS students are quantitatively "smarter" than Cornell CAS students.</p>

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Do you honestly believe that Cornell would sacrifice actual intelligence for more mediocre students who are more interested in their majors?

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<p>That's not the point. Cornell is attracting some of the most dedicated students in the country (if not the world) in many niche majors like ornithology or collective bargaining. I would much rather have somebody who is passionate about what they do than somebody who looks great on paper. </p>

<p>Suffice to say that there are many more programs at Cornell vis-a-vis Penn, where the admissions committee takes a much more holistic view of the student, be it architecture or hotel or agriculture or textiles or ornithology. </p>

<p><a href="with%20the%20exception%20of%20Physics%20and%20Philosophy%20and%20Creative%20Writing">quote</a>,

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<p>... and chemistry and evolutionary behavior and architecture and agriculture and sociology and math and computer science and comparative literature and labor relations and human development and every single engineering discipline under the sun...</p>

<p>First of all, your Penn data is quite old. Here is Penn's website:
Penn:</a> Facts and Figures</p>

<p>You're taking quite a leap by saying that those 1,000 negligent students would have been applying to A&S.</p>

<p>Penn accepts 35% ED, not 50% (where on earth did you get that number?)</p>

<p>I do have a legitimate range for CAS's SAT average: in 2004, the admissions officers officially told the Daily Pennsylvanian that CAS was now only 10 points lower than Wharton. This has been published in the book, "The Running of the Bulls: From Wharton to Wall Street."</p>

<p>Penn has a vested interest in withholding individual admissions data: the two smaller smaller schools, Engineering and Nursing, which together have 500 students per class, would suffer horribly in admissions. It is a well-known secret that they are somewhat less selective, and to release that data could effectively destroy the gains that they have made. Seriously. </p>

<p>Also, you should note that SAS at Penn makes up 67% of the school. Wharton, at 18% of the population, can make a small dent in admissions data, but not a significant amount (unless their numbers are truly, astoundingly different by 40 points or more, which is HIGHLY unlikely, since that would be even more selective than Caltech or Harvard).</p>

<p>Face it, the numbers do not lie. Penn is definitely more selective, it's higher yield cannot be dismissed by speculation about fake ED policies.</p>

<p>Cornell definitely has its share of smart kids. I simply think that Penn has more, and that's what I wanted.</p>

<p>Cornell might attract the best ornithologists, but for collective bargaining? Wharton is definitely the first choice for any aspiring business man.</p>

<p>Cornell definitely has better Math and hard science than Penn, but in everything else, Penn is better. The NRC ranks Penn equal to Harvard, Yale and MIT in terms of quality of research output and departmental standings; it ranks Cornell as the second cluster down.</p>

<p>Just saying.</p>

<p>My final point: although it is possible that Cornell A&S is similar in selectivity to Penn CAS, the state schools at Cornell undeniably detract from its prestige as a whole, and this absolutely jades students otherwise interested in their offerings. Seriously, (and undeservedly, believe me that I agree) Cornell is regarded as the doormat of the Ivy League. It is generally not seen as a peer school to any other Ivy (for undergrad, anyway).
Is this fair? Not at all. But it is the truth. So, while we can take part in this discussion somewhat decorously (I guess I'm not helping) on the Cornell board, it would be laughed out of every other Ivy's forum. Anyway, that's all.</p>