<p>Since cash is fungible, scidoc would be hard pressed to trace the $50 to any one source. Perhaps Abramoff learned his lessons in generosity at Georgetown Law.</p>
<p>Ok scidoc, I guess I didn't quite understand the whole "muse" remark at first, so I apologize for being so harsh. Moving on... Believe me, I'm no fan of Brandeis, especially the pre-med program, but I think it's very rare for a pre-med to be kicked out of the program. I suppose in engineering they can bar you from the required courses so that takes care of that. However, the required science courses for pre-med are not pre-med specific so anyone who's taken the prereqs and gotten the minimum grade (like a C- usually) can take the next course. On the other hand, the pre-med board here gives students different official classes of recommendations in addition to the subjective comments, such as top candidate, highly recommended, recommended, etc. with the lowest one being "no recommendation"--effectively ending your chances of being a doctor. It's a cruel system in general because they trash a lot of people's applications rather than trying to get everybody in somewhere. Also I think plunking down $200 G's means the least they could do is try to give you a future. When all the chips fall about 2/3 of applicant pre-meds here get into med school, although probably close to two-thirds of "freshman pre-meds" never end up applying. Most of these get fed up with the stress and obnoxious lab requirements and quit of their own volition. I don't know exactly how we compare to other schools in this regard, but I've heard unconfirmed rumors that Harvard gets over 90% of their pre-meds in. 65-70% still isn't awful, unless you remember that that's only 65-70% of the 1/3 of students who entered thinking they wanted to be physicians. Which is more like 20-25%.</p>
<p>Oh, and does anybody know if Abramoff disliked Brandeis? Because certainly with his wealth (or the $$$ he had before getting what he deserved) he could have afforded to donate 1,000X or more of that amount. I would think most multimillionaires who went here and loved it would have donated small fortunes.</p>
<p>Dirty little secret: many schools have high medical school acceptance rates because they are very aggressive in weeding out those that don't make it before they get to the committee. Some are pretty heavy-handed, up to the last minute.</p>
<p>Given Abramoff's political leanings, it's hardly a surprise that he wasn't a big contributor to Brandeis.</p>
<p>Deispremed, you have confirmed my premise. "with the lowest one being "no recommendation"--effectively ending your chances of being a doctor. It's a cruel system in general because they trash a lot of people's applications rather than trying to get everybody in somewhere."
"probably close to two-thirds of "freshman pre-meds" never end up applying". </p>
<p>I will state unequivocably, that some, if not many of these discouraged two-thirds of freshman pre-meds, would have been offered support and encouragement by other colleges and succeeded in fullfilling their desire
to become physicians.</p>
<p>In fairness to the school (maybe it's just because I like to play devil's advocate sometimes)...</p>
<p>I think "no recommendation" is rarely, if ever, officially given out. People with really crappy grades either quit on their own with little or no prodding, and those who still try to make it will be told this is what they can expect, and then they of course give up. I doubt anybody who's told they will be "not recommended" in their recommendation letter will still bother applying at that point. Or they may choose to collect their own individual recs and not use the pre-health board (although generally med schools want to know why you didn't get a board letter if your school has a board). Or of course you may have the occasional racist, criminal, etc. who doesn't deserve a rec anyway.</p>
<p>You're right, there probably are a few quitter pre-meds who may have stuck it out at other schools, and possibly succeeded. I don't know how much you know about the Brandeis system, but by far the most common reason quitting is because people hate the classes, labs, and workload, not because they're directly and personally discouraged by any faculty or staff. (True story: I met a Brandeis grad, currently in med school, who had a professor tell her she wasn't good enough to be a doctor. I think she came back to campus just to give him the finger.) Going back to the point, though, a lot of these Brandeis quitters may have gotten more support elsewhere but still might not get admitted to medical school. So I guess when it all comes down to it, Brandeis is doing what it does because they want to have the highest "acceptance rate" they can publish without a bald-faced lie.</p>
<p>But Scidoc, what's your story? Did you come to Brandeis, or know someone who did? I wouldn't expect someone who didn't have a bad experience with the school to spend time bashing it.</p>
<p>I am a physician. I did not attend Brandeis. Someone close to me was treated shabbily by Brandeis in a serious time of need some time ago.
More recently, I have observed bright students not succeed as pre-meds at Brandeis. How can I explain to you in a non-cynical way how unfair the process is for selecting medical school candidates? By choosing a school with "grade deflation", and a lack of sincere faculty encouragement, many qualified candidates will give up. I am not alone in this opinion. Competition among students produces anxiety ridden, lousy doctors. The real work doesn't begin until medical school.
My opinion is limited to pre-med students.</p>
<p>Wasn't aware that Brandeis pre-meds walked around with a sign reading "Pre-med: Fail Me!" </p>
<p>Lots of bright students at lots of schools don't succeed as pre-meds and it has more to do with the kids themselves than the schools. And life isn't fair. Deal with it!</p>
<p>i don't think there is a college out there that doesn't have a lot more kids coming in thinking they are "pre-med" than there are even a year later. and when you have a selective school, all those entering kids will enter thinking they have what it takes to make it through to med school -- a good number of them are destined for disappointment -- no matter what school they go to.</p>
<p>you know what - that's ok - the fact that a kid thought they wanted to be a doctor when they were 16 years old doesn't mean that this is what they should really end up doing with their life. and college is a great time for them to find that out.</p>
<p>And the rest of us are better off with docs representing the survival of the fittest!</p>
<p>Unfortunately, this philosophy, that the highest GPA undergraduates will make the best physicians is a falacy. Creative minds are weeded out. Surgical skills and ingenuity are not GPA related. </p>
<p>The lack of humility and sensitivity displayed by many is truely painful to read. Medical education is a gift to be bestowed upon the most dedicated and capable. As the majority of applicants are capable, other criteria such as dedication, selflessness and altruism are key.</p>
<p>Bush fils announces extension of his education initiatives: "No Pre-Med Left Behind."</p>
<p>On the condition that these pre-meds, when they become doctors, sign a pledge to vote Republican, and smile while they bend over and take it in the you-know-what so insurance and pharmaceutical companies can rob everybody blind, both patients and physicians.</p>
<p>Interesting perspective there, deispremed. Some would put doctors on the other side of your equation.</p>
<p>A lot of doctors will tell you the practice of medicine was much more profitable in the past, not only financially but emotionally. They were better compensated for their work, and they didn't have the insurance company functionaries, most of whom have no real medical expertise, tell them exactly how their patients should be treated, and substituting the cheapest treatment for the most effective one so the insurance companies could have extra money for shareholders, advertising, and hiring extra employees whose sole job is to screen out the sick people who are in worse need of insurance. Physicians who kill themselves for a dozen years or more (college, med school and then low-paid, long-hours residency) didn't get into the business so they could watch their patients be refused care by their insurance and then get sicker and die.</p>
<p>"Some who would put doctors on the other side of the equation" might want to do a little research. I don't think you'll find too many people who say doctors are better off now than they were in previous generations. Except maybe the ones who own hospitals (like Bill Frist) or work for the insurance companies.</p>
<p>Old chicken and egg question, there, deispremed, as to who, doctors or insurance companies, is responsible for the high cost of medical care. Those that pay for it don't much care whose pocket it goes into. Not much sympathy for physicians pleading poverty.</p>
<p>The high cost of medical care is due to better health technology and pharmaceuticals. Much of it is very expensive. When a doctor writes a prescription he/she doesn't sell the drug. Labs are the ones who get the bulk of the money for blood tests, etc. And doctors also have to now pay for extra administrative staff to do all the insurance paperwork and fight for payment.</p>
<p>Plus doctors have to work hard and deal with a lot of crap from all sides. It's simple economics--if doctors barely scraped by, you'd find that not enough talented individuals would go into medicine and we'd all be worse off. You can already see this problem with teaching. Teachers don't make good salaries (along with not getting enough respect from society) and therefore we have a major teaching shortage. If you're going to have to pay close to half a million dollars for college and med school, and then work for 4-6 years at an hourly salary that's maybe twice the minimum wage (far lower than even a teacher's pay by the hour), altruism just won't cut it. If you had to have brain surgery, would you want a surgeon who's disgruntled from working long hours and in hundreds of thousands of debt, and who may not be the smartest guy around because nobody else wanted the job?</p>