<p>I concur with oMoono…for your daughter’s sake, let it go. Bitterness will not help her in her future endeavors. Daughter 1 is a JR. and WM. Daughter 2 waitlisted. It was a huge blow, but life goes on.</p>
<p>just to clarify, i am in no way saying that that is definitively why i got in. it was just my initial thought and, honestly, i have no idea exactly why i was accepted instead of any other equally or more qualified candidate, such as your daughter. i empathize with her- i was wait listed from a significant number of my top schools and rejected from my “dream school” as well. i was not expecting this acceptance in the least, but i am very grateful for this great opportunity. i’m sorry if i offended anyone in any way by my comment.</p>
<p>If your daughter wants a career in physical therapy - a very smart choice, since we boomers will need ever-increasing amounts of it - W & M could not have offered her what she is looking for. Is her interest in PT recent? I don’t understand why W & M would have been on her list, had she known at application time.</p>
<p>W & M’s interview process is both elective and evaluative. Even at schools that strive to offer every applicant an interview, the interview is not a significant factor in admissions compared to the GPA, curriculum, and standardized test scores. W & M’s common data set ranks the interview as a “considered” factor in admissions, while the others are categorized as “very important.” I think you can let go of the idea that her interviewer somehow spoiled her chance to be admitted. (Though he was not a good choice to interview other students if he failed to respond to her later email question.)</p>
<p>Your accomplished d was one of many accomplished applicants. Many other applicants were rejected with the same stats and impressive level of ECs. Were the other students you mention the only ones accepted at W & M from her high school? Was her GC able to show you her high school’s past record of admissions at W & M for students in her SAT/ACT range? W & M’s SAT 25th percentile for admitted students in 2009 was 1240; ACT, 27. Your d’s stats put her in the middle 50th percentile, but toward the 25th. It’s more common for students to be rejected in that range, but even students with 1500-plus scores are rejected. (And I believe they now consider the writing portion of the SAT, as well.)</p>
<p>All of us know how it hurts to see our children rejected. I’m not too fond of Duke for waitlisting one of my kids, whose stats were better than the boys they admitted from her high school. But after a month or two, and especially when she was so thrilled to be at the school she enrolled at, I could see the logic in their decision. It’s natural to feel anger and even bitterness - but as the other posters have said, please let it go. Even if W & M erred in not admitting her, that doesn’t make it smarmy or self-indulgent.</p>
<p>frazzled1</p>
<p>I never said that her being denied made them smarmy or self indulgent, it is the image that they create of themselves being helpful, happy, working their rear ends off people trying to make sure they get to know and evaluate each applicant. At the end of the day it comes down to making the cuts based on “objective” criteria, the standardized tests, GPA, gender, race, instate or out of state. Look at the numbers, 14K applicants, everyone read twice, board discussions of about 20 or 30% of the group, roughly 12 AC’s. You think they can do all that in the 6 months. There are many other schools that are much more direct about their product and their methodology. The state of Virginia could save allot of money having a computer do the selections based on a multivariant analysis program. </p>
<p>And I know full well the stated weight of the interview. My note described more of the tone we encountered which could be a tell tale of the culture at the office. </p>
<p>In regard to PT, W&M has a Kinesiology degree which is classic feeder to 4+3 programs.</p>
<p>As far as letting it go there is nothing to let go, I only wrote this to make sure folks have all the opinions about W&M. As all adults know who have gone to college, the issue of where you attended will take up next to nothing of your time later on. </p>
<p>For - omoono</p>
<p>All of my daughter’s courses were honors courses throughout high school. Her school has only one curriculum, there are no basket weaving electives to be taken which is why she went there to have the most interesting and demanding courses. Kids drop out all the time to bulk up their cums for college.</p>
<p>Good Luck to all the students and Parents</p>
<p>“W&M Admissions isn’t quirky the are epitome of smarmy and self indulgent.”</p>
<p>Seems to me, you did say that. You have no other comparison other than your daughter’s rejection. Kines 4+3 seems a long way to go when she’s accepted to a 6 year DPT program.</p>
<p>Sallies, you seem to suggest that you were misled in some way. The range of scores of admitted students are clear. </p>
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<p>I can see being pleasantly surprised to be admitted with those scores, but not shocked if you’re not. Moreover, they no doubt were able to admit kids with higher scores this year than in the past. </p>
<p>Also, don’t assume you or your kids know others’ scores. Kids fudge on scores all the time and, for various reasons, report scores lower than they are. I know it’s hard for score obsessed CC parents to believe, but some will make up scores closer to the person to whom they are talking or that more closely match their friends.</p>
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<p>Ummm … my mistake?</p>
<p>Selective colleges do practice holistic admissions. There are kids with 95th percentile SATs, 6 or more APs (all 5s, too), and #1 class rankings who are denied at top schools - including W & M. Sometimes the school is just looking for something the applicant isn’t. And applicants who aren’t excellent standardized test takers are at a disadvantage at any top school that isn’t SAT-optional.</p>
<p>momray </p>
<p>For the second time, my comment was about my perception of the W&M Admission Staff and the earlier post by “radicalistic” about how someones essay might have tickeled the “quirky humor that characterizes W&M, at least in my opinion” and been the difference in being admitted.</p>
<p>Fair comment, by “radicalistic” and maybe true but my opinion is that W&M is a lot more cut and dried about their decisions then they would like folks to believe. This is based on both subjective and objective evidence.</p>
<p>As far as cartera45 is concerned I was in no way misled by the facts in the data set availble on W&M’s web site regarding test scores and other admissions statistics. Based on that, and only that, there was a pretty low chance my D would get admitted. It was always a stretch school from a Std score prespective. Just tell the Admissions Offfice to tone down the videos and blog entries about its not all about the scores. As a Virginia taxpayer I would be happier to know that there was a minimum objective standard for admission to certain universities and anyone that didn’t have that was not eligible. Otherwise it’s a potential crapshoot and fraught with potential discrimination based on the subjective opinions of somebody hired to do a job in the admin office.</p>
<p>The most satifying discussion I have had recently was with an admissions officer at another school who used to be a purchasing agent for Westinghouse in her first career. Her school had minimum admission criteria for entrance to certain programs, and they awarded merit money strictly based on standardized test scores. The higher the scores the more money. You knew where you stood and assuming they were consistent, could accept it was fair across the board. </p>
<p>If Henry B. wants to play kick ball with his staff to build morale thats fine just don’t transpose it into some image that your staff is so hip and ultracool that they look beyond the scores and admit students based on their total package or qualities. You are projecting capabilities that are fraught with potential abuse when it comes to offering admission to a school that accepts state money.</p>
<p>frazzled1</p>
<p>Please don’t jump to conclusions and respond to what you think was in a post. There is no doubt that my energy behind this is generated by my D denial. But my points have been directed at the perception of the image the Admissions office wants to create for itself. Which was highlighted in “radicalistic”'s post about the reason he/she was accepted.</p>
<p>As far as high scoring, denied candidates are concerned, do you think it is fair that someone who has inferior credentials is admitted because an AC didn’t like the cut of their jib? There are laws against things like that in some countries.</p>
<p>So your evidence that they don’t engage in a holistic admissions process is that your daughter didn’t get admitted? Using a sampling of one is not very persuasive. Then you point out others with lower scores who got in. They may be the examples of the holistic admission policy that you seek. Complaining that your D was rejected because of scores and also complaining that others were admitted in spite of scores is inconsistent. </p>
<p>It is not all about the scores. If you read other posts about kids who were admitted or rejected, you will see that. Obviously, decisions are based on things other than scores, or everyone with her scores and lower would have been rejected and that didn’t happen.</p>
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<p>If a holistic admission process is used, then ipso facto, kids with scores lower than others will be admitted. You can’t have it both ways.</p>
<p>frazzled1</p>
<p>Please don’t jump to conclusions and respond to what you think was in a post. There is no doubt that my energy behind this is generated by my D denial. But my points have been directed at the perception of the image the Admissions office wants to create for itself. Which was highlighted in “radicalistic”'s post about the reason he/she was accepted.</p>
<p>As far as high scoring, denied candidates are concerned, do you think it is fair that someone who has inferior credentials is admitted because an AC didn’t like the cut of their jib? There are laws against things like that in some countries.</p>
<p>I pointed to two kids with higher scores that got in and a Lebanese student with lower scores that met other profile criteria.</p>
<p>
I’m sorry - just to be clear, did you mean they were admitted because an AC did like the cut of their jib? I’m not following - wouldn’t applicants be more likely to be denied in the case you mention?</p>
<p>I agree with cartera. A holistic admissions approach is beneficial to those students with lower SATs and GPAs than most of the applicant pool. The staggering differences in high school curricula and grading policies make it difficult for any school’s admissions department to decide that students should be admitted on the strength of GPAs alone. A student like sallies’ d, with such excellent ECs, would have a better chance at a school with holistic admissions than at a school that admitted by mathematical formula, unless SATs were discounted. </p>
<p>Since the OP has mentioned that W & M is taxpayer-supported several times, let’s add for the benefit of newcomers to the school that Virginia funded 14 percent of the current budget and will certainly fund less next year. In exchange for that support, W & M admits a class that is comprised of 65 percent Virginians and 35 percent OOS students, who pay a large additional amount for the same education and thereby help the school make ends meet (and remain as affordable as it is for in-staters).</p>
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<p>Do you believe that this student is an example of holistic admissions?</p>
<p>I was quite surprised that I was accepted at William and Mary; but it’s not like URM’s get automatic acceptances… </p>
<p>Decision:ACCEPTED</p>
<p>STATS:</p>
<p>-SAT: 690 CR/ 600 M / 710 W
-SAT IIs: 650 French with Listening, 730 US History
-ACT: Did not take
-GPA 3.5- AP and honors courses
-Rank: School doesn’t rank,
-Other stats: Selected to (and took) college sophomore-level US History course at the National Institute of American History and Democracy at The College of William and Mary this summer…which may have factored into my admission; </p>
<p>SUBJECTIVE</p>
<p>-Essays: excellent
-Teacher Recs: excellent, good, good
-Counselor Rec: very good
-Hook (if any): upward trend, URM (aa male), excellent essays</p>
<p>LOCATION/PERSON</p>
<p>-State or Country: NJ
-School Type: highly competitve competitive private
-Ethnicity: African American
-Gender: Male
-Major Strength/Weakness: strength: Extracurriculars, SAT scores, Essay/ weakness: GPA
-Why you think you were accepted/rejected/waitlisted: GPA - upward trend</p>
<p>OTHER FACTORS</p>
<p>-Extra-curriculars: Tech Editor of school newspaper, started and continued fund for orphanage in africa, 4 years varsity/club fencing, peer mentor, member and soloist for school band and men’s acapella choir, city harvest volunteer, lifeguard; 4 years of camp counseling; VP of school international club; 3 years teaching fencing to kids; </p>
<p>-Comments: I had a fairly witty poem as my 500-word personal essay: </p>
<p>I am more than 500 words.</p>
<p>I sing, but dont dance. The saxophone is my romance.</p>
<p>Im 18, havent you heard?</p>
<p>In Hamlet, Id probably play Rosencrantz</p>
<p>E flat is my favorite key</p>
<p>Dont have a favorite song,</p>
<p>I really love history</p>
<p>Not like Gibsons Patriot, that was just wrong.</p>
<p>I know my way around computers</p>
<p>Being quite technologically adept</p>
<p>Im also a French tutor</p>
<p>Cest un fait vraiment correct</p>
<p>I havent been to Asia</p>
<p>Or South America, by the way</p>
<p>I hope these facts dont faze ya</p>
<p>I know Ill get there, someday.</p>
<p>Im not sure how far I am in the journey of education</p>
<p>Every day seems like a new beginning</p>
<p>In the midst of this situation</p>
<p>My education is neverending</p>
<p>College to most, is a place to grow</p>
<p>And learn from ones surroundings</p>
<p>But I truly want to go</p>
<p>To a place with an intellectual grounding</p>
<p>This place to me seemed hard to find</p>
<p>A place with such a great vibe</p>
<p>But after NIAHD opened my mind</p>
<p>The solution is, the Tribe.</p>
<p>A place where history winds its way</p>
<p>and pervades ones intellectual yearning</p>
<p>Where classes had speakers of past days</p>
<p>Of the era where good Dolley witnessed the burning</p>
<p>From every trip to a war site</p>
<p>With the knowledgeable and entertaining Professor Whit .</p>
<p>To every Colonial Dance Night</p>
<p>William and Mary seems to be a perfect fit</p>
<p>So I hope that you, infamous admissions</p>
<p>Will be able to rightly see</p>
<p>Among the multitude of submissions</p>
<p>The person who really is me.</p>
<p>No, Why would she be, because she isn’t Caucasian?</p>
<p>Actually, Sallies, I’d concur that a bad admissions person can make an impression that is nearly indelible. When I applied to Mt. Holyoke over 20 years ago, the admissions woman yawned throughout my interview as I earnestly described my music studies at my small Catholic high school, then at the end of the interview, practically salivated over the next applicant whom she apparently “summered” near in the same village in Cape Cod. (Her words, not mine.) And her name was actually Bitsy.</p>
<p>My daughter wants to try to go to the summer engineering program there and I’m having a really hard time getting past that initial impression of the place, even though it was so very long ago. Because unfortunately, it’s the only first-hand experience I’ve had with the place – and it was so very, very bad.</p>
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<p>If she was admitted with lower scores than your daughter, then obviously there is no magic cut off for scores and, therefore, other factors were considered. Isn’t that the definition of holistic admissions - considering attributes other than just scores and GPA? </p>
<p>I assume Lebanese is Caucasian.</p>
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<p>It is well documented that W&M goes “beyond the scores”. However, this is not code for “we let in all the students with below average (for W&M) scores.”</p>
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<p>There is no minimum. Is that hard to understand?</p>
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<p>lower tier schools can offer merit money based on scores. Top schools cannot do that. They look at more than scores. They HAVE to.</p>
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<p>Your daughter didn’t get accepted. That doesn’t mean that everything the admissions office says is wrong. 71% of the applicants weren’t accepted, some of them I’m sure had better applications than your daughter. That’s the way it goes. That’s why you apply to a bunch of colleges. Qualified applicants get turned down AT EVERY SINGLE SCHOOL.</p>
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<p>My first impressions of W&M was through a couple of students working in the admissions office. And, I have to be honest, they were not good impressions. Worst was the snippy little martinet in the admissions office who audibly groaned at every request, who rolled his eyes so often he looked like a slot machine, who so clearly hated his job and everyone that came through the door, it really made me question what we were doing there.</p>
<p>Fortunately, we were able to overcome that initial impression. But no doubt there’s someone out there who crossed W&M off their list because of that guy. </p>
<p>There were other schools with behaviors, usually from students, but sometimes from professional staff, that were boorish and insufferable, from Ivy League to top LAC’s. From drunken, hung-over, badly disheveled/unwashed, and/or 30-minutes-late student guides, to disdainful, smug, rude, and arrogant staff - and the more highly-ranked the school, the more likely someone would be offensive, it seemed to me. Their attitude seemed to be they didn’t really care if they put you off, because there were 100 more waiting to take your place. </p>
<p>But you have to understand the context - that one person, perhaps having a bad day, probably doesn’t represent the school accurately - but they <em>do</em> represent the school, and the off-handed interview Sallies’ daughter experienced should be viewed by the administration office as a slight, both to the daughter, and to the school.</p>