<p>tinamay, what post of soozievt’s are you referring to that you don’t agree with? I think soozievt has said that there is no academic “cut off,” per se, but that students whose scores and stats are closer to the standard or who exceed the standard have a better chance of admission (provided their audition is outstanding, too) than would a student with a fabulous audition and way, way lower than average stats. That makes sense. I know kids who are enormously talented and presumably did great auditions but who had low test scores and not great grades and they were not admitted. I personally don’t think soozievt was trying to discourage anyone from applying but rather was only trying to tell people to be realistic. And I have to say that if NYU is your dream school and you are not a pretty strong student, academically (or at least a really hard worker), you would struggle if you did end up getting admitted, because at NYU/Tisch you have to take a decent amount of academic classes and you have to be able to handle the work. So getting in the door is only the first step. I say that not to discourage anyone, but to give them information. One thing my D said recently is what a joy it is to attend classes (especially acting classes) with such an informed, smart group of people.</p>
<p>This doesn’t relate to my daughter at all, as she has already accepted her admission to a different program and NYU is not her dream school. But, I have read many posts where Susan has said (and this is not a quote) that you wouldn’t believe some of the kids that come to me who are nowhere in NYU’s ballpark but still want to apply. I just don’t think anyone should ever be discouraged. If NYU, or any other school is their dream school for that matter, there are ways to get in eventually if the talent and drive is there. (Remember Rudy and Notre Dame? That was a true story.) That’s all I’m saying. In no way do I want to get into a negative discussion about this, I just want kids out there to have hope. Lots of kids could come on here and read some of these posts and get discouraged from applying. That just shouldn’t happen.</p>
<p>Tina, we just may disagree and that’s fine. I believe in reaching high. I believe in applying to reach schools where your stats are below the average of admitted stats to that college and where the acceptance rate is also low. Everyone should have some schools that are reaches on their college list (as long as the list is balanced with matches and safeties). However, I would not opt to apply to what I call FAR REACHES whereby the college accepts NOBODY with that person’s stats. Of course, someone is free to apply if they still want to but there really should be a level of realistically viewing a situation. I run into some highly unrealistic people. I am thankful that they took the advice to add schools more in their ballpark because had they not taken that advice, they would have landed with no acceptances.</p>
<p>I have the stats of admitted students to every college, including NYU. They will tell you what percentage of students who were admitted have X SAT score, for example. Well, if you have an SAT score where either 0% of the admitted students were admitted with that score or only 1% of all those admitted (remember that is 1% of the 25% admitted to the university itself…and also the overall university, not Tisch or any BFA for that matter), and added to that you have less than a 3.0 GPA, are ranked below the top 50% at your high school (0% of their admitted students have a class rank that low), and where you have not taken any Honors or AP courses, etc. etc. etc., your chances of being admitted are NIL. Time and money would be better spent in creating a balanced and appropriate list for yourself. </p>
<p>I see many people who go about creating a college list simply with “which schools offer MT?” and that’s their list. That is not how to go about it. I have indeed met students who have NO chance to get into Tisch. I would be dishonest in telling them otherwise. They are free to apply of course. I assess their odds and encourage them to create an appropriate list which indeed includes REACH schools (where their stats fall below the average of admitted stats to that school and the school also has a low admit rate) that is balanced. But a reach school needs to be “reachable”. There needs to be SOME CHANCE of being admitted. Every year, people apply to schools like Harvard who have absolutely NO chance. Same with Tisch. Those whose stats fall below the average of admitted stats should SURELY apply. If a student is not REMOTELY in the ballpark, I would encourage a more appropriate selection of schools. I have had students come to me with Cs and Ds and below 3.0 GPA and no Honors or AP classes and with a combined SAT on the CR and M of 750 or even 950 and are ranked in the bottom half of their HS class and they want to go to Tisch. They are not going to get in, sorry. If you have stats that are under simply a little below the average of admitted stats, of course you have a chance to get in!!! You have a lesser chance if your stats fall below but you still have a chance! But if your stats are such where 0% are admitted with those stats, you well, don’t have a chance. This is particularly true at a school with a very low admit rate that is turning away kids in droves who do meet the requirements of admissions. I’m talking about very selective schools now. And I am not talking about simply stats below the average of admitted students (that simply puts the school in “reach” category and everyone should have reaches!). I’m talking where there is NO chance, and where the student doesn’t remotely come close to any student who has been admitted to that university. </p>
<p>By the way, getting into CAP21 is more of an approx. 6% admit rate. Getting into an acting studio is a higher admit rate.</p>
<p>tina, I agree that it is very, very important to have hope and to dream and to dream big! Definitely. </p>
<p>But when it comes to college admissions, there are certain realities to contend with. That means that (and I am pulling these figures out of thin air!) if a fabulously talented high school senior has, let’s say, a combined SAT of 1100 (for reading, math and writing) and a straight C average in regular (not honors, and not AP classes), that student probably doesn’t have a very good chance of getting into a school such as NYU/Tisch, where there is an academic bar to be met. The same talented student could audition for CMU and if his audition is fabulous and the faculty loves him, he could very well get in.</p>
<p>But as a paid college counselor, soozievt’s job is to advise students (using the knowledge she has and experience) of the likelihood of admission to college programs. In the same way that she probably wouldn’t tell a kid who has a 2.0 GPA to apply to Johns Hopkins because that kid has always dreamed of going to Hopkins, she likewise would be very careful, I imagine, in cautioning a kid with the same stats about NYU. That’s all I meant.</p>
<p>I don’t think any adult on this list is in the business of squashing kids’ dreams. On the contrary, most of us try to encourage kids.</p>
<p>One other thing, is that I am not trying to dash hopes. What is important is a level of realism in creating an appropriate college list, while still reaching for one’s dreams. More success with college admissions will result. The last thing I want to see is someone left with no college options. I have seen that. It isn’t pretty. I have seen people who have ignored the advice of what is realistic. Building a college list involves dreaming and reaching with a mix of realism thrown in. That is a recipe for success in college admissions. </p>
<p>I also see people who have no clue how competitive it is to get into a BFA in MT and the extremely low admit rates (even if talented and with a good academic profile) and are crushed if they get any rejections rather than expecting rejections as a very likely part of this process and building a list that will yield SOME acceptances. It would be very rare to get into all the schools on their list in this very competitive process where the schools and programs have extremely low admit rates. And that’s for kids who are appropriate candidates for the schools on their list. The odds are extremely terrible if they do not come to the table with the requisite profile to even be considered at the schools on their list in the first place.</p>
<p>Another thing is that this information is published. So, you don’t have to guess that “I have some chance to be admitted”. If 0% are admitted with your SAT or ACT score and 0% are admitted with your class rank, just as an example, you can dream you’ll be the exception but the published data speaks for itself. This information is available (and I am not talking of the average stats of admitted students but the percentage admitted at certain academic levels). I show a candidate this data vis a vis their profile. It is in black and white. I am not guessing their chances.</p>
<p>Take Harvard…they accept something like 8% (I have to look up the exact figure but that is very close)…while many many more of the applicants to Harvard than 8% have the required stats and qualifications to be admitted to Harvard, there is a small percentage of applications on the Harvard pile at the admissions office that can be skimmed off the top as not remotely in the ballpark. This happens at schools like NYU as well. Those are the applicants to which I am referring above.</p>
<p>Since this is a Tisch thread…another issue is that even if you are the most talented kid artistically since sliced bread, the audition cannot overweigh the academics like it might at some other schools because the academic admissions counts 50% of the admissions decision. That is important for applicants to know as this differs from many of the other BFA in MT program schools where the audition may count more than the academic review (but where the academic review certainly still counts!). There are some BFA programs where the acceptance to the university is separate from the BFA program.</p>
<p>Also, NYU is a university with an acceptance rate to the UNIVERSITY ITSELF (not the BFA program!) of 25% and so most schools with an acceptance rate in that range are reachy odds academically even if you have stats remotely in the ballpark. When one’s stats are not anywhere near the ballpark of admitted students and added to that the university has a very low acceptance rate, such as this particular university, all that must be considered in building a college list. </p>
<p>Each student’s list needs to be appropriate to THEM. It is not like every MT kid should have the same college list. Unfortunately, some create a college list where the only criteria is that the schools offer MT. This is not a good way to go about building a college list that is appropriate or that will yield results.</p>
<p>Of course, every college list must include non-audition safety schools and a mix of others. However, I must say that some kids could get discouraged from applying to dream schools because their stats are somewhat low for that particular school. And, my answer is, “You never know!” Some kids may not understand what “in the ballpark” means for each particular school and they may miss out on a great opportunity if they are frightened away by posted stats. I know of a girl who got into the University of Michigan with a very, very low ACT score while many kids in the high 20’s and low 30’s were wait-listed or denied. She was nowhere near the “ballpark.” This was her dream school and what if someone told her not to bother to apply? “You never know!” As long as the kids have well-balanced college lists, then I believe they should still go after their dreams. I’ll admit, I, myself, am a dreamer. But, guess what? I’ve made all my dreams come true.</p>
<p>Someone whose stats are “somewhat low” should still apply to a school. But you can get your hands on published stats of what percentage of students were admitted with certain SATS (I’m not talking of just the MID RANGE) and what class rank, for example. If the school has published that 0% or 1% of the 25% that are accepted have been admitted with those stats, that is a different story all together. Also, you can’t go by someone who got in with a low ACT score when that is not the ONLY factor in admissions…sometimes if you have one thing that is low it can be compensated by other things are high…like GPA or demanding curriculum, etc. or even something like under represented minority. Also, what happens at one school is not like another. The overall acceptance rate to the University of Michigan (the university…not the BFA) is much higher than for New York University and so it is not as selective in that way. Also, for NYU to get into the BFA, academics counts 50% of the decision where that is not the case at many other BFA schools. </p>
<p>Again, I am not talking of the posted “mid range” stats of a college because colleges DO accept 25% of their admitted class below that range. I am talking of those with stats ACROSS THE BOARD (NOT JUST IN ONE AREA) who do not fall within the range of ANY accepted students to that university…not simply falling into the lower 25% of the admitted student range. </p>
<p>For instance, just talking of the SAT…only 1% of those admitted to NYU (that doesn’t mean 1% of applicants but rather 1% of the 25% admitted to NYU) have a CR SAT below 500. Same with the M SAT. 99% of those admitted are in the top 50% of their HS class. </p>
<p>I have had kids come to me with a CR or a M SAT score below 500 and who are not in the top 50% of their HS class, and who took the bare min. of a HS curriculum, and who have a GPA below 3.0. These students are NOT going to get into NYU. To lead them to believe otherwise would be dishonest. After an honest assessment, the decision is THEIRS as to where to apply. </p>
<p>I will add that in my honest opinion, no matter how amazingly talented a student may be as a singer, dancer, and actor, if he/she has done poorly (I mean quite poorly) academically, he or she will not be able to handle the rigors of a BFA program which requires a certain level of motivation, work ethic, responsibility, time management, etc. that is likely lacking if they were unable to take a challenging HS curriculum or perform at a basic level. Besides that, they will not be able to handle the academic component in a very selective university. </p>
<p>Lastly, considering how ultra competitive BFA in MT Programs are to get into, and where they are turning away numerous talented kids who are artistically qualified, if they can find students who have the artistic talent and a certain level of academic talent (above their min. threshhold so to speak), they have no reason to take someone who is talented but can’t meet a basic academic min. for that school. They don’t NEED to, in other words. </p>
<p>Students who have virtually no chance of being admitted certainly can apply but they should apply going into it knowing the odds and planning accordingly. I am not for squashing dreams. I am for building a list that fits the applicant, including reach schools. </p>
<p>Lastly, I don’t know if it is a good idea to fixate on a “dream school” in such a highly competitive process, let alone the fact that many of these programs are excellent and a student could be happy at more than one place. Sometimes a student is fixated on a “name school” because that’s all they know and they haven’t truly delved into the many fine options out there where they actually stand a chance of being admitted. Students should go for their dreams and their reaches…even if MT admissions is very difficult…but their list should consist of schools within grasp, even if the grasp has low odds. But if a school is not remotely in grasp, they should find schools that are. Reach schools should be on every list. Out of Reach schools…not really. </p>
<p>I can think of a couple of cases where the student had an unrealistic list of colleges and I urged adding a certain school to the list and that was the only school they got into and I am so glad that they took the advice. I would find NO joy in saying “told you so,” had they not been admitted anywhere. There needs to be a level of reality in this process with assessing the odds. The odds are very very very tough even IF you have the academic and artistic profile to get in. If you are sorely lacking in one of those two areas or even both (and I don’t mean just a little lower), you must select the right list for YOU in order to yield results. </p>
<p>Do you tell a kid with a 1000 CR/M SAT score, lower 60% of their HS class, with a GPA of 3.0, no Honors or AP classes to apply to Harvard? They certainly can. They will NOT be admitted.</p>
<p>I agree with almost everything you say. I just don’t want kids who may be under the ballpark, but still who have a slight chance, to give up and not apply. Some kids could look at the mid-range and not realize that 25% fall under that range. Of course, poor students will not get accepted, no matter how talented they are. But, there are many good students who do not fall in the mid-range. Some of these may be discouraged from applying, but just may beat the odds and get into their schools if they tried.</p>
<p>Just to restate…kids who fall below the mid range CAN and DO get accepted. After all, that is what mid range means. Twenty-five percent of those accepted fall below the mid range of standardized test scores. Often those kids have something strong on their profile to balance the test scores out. Also, those who fall below the mid range are accepted at a lower rate of admission (so harder odds). They SHOULD apply though consider it quite reachy since the school ALSO has a very low acceptance rate (making it reaching for most students). But again, there is published information of what percent of admitted students fall below a certain level and if barely any are accepted at that level…such as test scores or GPA or class rank…that puts the school out of reach. I gave an example above for NYU’s stats of admitted students who have below a 500 on the SAT subtests or are in the lower half of their HS class. Those are not accepted. Add in the acceptance rate (selectivity) of the university in assessing the odds, not just published stats. </p>
<p>When students build a college list, it should not be randomly built based on schools they “like.” It should be carefully built to have academic reach, match and safeties, as well as a range of artistic selectivity. As well, BFA candidates should have one or two non-audition academic safeties (not simply a BA but one that is a sure bet academically). </p>
<p>For schools with very very low admit rates, it is very difficult to get in even when you have the minimum or even maximum qualifications. If you fall below the bare minimum, that school is really out of reach and not a good use of time and money.</p>
<p>I have been following this discussion and I just want to add that NYU was a reach and a dream school for my daughter. But she had a very balanced list of schools to fall back on. She did get in and I have to add that for her academically it has been challenging to say the least. She is the type of student that has to get good grades or she gets very stressed out. I don’t think people realize how hard it is to do a BFA, be in shows and still do well in your academics. When she tells me what her day is like I can’t beleve it! If I knew how hard it was going to be I would of had her go some place else, but she is loving it and doing so well. Both parents and students should realize that NYU is not only about getting in but thriving and growing when you are there, My daughter would never trade her experience at NYU for the world but for me it has been a little stressful.</p>
<p>They say that theatre kids often do the best in school. And, those who are the busiest often do better than those who have tons of extra time on their hands. When my daughter was a little girl, she was performing 8 shows per week for months at a time in professional theatres and she still managed to get A’s. I think some kids thrive on being busy and challenging themselves, even if it is difficult.</p>
<p>Tina, I have met two kinds of theater applicants, generally speaking. There are truly kids like you mention who thrive on being busy with insane schedules and time manage and have the strong work ethic and manage to do well in school at the same time. These are students, by the way, who I find keep up with the college application process. I notice a DIRECT correlation with the kind of student they are and how they handle this admissions process. </p>
<p>I also come across students with poor academic profiles. I will hear that the reason they don’t do well in school is because they have been busy with shows and so on when other kids also have shows but manage to still do their schoolwork. I find that the ones with low academic profiles also have difficulty handling the admissions tasks, of which there are many and have to be prodded and nagged overly so (not just a little bit) and do not time manage. They will say they have a show but every student I work with has a show. I have wondered with certain kids that even if they do get accepted to a BFA, how they will handle the very intensity that such a program entails. I know what it entails as my kid is nearing the end of four years of it. If a HS kid can’t handle getting college essays done over many months because he/she has a show, etc. and can’t manage to get decent grades in HS, they are going to have a tough time managing the rigors of a BFA schedule that has school many more hours than HS and has shows that rehearse until very late at night and on weekends and has college level homework to boot. If they can’t time manage a bit in HS, they will have difficulty in these very demanding BFA programs. </p>
<p>I have a parent who told me that at the BOCO presentation this past weekend, which is a school where traditionally an academic profile can be very low and the student is still admitted and it is mostly conservatory with very little liberal arts, the admissions officers were telling applicants that they are going to be looking much closer at the academic profiles as they are finding a DIRECT correlation with the kind of student a kid has been and with how well he/she will succeed in a BFA program. So, even if a BFA program has no or very few academic liberal arts classes, it requires a certain kind of student who is motivated, can time manage, is prepared, has a strong work ethic, and so on. A student’s school record in HS says a lot about a student and who can handle the rigors of a BFA program. Could the student handle school and be in shows in HS? Same sort of thing, even if we are not talking taking math or French, etc. in a BFA program.</p>
<p>Again, I agree with you.</p>
<p>What would you say about a student that has extremely rigorous course load (All honors and Ap’s unless it wasn’t offered in a given subject area), great SAT scores (middle to upper 600’s in all subject areas including SAT II), great ACT Score (29), many extracurricular activities and awards (Ap scholar with honors, national achievement participant) including ALLOT of participation in theatre BUT, has an ok GPA and rank of about 3.5 weighted (maybe 3.3 or 3.2 unweighted) and upper 50% for rank?</p>
<p>NYU uses holistic admissions and so it is not simply numbers driven. We can’t possibly know your total picture…exactly what you took for courses, your essays, your recs, your activities and achievements and so on. So, nobody here can give you your exact chances. </p>
<p>A few things…
It will be favorable if you took the most rigorous courses available to you and it sounds like you have. Your SAT is not given exactly but it sounds like it may be “higher” than your ACT and if so, I would only submit the SAT Plus Subject Tests, and not your ACT. 75% of those admitted to NYU scored higher than you on the ACT. You could still get in with it but you are on the lower end of their midrange. I don’t know your exact SAT scores but you may be below at least 60% of those admitted to NYU. Again, still stand a chance. Your unweighted GPA is lower than the average admitted to NYU which is 3.63. A 3.2 or 3.3 might get in but the odds are lower with this GPA, but might be mitigated by a more demanding curriculum. Still stand a chance, but a lower chance with this GPA. As far as class standing, 69% of those admitted to NYU are in the top 10% of their HS class. 92% of those admitted are in the top 25%. You say you are in the top 50%. But if you are below the top 25%, your odds are reduced quite a bit as only 8% of those admitted to NYU fall below the top quarter of their HS class. Those are just statistics and not the whole of your qualifications. It is worth applying as you do have a chance of being admitted but your chances are lower than ballpark odds. It is OK to apply to Reach schools, as long as they are not out of Reach. NYU is likely a Reach for you academically (have no clue your artistic qualifications but the low acceptance rate into the BFA makes the artistic odds a “reach” for anyone), but it is not an “out of reach” for you.</p>
<p>soozievt…
my son applied ED at Tisch’s Clive Davis Program. His GPA is 3.7 and had took ACT twice…supersocre of 30…had a 35 in Math…
he’s an accomplished Blues Rock Guitarist who has played in a band that’s opened for major performers such as Derek Trucks of the Allman Brothers and Leslie West of Mountain. He’s appeared on several CD’s. He interned this summer at a NJ recording studio. His “portfolio submission” included a professionally prepared, 5 minute video of his Starland Ballroom performance opening for Derek Trucks. Two weeks ago he had a phone interview with 4 Clive Davis faculty members. </p>
<p>He’s completely focused on this NYU program. I’d welcome your input. Thanks</p>
<p>I’m not sure what sort of input I can give you. On the forum, I volunteer to answer general questions but don’t deal with individual cases really, which is what I do in my job. I don’t know if you are asking me to evaluate his chances? I would need far more information to do that…I gather lots from each student I work with in order to evaluate that. </p>
<p>You can see where your son’s basic stats fall in relation to the GPA and test score ranges for NYU pretty readily. GPA alone is not really enough as they examine the rigor of one’s courses in relation to the curriculum offered at one’s high school. And there is so much more to it that can’t be evaluated simply by a GPA and ACT score. Those are in the ballpark for NYU it seems but NYU is not numbers driven but looks at many factors, none of which I know about your son. </p>
<p>It sounds like your son has experience both as a musician and in a recording studio, both important in a recording arts applicant. It so happens that I am guiding my nephew in his admissions process for recording arts programs right now. He is also in NJ and in fact, I recognize the name of Starland Ballroom as that is a place he performed in with his rock band and is on his resume. It sounds like your son has the experience and put together a portfolio. He likely is in the ballpark. But ya know, these arts based programs are competitive and I have known talented kids to be rejected at very competitive programs even if qualified. But if they have the academic and artistic “goods”, they do get into SOME programs and so I am sure your son will. I can’t tell you if he’ll get into NYU. </p>
<p>I wish him lots of luck and let us know how it turns out. </p>
<p>One more thing…you say your son is completely focused on NYU’s program and my advice to ANYONE (even the most qualified kids in the land) is that when we are talking of very selective colleges and/or programs, one should never focus too much on any one single one. It is natural to have favorites but it is best to have a handful of favorites and not one single school which can be a set up for greater disappointment if that school does not come through. All should not be riding on one school. I hope your son has filed his apps and set up auditions and sent in portfolios to other schools and is not waiting until the NYU ED results come out. That is my advice…which I would say to anyone involved in competitive admissions. Your son surely stands a chance but should be more open minded about the options out there, beyond a “dream school.” I do have a daughter who went to Tisch and it was a first choice but she really stayed open to all the schools on her list and didn’t put her focus just into NYU in her admissions process and didn’t even do ED in fact. I have advised a student who applied to Tisch ED and while she did get in ED (was soooo happy), she had her 13 apps filed before the Tisch decision came out. I don’t know where else your son is applying but I know some of these programs had Dec. 1 deadlines or pre-screening CD’s and such. As I said, I have a nephew going for this same major right now.</p>