<p>daaaaad - We're not talking about schools keeping students just to keep their doors open - and no one is saying that evaluations aren't important along the way. Actually, it's been said repeatedly that that's expected. It's just that it seems to many that a more enlightened and educationally sound approach is to as carefully as possible select a first year class of 26 and then - as CMU and other top schools do - really nuture and work with those students over time. The senior year of high school is a year when many kids compete for spots in quality programs - clearly the DePaul rep on this board knows A LOT about the audition process and what to look for and what good candidates might offer. I agree that being in Chicago is more appealing for many kids than being in more isolated places so I can see where some kids would opt in and hope to make the cut, but daaaaad, your reasoning appears to me to be really backward. Of course the kids with the three year program ahead of them are getting a great deal. It's the seat-fillers in year one that are cheated. And it doesn't have to be this way. It's just a very established program that many wish would change. I agree with actressforsho here and continue to applaud ckp for her defense of the school and for her honest and clear continued explanations of her experience.</p>
<p>terriwtt - That is apples and oranges about Northwestern. It's a BA program and like you said you can still continue in your original major without losing any time or money if you don't get in for MT. You also still come out of it with a prestigious degree.</p>
<p>With all due respect, I don't think it is. If musical theater is the only direction my kid is willing to pursue (doesn't want to do straight acting or straight vocal performance) and she spends a year at Northwestern and doesn't make the MT certificate program at the end of her freshman or sophomore year, then with the logic argued here, they have just milked me of a lot of money when my daughter decides she has to go somewhere else to get MT training. I could argue that by not admitting students into the MT certificate program their freshman year, they're just stringing us along for the money, knowing some kids will at least come for a year and Northwestern can collect a good chunk of change. Yes, one of the options is she can continue in straight theater if she wants, but if she doesn't, then she either has to pick another major/transfer somewhere else/take a gap year, etc. It's like me telling a DePaul student who was cut, "Oh, you can stay at DePaul, but pick a major that you really don't want to study." And regarding the prestigious degree, I really don't care what the degree is or where it's from as long as my daughter has been able to pursue her passion, has been taught well, and is well-prepared to enter the world as a responsible adult. I would never advise her to stay somewhere because she will come out of it with a prestigious degree. Some people feel very strongly toward the kind of degree they're getting (BFA vs. BA vs. BM); my daughter and I don't - we want the place that will be the best match when it all comes down to the end next April and she either has acceptance(s) to auditioned programs or non-auditioned programs. </p>
<p>But if in that year, she has put her whole self forward and learned lessons she can carry throughout life (and doesn't make the MT program), then I'll never complain about the money I've spent, and I will continue to support her endeavors wherever they may take her. </p>
<p>I just have a hard time accepting that somewhere in the deep onclaves of Depaul's theater school, adminstrators and teachers are conspiring to keep a strict cut program so that they can have more money.</p>
<p>Regarding DePaul's mission to treat people with dignity - I would say that to treat someone with dignity, you yourself must have dignity. I'd say those who do not make the cut have the best opportunity provided to learn about what dignity means, how do you handle the adversities of life.</p>
<p>My line of thinking in the cut program wonders if it's not due to the nature of young adults who are 18 and 19. Some students come in at 18, very mature and ready to tackle the world. Some 18 year olds can be very talented, but lack maturity. That first year of college is such a test, and I'm sure that some 18 year olds who might initially have been on the more immature side, really buckle down and prove themselves. Others, who are also very talented, enter as average mature 18-year olds, but show little growth in that year. Perhaps DePaul uses this policy to address developmental issues and how they reflect on the ability of a student to progess in the next three years. I'm not saying I agree with it, or disagree with it - but it was certainly something I wondered about. Perhaps TheTheatreSchool could address this aspect.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't know if that answers you questions, but I tried.
[/quote]
The more I try to phrase questions clearly, the muddier they get! I should never be a lawyer. haha You answered most of it. Here are the ones you didn’t answer rephrased along with some others:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Did any of those you know who turned down SUNY Purchase, NCSA, CCM (for MT), Michigan (for MT), UM Guthrie, Boston University, Syracuse or Rutgers to go to DePaul get cut? </p></li>
<li><p>If any of those who turned down a school listed in question 1 got cut, was it something that was obviously coming because they had poor work habits or bad attitudes?</p></li>
<li><p>Did any of the students you know that got big scholarships get cut?</p></li>
<li><p>Are those federal grants your friends have?</p></li>
<li><p>How many students are waitlisted each year?</p></li>
<li><p>How many students usually come off the waitlist to get a full freshman BFA Acting class each year?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>You might not know the answers to 5 and 6 but Thetheaterschool should.</p>
<p>daaaaad - The schools we are talking about don't have the problems you mention. They only accept kids that have the ability to succeed in their programs in the first place and only as many as they can graduate and provide casting opportunities for. We are talking single digit acceptance rates here.</p>
<p>teriwtt - If you would argue that Northwestern was just stringing your daughter along, perhaps she should be looking at other schools that don't do it that way and go to a strictly MT school that doesn't have cuts. :)</p>
<p>actressfosho - who said she wasn't applying to auditioned programs? In fact, she has eight freshman based audition schools, one non-audition school (that academically is safe, but challenging for her), and Northwestern, which falls in between the other two, on her list. She has her reasons for applying to the schools she has chosen that are intrinsic to who she is, what she's accomplished, her academics, where she does (or doesn't) want to be geographically, etc. As I spoke of the maturity factor in my earlier post, a LOT can happen to my daughter in the next seven months before she has to make her final decision, and she wants to have options. That's why she has a wide range of possibilities.</p>
<p>For instance, as of today, we have no idea what will happen to our high school's theater production season for this next academic year. There are serious scheduling conflicts with show choir this year that haven't been there previously, and our theater director may have to pick and cast shows that work with the few students who do theater who aren't in show choir. At any given production, approximately 80% of his cast comes from students who are also in show choir. When it comes to the musical, that number goes up to 95%. If she doesn't have the opportunity to act as much this year due to show choir conflict, it may alter how she sees herself seven months from now. Hopefully an announcement will come tomorrow as to any compromise between the two activities.</p>
<p>The only thing that I could conceivably see happening that would throw everything out the window, is if she were to get an early acceptance to Emerson, which has been her first choice for over a year now. But because we know the odds, she has other options she feels good about, including Northwestern.</p>
<p>This is the best explanation of the cut policy that I have read - and it does harken back to economic motives, not specific to teachers and administrators wanting to bilk innocent parties, but to a need for a department with different needs to survive in an institution that doesn't differentiate among majors:</p>
<p>Babar;</p>
<p>Absent the offering of a legitimate difference of views by someone with knowledge, your link has to be the working supposition. As contrasted with some of the seriously delusional views of the world posted by a few people above. ;)</p>
<p>Wally</p>
<p>My son, who will be attending a BFA consrvatory program in the fall, wouldn't apply to DePaul, not because they cut people, but the way it is done. The school where he is going starts with 20 or so students and ands up with 8 to 12 historically, but they don't have a predetermined number to cut. His comment was that if you cut half of the 26 and you had an outstanding group, some deserving students get cut. At his school, if you are doing well and you work hard you will not get cut because of a numbers game. However, if you don't show progress as a performer you will be asked to leave. There is a big difference.</p>
<p>I am of the opinion that you do it because it must be difficult to determine the abilities coming in and you can pick 26 from a larger pool after working with them. While it sounds good, I think you are loosing out on a lot of talent, because while kids don't mind competing for spots, they don't like it to be a finite number.</p>
<p>Many kids who get into the top programs and are obviously talented, don't even apply to your school. I love Chicago, loved DePaul, but couldn't convince my son to even consider DePaul because of the large cuts.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many kids who get into the top programs and are obviously talented, don't even apply to your school. I love Chicago, loved DePaul, but couldn't convince my son to even consider DePaul because of the large cuts.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree and I know that to be a fact and it was one of my points of my post above. I am convinced that my D could not only get in but would easily survive the cuts. Yet..who would want to live in that world? The lame idea that this is a competitive world so be happy that you have (one year) three years of security (after the cut) is, well, lame. Every year you would see talented people get cut. And as to the other lame notion about Backstabbing. Okay lets agree that the powers that be are looking favorably at ensemble and disfavorably at back stabbing but give me a break that its all cool amongst a class where everyone knows (there is an elephant in the living room) and half of you are gone in a year or less)</p>
<p>Hey there, Wally. Just to clarify (and I hope I am understanding you here! :)), I don't think anyone suggested that all people are "cool" with being cut from a program, at DePaul or anywhere else where a cut system is in place. Do you mean to posit that a cut system would naturally result in kids jockeying for position, as they feel constantly insecure and unsure of their place in the ensemble/class? If so, I certainly would imagine that that is the case, though I have to respect the accounts of those who have been in that situation (such as the student who posted here). But then again, the kids who do choose to apply to DePaul (which has a reputation for excellence and is certainly prestigious and a proven program) presumably know about the cut system going in (and if they don't, it's their own fault ... students and their parents need to take responsibility for researching programs ahead of time) and forge ahead. It is their decision to make. Certainly such a system is not for everyone, and certainly intelligent, fair people can argue both sides of the equation. In the end, all that matters is that those who apply to and decide to attend a university with a cut system know what that means, going in.</p>
<p>I agree that you should know going in about the cuts. That's not the point. I was just saying that I believe they lose a lot of talented actors before they even start the audition process because of the way they choose to select their students. They obviously feel that by taking twice as many for the program in the first year and then cutting it in half for the last three years gives them a better group. I think it shows that they don't have confidence in their selection process and they do it at the expense of the students. Thank god all the programs don't do it the same way. The program and the student need to show a commitment to the school, it shouldn't be just 1 way.</p>
<p>Yes, actorsdad, I understand. Your points are good ones. Apparently, however, DePaul believes in its program, because they are not (to my knowledge!) announcing plans to alter their system. It is certainly your right -- and anyone else's! :) -- to try to convince the powers that be there that they are missing out on a number of really talented kids, and maybe they will listen. If enough people agree with you that the cut system is not a good one, for various reasons, the number of applicants will go down. Has that happened, New College Rep from TheTheatreSchool from DePaul? Or have applicants/auditionees gone up?</p>
<p>Obviously it is working for them, I just don't think its the best for the students. Their program has a great rep despite their meager facilities. The key for students is that they know what their getting into. If they don't mind, then good luck to them.</p>
<p>Hello all. I currently attend The Theatre School at DePaul, and after reading this thread I couldn't help but respond. I feel a bit insulted to read these posts claiming that DePaul loses a lot of 'the most talented' auditionees due to the cut system. But I kind of have to smile... because I know that anyone who really feels an interest in getting one of the best theatre educations would at least audition to see if they get ACCEPTED into a program. After all, it's hard to be picky about where you go to school if you aren't offered admission first. I know the cut makes people nervous, but if it's scaring you that much before you are even admitted into a program maybe acting isn't the best profession for you. These kids are going to auditioning for the rest of their lives, and deciding to always go the safe route isn't going to get them very far.</p>
<p>attagirl,</p>
<p>Wonderful post. I completely agree with you. I am having a very hard time understanding why people continue to pick scabs regarding this issue. If this kind of program is not what you deem "right" than so be it. Move on. BUT there are many students who find wouldn't blink twice at such a program...many would find this a challenge that the bar was set high. If they can afford it than great for them. It is a WONDERFUL program and I can not say that loud enough!! To each his/her own.</p>
<p>SUE aka 5pants</p>
<p>Lisa, you wrote;</p>
<p>
[quote]
If enough people agree with you that the cut system is not a good one, for various reasons, the number of applicants will go down. Has that happened?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Discernment and quality is the issue, not quantity.</p>
<p>Attagirl;</p>
<p>
[quote]
I feel a bit insulted to read these posts claiming that DePaul loses a lot of 'the most talented' auditionees due to the cut system.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It was not intended to insult you but it is a fact. </p>
<p>
[quote]
because I know that anyone who really feels an interest in getting one of the best theatre educations would at least audition to see if they get ACCEPTED into
DePaul
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Thats simply not true. There is a person who frequents CC who applied to 7 of the top conservatories and was accepted to every one in straight drama for this year. That person would not apply to DePaul for this reason. You also have two parents (me and actorsdad) who are committed to sending kids to top schools and we are telling you they will not bother applying to DePaul. This notion posted above that it is frequent that students who get accepted to Julliard, NCSA, Rutgers, CMU and the like are choosing DePaul is fallacy. </p>
<p>
[quote]
After all, it's hard to be picky about where you go to school if you aren't offered admission first.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not if your that good.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know the cut makes people nervous, but if it's scaring you that much before you are even admitted into a program maybe acting isn't the best profession for you.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Thats a lame argument that has been already addressed. Like they havent experienced competition already. They are applying to schools that let a third as many students in as DePaul who recieve more applications than they do and you are suggesting they are averse to competition.</p>
<p>Dont get me wrong. I hope you have a wonderful career and hope you enjoy your education. I have to say though that given this is your first post on the forum that it does appear that the school dug up a happy student to put a smiley face on the whole deal. :)</p>
<p>"This notion posted above that it is frequent that students who get accepted to Julliard, NCSA, Rutgers, CMU and the like are choosing DePaul is fallacy"</p>
<p>Wallyworld, how on earth would you know that this is true? Do you know any of us? NO. So please stop posting things that aren't true over and over again. Yes, lots of people would chose these schools, but many don't. That is a fact. Living breathing people that I do know have. Fact. But it doesn't and shouldn't matter to you if you are not interested in this school.</p>
<p>We get it, you don't like it, and niether do a lot of people, but others do...deal with it, and deal with the fact that it is a top-notch program that people are willing to go out on a limb and take a chance. Even if they are only there for a year, they still have a year of amazing training. Not everyone feels they need a degree. I know a recent "graduate" you didn't actutally graduate because he didn't take academics. He was there for training, and he got it.</p>
<p>I do hope your daughter does well next year, but with the way you go on about her, you may be in for a reality check, but maybe you aren't....after all, I do not know her.</p>
<p>Actress...</p>
<p>Some people who got accepted to other great schools/had big scholarships got cut, some people who were not accepted to any other good schools and got no aid did not.</p>
<p>Once you are here, it doesn't matter where you come from, everyone is on an eqaul playing field. I don't know how many people are waitlisted. DePaul accepts exactlyy 52, so they only accept people off the waitlist after someone declined, so it changes everyyear. I heard from someone that's friends with someone who works at admissions that two years ago only one person was accepted off the waitlist. I know of 6 people that were for sure waitlisted, and all of them did not get cut. Maybe getting waitlisted made them have more drive to prove themselves? Who knows...</p>
<p>I may be a "first-time poster" but I have been reading information on College Confidential since my own college search. I have been reading along as this thread was written for quite awhile, and I decided I wanted to make my first post just to help balance out the discussion as I am actually part of the schools community. However, I have no official connection to the university through this site, and I certainly was not recruited to post on the wall.</p>
<p>WallyWorld, it just seems to me that you are unnecessarily angry about this topic. I just wanted to show that there are very talented and very happy individuals who attend this program, though obviously it might not be the program for everyone. Best of luck to your daughter, though, wherever she finds to be her best college fit.</p>
<p>I have said all I wish to say about this topic. I do not want to become involved in a debate.</p>
<p>WallyWorld,</p>
<p>Most of what you say is subjective opinion....perhaps factual that prospective students who YOU know, who indeed MAY be talented do not apply for the very reason of the "cuts"....however, I have seen first hand the long lines at DePaul's auditions and I can tell you it doesn't seem to be a determent.</p>
<p>I think most parents on this forum would agree with me that we ALL think our kids are highly talented....BUT there are VERY FEW of us who get on here and toot our horn about it. Subtle pride and humbleness goes much farther than that PaPa Rose attitude. I know my Ss would be totally appauled if I got on this forum and oooooooooooozed with the notion that they could get into ANY program they wanted to. Remember, programs are just as much interested in genuinity as they are talent.....sometimes the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.</p>
<p>SUE aka 5pants</p>
<p>In fact, our top cross apps from applicants outside the region are NYU, NCSA, CMU, USC, BU, Julliard, and Emerson. Regional applicants also include Roosevelt and Columbia College Chicago as top cross apps (which is natural for students looking for conservatory programs in Chicago). This list makes perfect sense to me. These schools are similar in nature to our program (and in large urban cultural centers). To say that every student who is admitted to us and one of these other programs NEVER comes to DePaul is the real fallacy. </p>
<p>The selection of which college to attend is a VERY personal decision and can be influenced by the fit of the training, the financial aid package, the location, the experience at the college visit and the audition, etc. Students in our program have turned down offers to these other programs, students in our program have transferred to us from some of these other programs, and of course there are students who turn us down for these other programs. I am never offended and never view it as losing a talented student but that the other program is gaining one. There are plenty of talented students to go around (we unfortunately have to deny hundreds every year) and my first concern, for students choosing us or going somewhere else, is that they find the school where they will be the happiest.</p>
<p>NotMamaRose, in terms of the numbers, we experienced a 19% increase in applications three years ago (due in part to some reorganization of resources), a 2% increase from that two years ago and had the same percentage increase this past year.</p>