<p>Some data on drinking at college. Looks like the rates are diminishing and most don't over do it.</p>
<p>"Freshmen college students in 2003 reported the lowest rates of drinking in 38 years. The proportion who occasionally or frequently drinks beer has dropped to an historic low of 44.8%, down from 73.7% in 1982. Consumption of wine and distilled spirits (liquor) also dropped to record lows."</p>
<p>Yup. Tis true (binge drinking in previous two weeks is also down to 39%). But what that has done is exacerbate the differences between colleges where it is common and those where it isn't. They aren't all the same. Most of the changes reflect an ageing student population (median age almost 25), major increases in community college attendance, etc., in other words, a changing national demographic regarding who is in college. What it doesn't necessary reflect is what is going on at the 100 or so colleges and universities one usually sees discussed here. (2/3rds of all college students are of legal drinking age - but at many of the campuses discussed here, it is close or under a third.)</p>
<p>Anyhow, unless this is a BIG issue for the OP's d (in which case Wellesley is the better choice), I wouldn't use it to determine which of these three to attend. What a cornucopia of good choices!</p>
<p>Marite beat me to the punch. Wellesley benefits tremendously from it's location just 12 miles from Boston. It's just down the road from Babson College and has the resources of Boston, Cambridge and the myriad of colleges and universities in close proximity, MIT, Harvard, Tufts, Brandeis, BU, BC, and Northeastern just to name a few. The Senate bus runs very regularly between the campus and Cambridge and Boston, both on weekends and weekdays as well (it's about a 35 minute ride with all the stops).</p>
<p>All of you have given us a lot to think about and we thank you for your generosity (both on this thread and in the PMs). We welcome any other thoughts you may have.</p>
<p>In terms of academic quality, each school is excellent and would represent a new experience for my urban D (a small town in Washington or the midwest; a suburban east coast school).</p>
<p>In terms of alcohol (and I sit here typing with a glass of wine at my side) it is not as if we "think alcohol equals prison time or equals criminals and crooks." It is a question of social fit. My D has gotten generous merit scholarships because she is an extremely focused student. Frankly, she has had a lot less experience partying than other high school students-- and might be, a bit, afraid of what she will encounter at college. She will be leaving California, because (1) she knows this is time for a growth experience and (2) she wants to swim at a first rate LAC and, as an asthmatic, can't breathe in smoggy areas. I cannot blame her for wanting to be someplace where the partying happens off campus or is less intense. </p>
<p>As for me, I would have taken the scholarship in an instant and gone to Grinnell or Whitman. I love the schools and would be been happy spending the scholarship money exploring the world. But my D is different than I was -- a more disciplined student, perhaps a bit less confident socially, a bit more attached to home--and we all need to love the kid we got. I am struggling to put my personality aside and think what is best for my kid in the long run. It would be easier if the financial matters were less drammatic, but that is not the case.</p>
<p>Californian:</p>
<p>I don't know about Whitman or Grinnell, but I think the Wellesley students are rather self-confident. Think Hillary Clinton and Madeline Albright. Even not at this level, many end up on Wall Street (I remember a NYT article to the effect that the Econ Dpt at Wellesley had a great track record in placing its students in top jobs). Their self-confidence may rub off on your D; or it may intimidate her.</p>
<p>I just got to this thread and reviewed the previous comments quickly. As far as I could see from my quick review, no one has commented on the role of Judaism on any campus. How important is a significant Jewish presence to your daughter, and how do the colleges compare in that respect?</p>
<p>A Jewish presense was a factor in selecting schools to apply to. Wellesley is the best in this regard, with an active Hillel and a kosher dining room. (D is veggie and a kosher kitchen not criticial for her). Grinnell's Jewish presense is better than you would expect, with regular Shabbat dinners (separate kosher kitchen) and a half time rabbi employed by the school. Whitman has very small group of Jewish students, but has a Hillel and the student participate in monthly services in the town. On this measure, all schools get a passing grade, but they range from A to B to C.</p>
<p>Calfifornian- I know two freshman at Whitman. Both Jewish. The one I know best is a serious student with an intense personality. She is absolutely loving it. While I don't know if she drinks. I would suspect not she has plenty of social life. She is participating in her sport. Joined clubs and participating in a wide range of ec's. She did join a sorority but from what I hear it is made up of serious students like her. I know Grinnell was one of her final choices. She felt after visiting Whitman that regardless of rankings she had found her home. Her other final choice was also a female college.
The other student I don't know as well but also is a strong student who also doesn't strike me as a big partier.
I also have heard of another student who is going this fall who I know is not a drinker.</p>
<p>After rereading your posts, I have trouble seeing Grinnell as a really good fit for her. Not near family, not outdoorsy, not socially conservative.</p>
<p>As between Whitman and Wellesley, I wonder if you could take the time to visit Whitman again, if you have not already done that in the last month. There is something about a visit after all of the final admission and aid decisions are in, something about thinking "Yes I can go here, do I really want to?". There is also something about having the opportunity to make peace with the decision not to go, to instead say farewell.</p>
<p>I also wonder if the cost difference is concrete enough to her. I understand that she has to work harder in the summer if she goes to Wellesley. But what will happen if she goes to Whitman? Is the difference in her summer experience more or less comparable to the difference in price?</p>
<p>I can relate to Mom60's notion of "finding a home." YMMV. But it certainly was/is like that for my D.</p>
<p>My daughter graduated from Whitman 2 years ago. She had a wonderful experience there, and is in veterinary school now. One thing I can tell you is that the commute from southern California to Walla Walla probably takes longer then a flight to the east coast. There is always a couple of hours delay in Seatle or Portland! Whitman does have a wonderful overseas program, if that interests your daughter.</p>
<p>Californian:</p>
<p>My middle daughter is a D1 swimmer and diver, a freshman this year. When looking at schools last year we also considered D3 schools as that some D3 schools have stronger teams than some D1 schools. Since swimmers have at least 1 practice a day and probably 3 dry land practices a week she will be spending quite a bit of time with them. Some of the D3 schools did mention doubles so that would increase the time even more.</p>
<p>The coaches themselves were also very different. Some said academics first, others you are there to swim and then some said a balance between the two. It was the last ones that gave us pause, did they really mean it or was it code for you swim all the time! Even though they are D3 (no athletic $) it can impact your need-based or merit package. DD can swim for anybody, but can enjoy swimming much more if she realy clicks with the coach and team.</p>
<p>At her school now, she is one of the few swimmers who don't drink or party. Most of them are older and swim hard and play hard. But she knew that when picking her school. She also had the facilities, equipment, sport trainers and physical therapists, and sport docs as a factor on her list to help sort out which school. Her injuires this year where all taken care of at the sports facility on campus, including x-rays, therapy, dr. visits. Winter, spring and summer training are taken care of by the school and all transportation.</p>
<p>Since she was going to spend every day in some way participating in her sport it was important to her that she liked that particular environment and the people involved. School does have dorms for the athletes but since she is an academic scholarship recipient as well she choose the honors dorm. It doesn't get as crazy.</p>
<p>Has your daughter met the coaches? Did she get along with them and/or the other swimmers? What does her club coach think? Where does she fit in with her times?</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>Kat.</p>
<p>Yes, my d met the coaches and was favorable impressed by the program. Her swim times are in the middle of the pack. Her initial impression of Grinnell swimmers triggered her concern about going to Grinnell. That is, she thought that they worked/partied hard.</p>
<p>Again, Grinnell probably is not any "worse" than other LACs on this measure. It is just that my D is pretty straight and worries that she won't fit in.</p>
<p>I wouldn't worry about your D fitting in at Grinnell...it is liberal, but not in the way either coast is. It is more about listening to different views and debating them in a constructive way.</p>
<p>Wellesley is somewhat more preachy....and a bit more liberal than you would think. I have a few friends who ended up transfering out. It does have a beautiful campus, although so does Grinnell.</p>
<p>Grinnell and Wellesley have large endowments, while Clark does not (in comparison). It is interesting that your D thought they partied hard at Grinnell. For me, they were a lot more laid back than at many schools that I visitied (i.e. Wesleyan, Macalester, Whitman, Dartmouth, Hamilton, Davidson, Princeton, Columbia, etc...). Clark kids do party more, but tend to study less than at Grinnell. At Wellesley (and at Grinnell), there seems to be more smoking than drinking. At Clark, more drinking than smoking. It just depends on what your D is comfortable with.</p>
<p>I found Grinnell amazing, with respect to its resources, class size, ethos, etc...I dunno, maybe I visited on an odd weekend. I met many people with different perspectives (including tons of international students). I did not expect that from a school in Iowa. BTW, the town had enough of the stuff that typical kids need.</p>
<p>For me, I sat with Amy Tan and had an interesting conservation (along with 15 others) for a few hours over coffee (and sitting cross-legged) in the student center. That pretty much summed up my feeling of Grinnell.</p>
<p>Just a share.
IB</p>
<p>"Again, Grinnell probably is not any "worse" than other LACs on this measure. It is just that my D is pretty straight and worries that she won't fit in."</p>
<p>With choices like this, she shouldn't have to worry (provided you can afford it.) If she could pay another visit, that might be great. But if not, no sense worrying about it - pick from the other two. She's already done her homework well, and it wouldn't be so terrible now to rely on intuition. </p>
<p>(Written by a Grinnell lover...and a Whitman lover...and a Wellesley "liker" (I like Smith much more. ;))</p>
<p>wellesley is like a friggin high school ... small and corny, so choose wisely, she may hate it or love it</p>
<p>A tale of two colleges: Wellesley and Grinnell. Whenever we visited my oldest daughter at Wellesley, I got the same impression: Beautiful campus, but at 500 acres for a small student body, the distance between buildings was isolating and the emotional distances between people also felt isolating. What conversations we were able to find with students and the occasional professor were polite but not connecting. Oldest daughter had friends, but not I got your back kind. Meeting boys to date was problematic. Also, daughter was not a good emotional fit for that milieu. Nonetheless, she got a thorough education and excellent internships, and developed capabilities that stood her in good stead in the world of work and now grad school (Ph.D. program). Whenever we visited daughter number two at Grinnell, we felt embraced by students and professors. The campus is lovely, though not in a league with Wellesley. It is cozy, with the connecting effect of the loggia along the dorms and the not excessive space between buildings. The campus brimmed with conversation. At Wellesley, we were amazed by the spectacle of prestige. At Grinnell we had lively, engaging, connections. Daughter two had really good girl friends, boy friends, and boyfriends. She was a perfect fit for Grinnell, in spite of the long distance from home (east coast). Likewise, she got a thorough education and research opportunities and was well prepared for grad school (will have her Ph.D. within the next year). Interestingly, the last time either daughter spent as much as a summer at home was the summer after their respective freshman years. After that it was internships or research out of state and then work or grad school out of state. I know this post is biased toward Grinnell. I do have the feeling that fit is everything as far as the enjoyment and engagement of the four years is concerned. So if your daughter is a good fit for Wellesley, she'll probably enjoy it a lot more than my oldest did.</p>
<p>For better or worse, D decided on Wellesley today. Thank you all very much for your help. I think very highly of Grinnell and Whitman and would have been pleased (and richer) if she had decided to go to one of those fine institutions. I am already pitching them to kid #2!</p>
<p>Congratulations to her and to you!</p>
<p>Congrats. Wellesley is a wonderful school. Three of my son's classmates will be starting there in the fall.</p>