Exactly. I saw absolutely no point in applying to Stanford when Duke was practically in my backyard. I only applied to three OOS schools, for that matter, all of which offered a major Stanford lacks entirely.</p>
<p>
[quote=joshua007]
But let's not be hypocritical at the moment and be honest at once, DUKE is not in Stanford's league.
I've never quite understood why some people are fond of capitalizing Duke and Penn. I suppose that's neither here nor there. </p>
<p>I'm intrigued by that claim and would be interested to see how it applies to my education. Are you, for example, saying that Stanford's marine lab is better than Duke's? Or that Stanford offers more and better archaeology opportunities? Or that Stanford would give me more opportunities to study papyrology and osteology than the Duke papyrus archive and Lemur Center? Specifics, please.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For the Class of 2008, the university admitted 2,486 students; 1,665 accepted the offer of admission and arrived at the university last month. Of the 821 students who declined admission and filled out a form that indicated where they were going instead, 28 percent said Harvard, 20 percent said Yale, 13 percent said MIT and 8 percent said Princeton. All other universities that were mentioned did not represent more than 2 percent [each], and no more than 1 percent indicated that they would attend a Pac-10 school, according to the figures provided by the admission office.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So in other words, no more than 16 people (2%) indicated they picked a non-HYPM school over Stanford that year. That non-HYPM school could be Duke, CalTech, Columbia, Dartmouth, UPenn-Wharton....We don't know which one though I would say CalTech or UPenn are the most likely. But even if that was Duke and given the fact that Stanford usually has 65-70% yield while Duke's is ~40% even with 70 full-tuition scholarhsips available each year, it seems to be a safe bet that most people, if given a chance, would pick Stanford over Duke, especially if finance isn't a factor.</p>
<p>
[Quote]
It's hard to find consensus when people contradict even themselves.
[/Quote]
.
The contradiction always come from opposing views driven by self-gratification and cross-promotion. If you look who's posting what may seem as counter to the norm or generally accepted data, it's usually because that poster is going to such and such school. This board is full of those type of people, but there's also a large presence of very objective and rational types. After reading the board for a while you will come to know the latter. It is their posts that I put more weight.</p>
<p>Joshua, I am only talking about undergrad, so anything you say about grad programs doesn't matter to me. I am speaking about undergrad only because I don't care about grad programs...I'm an undergrad and I doubt people looking at grad programs would use this site.</p>
<p>Here is Duke's "lower" status compared with peer schools (Stanford is peers to HYPM, Duke peers with the rest of the Ivies):</p>
<p>SAT's for entering Class of 2010:
Harvard: 1390 - 1590
Stanford: 1350 - 1540 <--- not significantly higher than Duke
Duke: 1360 - 1550
Columbia: 1320 - 1520</p>
<p>WSJ Rates of Feeding into top 5 law, biz, and med schools:
Harvard: 21% of students
Stanford: 10.5 % of students <---again, not significantly higher
Duke: 8.5 % of students
Columbia: 7% of students</p>
<p>National Merit Scholars in entering Class of 2010:
Harvard: 290
Stanford: 150 <---again, not significantly higher
Duke: 120
Columbia: 70</p>
<p>Joshua, apparently the league below that Duke is in isn't that far away (for undergrad). Also, its pretty clear that Harvard undergrads are stronger than Stanford undergrads by a similar distance.</p>
<p>I think Duke is a fantastic school and prestigious in its own right. However, like Sam Lee stated above, it doesn't compete as well for students vs. HYPSM. There is a quote from the dean of admissions at Duke mentioned elsewhere on this board that said HYPSM takes 85% of cross-admits from Duke. The question on this thread was merely about which are Stanford's peer schools, not which are the best schools.</p>
<p>Yeah, Stanford is a stronger undergrad than Duke, just not by much (kind of how Princeton isn't much better than Penn, Harvard isn't much better than Columbia, and Yale isn't much better than Dartmouth). </p>
<p>However, I think the experiences at Stanford and Duke are similar - all very smart kids and an active social scene, warm weather, and an attitude that they are different than the Ivies socially but still academic equals.</p>
<p>joshua007,
You have posted elsewhere that you are a UK resident and that you will be attending U Michigan. You have made some pretty strong statements here about both Stanford and Duke. Just out of curiousity, have you ever visited either school?</p>
<p>Ok, thanks for the update and sorry for my error about the U Michigan attribution. I know Stanford pretty well and agree that it is a superb place and I'm sure you enjoyed your time there. I also know Duke and the Durham/Chapel Hill area quite well. Durham is certainly not the SF Bay Area which is a big plus for Stanford. </p>
<p>In their home regions (Duke in the South and Stanford in the West), they would be the preferred choice, but probably Stanford would prevail in the Northeast and the Revealed Preference data referenced above would support that. I accept that Stanford has a stronger prestige factor (eg, the expression HYPS), but I don't see a discernible difference in student quality. Both are full of truly excellent and talented students and as I have stated before, I believe that both schools offer a superior undergraduate experience.</p>
<p>You are responding to me, not Hawkette. And I am speaking about undergrad. </p>
<p>"you're simply cutting the university into two different pieces then offer your argument based on the piece which only concerns you or which you have knowledge about."
- This is correct.</p>
<p>I agree with everything you say in the above post, BTW. You have a lot of knowledge about US schools - especially considering you are a UK student. Do you go to school in the US?</p>
<p>joshua007,
For starters, I'm not a dude. Second, virtually this entire site is dedicated to undergrad and that has been the discussion of this thread for me and virtually everyone else. Third, for Stanford's peers, I think you missed Princeton and your list of those just below is incomplete as well. Fourth, in terms of the overall undergraduate experience that the school has to offer (which has been a large part of my commentary and descriptions/comparisons beg in #107), Stanford and Duke are far more alike than Harvard, MIT, or Yale. As a student, the academic/social/athletic environment is more similar to Cal except for the great difference in size.</p>
<p>In the Pacific, I'd say that Beida, Todai, and the IITs are all equally "good" institutions in terms of prestige. Actual education, and the IITs are probably even better (in what they do.)</p>
<p>One anecdote about the “overall” comments made earlier. I was in Williamstown in February, 2006 over Winter Carnival weekend and attended the Williams/Amherst hockey game. I was told that this is their biggest social weekend of the winter. What I saw was a huge disappointment to me as there really wasn’t a lot going on, the hockey stadium (if I can call it that) was only about 2/3 full and the place just seemed pretty dead in a very rural area. The big event one day was a freezing and poorly attended skiing competition held about 30 minutes away from campus. I admire the kids who go there, but you better want to be in that environment because you could be miserable if cold weather and small, rural towns are not your thing. </p>
<p>A few weeks later I was in Charlottesville at U Virginia (one of Newsweek’s new Ivies) and someone described it to me as an “off” weekend. But to me, and particularly in comparison with the “big” weekend in Williamstown, the place was hopping with parties and an active social scene in the dorms, in their school Pub, and in several areas in the city that students frequent. </p>
<p>Now Williams and U Virginia are not academic peers (IMO Williams is more elite, more selective and higher quality), but if you want a very good school that ALSO has a large and lively social element, then a school like U Virginia compares very well with a school like Williams. This is the point that there are plenty of terrific schools where students can have excellent academics, but the non-academic factors also deserve a lot of consideration in the college search process. After seeing Williams and U Virginia, it was clear to me which school I found more appealing and I am sure that there are many others who would have the opposite reaction. (BTW, I think that Duke and Stanford are more like U Virginia and HYPA are more like Williams).</p>
<p>c'mon - duke is a good school, but it's really a columbia, penn, cornell, northwestern level school. even the duke admissions office acknowledges that duke still can't recruit the HYPSM students. stanford is clearly considered academic peers with harvard, yale, princeton. </p>
I remain unconvinced that quality of students is representative of the quality of education. There was a rather interesting thread about this, however. HYPSM don't have the largest raw numbers of high scoring students. </p>
<ol>
<li>This thread is about the schools "most comparable to Stanford." Duke is the closest match to Stanford in terms of student life, climate, athletics, etc. If you choose to believe that a gap in prestige (apparently as large as the Grand Canyon!) will make more of a difference to a student than balmy weather vs. three feet of snow, I have to question your reasoning.</li>
</ol>