What kind of compositional genius can they expect?

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>I happen not to be applying to any conservatories, but I think my question applies to all schools that offer to take a look at applicants' original compositions. </p>

<p>Maybe it's simple ignorance on my part, but I've never known of any even remotely objective standard for student compositions. Say if I wanted to become a piano performance major I'd be expected, nay, in most cases required to have studied difficult Western Classical music intensely, Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, Rachmaninoff etc. There is a certain standard of technical ability I'd have to measure up to. Exceed it, I'm good to go. I'm an impressive candidate. But if I fall below the mark, something bad will happen. Maybe I'll be rejected. </p>

<p>Whereas a composition major is left without such a clearly defined measure of musical "excellence". A high school senior certainly isn't expected to compose like Chopin or Beethoven. Not even the professor can do that. So then what kind of credentials should a competitive candidate have? The arts supplement of the Common Application lists "songwriting" and "composition" as two possible categories of artistic accomplishment. </p>

<p>Songwriting? That's even more vague than composition (which assumes some adherence to western classical tradition). </p>

<p>I know that there are composition teachers, but I've never had one and I have no idea or interest really in what they teach. Counterpoint? Music theory? Harmony, analysis and figured bass? Whatever it is, after a certain number of years do these composition students start banging out heartbreaking melodies like some insane piano performance hopeful bangs out Islamey? </p>

<p>Well, maybe, for all I know. You tell me. Myself I write 60% pop music, 30% electronic, and 10% little solo piano pieces for fun. I'm planning on incorporating my works in all three genres into my application. I have never had a composition teacher, and I quit formal piano lessons when I was 12. I want to know what expectations are. I have unanswered questions that concern me a bit when I think about how large a part composition plays in my application. Do I measure up? Who measures up? How do "they" decide if one can be considered to measure up?</p>

<p>Maybe giving a sample will help you answer my question. Here's a piece from the third category, a frisky little toccata I composed after school about a week ago: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.tindeck.com/audio/filestore/a/axre-Termite%20Toccata.mp3%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tindeck.com/audio/filestore/a/axre-Termite%20Toccata.mp3&lt;/a>
It's very short, which is why I choose to share it. Wouldn't want to bore you. Also if I posted something more substantive maybe someone would try to steal it. Oh, I do flatter myself. </p>

<p>Thank you in advance for your insight. I feel like I didn't flesh out my explanation as much as I'd have liked to, but hopefully you get the idea.</p>

2

<p>Our state school music association offers an evaluation service/competition for compositions by students. You submit a recording and sheet music and you will get a judge's written evaluation and a placement score. Maybe your state has something similar. It's a way to get some educated feedback on your work.</p>

3

<p>This is one of those times when I think what you are really looking for is "fit" more than anything. My S is a composer, although that is not his major. However, his instrumental teacher at Juilliard, who had also auditioned him for Curtis, said he accepted him to Juilliard rather than Curtis on the basis of his compositions, and what S said about his compositional goals - The teacher felt S would fit much better into the more modern teaching at Juilliard, whereas Curtis's was much more traditionally focused. That was my first foray into the world of composition. Up to that point, I had never really thought about the different kinds of composition, other than very broad categories of kinds of music.</p>

<p>During your research, you need to be looking for schools that foster song-writing and the other genres you want to write for. Then you need to be meeting with composition teachers who will review your work with you. Based on their comments, you will see if they feel they have anything to teach you, and if you would benefit from what they have to offer.</p>

<p>As for what they teach, my S's composition classes have forced him beyond what he does easily. He has been guided to write for instruments and ensembles other than what he plays, to write in genres outside his favorites, and to experiment with ideas and concepts that do not come naturally to him. Although I teased him about not writing anything "normal", his teachers encouraged him to take chances - that if you can't do it as an undergrad, when can you? They spent a lot of time tearing compositions apart: form, structure, meaning.</p>

4

<p>While it's still subjective, a lot of students who are interested in composition will come with a resume that includes prizes, summer composition programs, pre-college programs, etc. They may have recommendations from composition teachers. Do you have any kind of music teacher who is familiar with what you have achieved? Are you planning to indicate an interest in majoring in music? If so, what other musical activities will you have to report?</p>

5

<p>Thank you for all your feedback. I appreciate that you've taken the time to respond.</p>

<p>Unfortunately I've never done any sort of composition competition or summer program that I could list on my app, and as I said I've never had a composition teacher- all my learning has been self-directed, for better or worse. I do have my piano teacher from 5 years ago. I'm still in contact with her and she likes my compositions, but I don't really know how helpful a rec from her will be in the long run. She will be writing the required recommendation from an "arts instructor" on my arts supplement simply because she's the only "arts instructor" I've stuck with for more than a month. </p>

<p>I've never been very public or competitive about my music, and I quite regret it now that I see what colleges really put weight in: the only things they CAN put weight in without making subjective judgments on their own accord, if I understand correctly.</p>

<p>To put this in context I'm applying early decision to Yale. Music major? Not sure. I'm nearly as focused on the liberal arts as I am on music, I just thought it'd be a really great thing to have going for me, a reason admissions might choose me over "thousands of other qualified [sigh] candidates". A solid reason, even, but I wasn't thinking realistically. I thought my compositions, while not exactly blow-you-out-of-the-water, were somewhat creative and indicative of a deeper musicality, and that when admissions evaluated them my application might be given greater weight, perhaps even more so than that of some adderall-fueled performance robot. But time to re-evaluate.</p>

<p>Apart from composition all I've got is my piano and guitar. My performance ability on piano is good to medium-strong but I would have to completely change my focus to meet the undergrad "performance standard". This is a no go, and would be pointless anyway. I have no intention of training to become a concert pianist (talk about setting yourself up for failure). My guitar skill is, and though it pains me to say it, negligible in terms of competitive college admissions. </p>

<p>I guess that's what you get for not following a traditional route - a lot of headaches. </p>

<p>My understanding of an answer to my question: Admissions people/college music departments are more interested in accolades or recommendations you've received for composition than listening to your compositions themselves. If you haven't accomplished anything "official" your compositions are just another fun little extracurricular... not an impressive basis for admission. I suppose the reasons behind this are obvious. Thanks again for your answers, and I hope very much that my doubts are unfounded and colleges will recognize the individual musician in me... huzzah...</p>

<p>Anyway it may be all moot- my compositions probably wouldn't appeal to judges and councils and whatnot seeing as I've never been schooled in form, structure, or meaning. I say this without irony.</p>

6

<p>If you have an arts supplement to your application (s) then attach a CD of you playing your compositions, and include the sheet music, too. I think that's the point of the arts supplement, at least, when my son applied to both Duke and Amherst College, their arts supplements allowed him to do that. PLUS, I just remembered, he found out Duke had a djembe ensemble, and he sent a CD of himself playing the djembe and got a personal call from the ensemble teacher and got into the school, early admit. It pays to do research into every school, see if you can target something specific like that, and go for it. The Amherst jazz department also called him personally---He had no music awards or special competitions or programs, but his arts supplement was interesting.</p>

7

<p>Whatever you do, don't approach it already defeated.</p>

8

<p>But of course- I was merely projecting the worst. Without faith in myself I would have never kept up my interest in music for this long. Development of one's musicality is an absolutely daunting task to face alone. Don't you fret about my self-confidence now ;). </p>

<p>Thank you two for your comments- I will probably do as you suggest, jazzzmom, though getting it all down in sheet music will be kind of a pain. Also I plan on submitting the electronic arts supplement and as far as I know there isn't a place for sheets on that thing...</p>

9

<p>Hey, I'm in almost exactly the same situation as you! Composing music has been a very significant part of my life for the past year or so, but I'm entirely self-taught and have never been formally trained in composition or have any sort of public recognition for my efforts, so I'm not sure whether to include my music in my college applications. Also, my music is almost exclusively electronic, so I wouldn't be able to send any sheet music (which some colleges seem to require with any compositions sent as an arts supplement).</p>

<p>Also, I listened to your toccata. It's very, very impressive and seriously blows anything I've done out of the water. :o You should definitely send it in with your apps, I guarantee you something of that caliber will absolutely help.</p>

<p>Any chance I could hear some of your other compositions (especially your pop and electronic music)?</p>

10

<p>I knew there were others like me! Very cool to see another teenage musician on the road less traveled by! It's really tough because mainstream electronic and pop music, in my estimation, simply have not gained the acceptance in highbrow musical culture of classical, jazz (this proves it, jazz is dead :)) and other "traditional" forms, and colleges are all about that kind of pretension. Even electronic music in college, from what I've seen, is about rewiring decades old analog synthesizers and creating tone poems out of white noise automation, though I could be wrong about this. Anyway it all adds up to me eschewing the music major route... but I still want to use my stuff for admissions.</p>

<p>So even if colleges see it as just another extracurricular we are duly passionate about I think we oughta just send that **** in. </p>

<p>Cross your fingers for open-minded admissions people! </p>

<p>Here is a sample of my electronica, pretty much the least hardcore stuff you could ever hope to come across:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.tindeck.com/audio/filestore/v/vinh-Improperty.mp3%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tindeck.com/audio/filestore/v/vinh-Improperty.mp3&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The mixing on this one is iffy, I realize in hindsight...</p>

11

<p>Wow, great compositions here guys....</p>

<p>My style is different I guess. I like to "try" orchestration but am not terribly amazing at it. I'd also like and answer to the question posed above though by anyone at all who may have a clue....</p>

<p>What exactly is the competition against composition majors for auditions and what not?
What sort of things do you think schools (in general here if possible) will look for?</p>

<p>I've attached three short clips of my work as well if you care to listen.</p>

<p>Csmeredith, I definitely agree that it's awesome to see other teenage composers out there, and it's also great/inspiring to hear your wonderful compositions :p</p>

<p>Track 1: Relaxation/url</a>
Track 2: [url=<a href="http://www.tindeck.com/audio/filestore/y/yqgv-Temptation.mp3"&gt;http://www.tindeck.com/audio/filestore/y/yqgv-Temptation.mp3&lt;/a&gt;] Temptation
Track 3: [url=<a href="http://www.tindeck.com/audio/filestore/r/rpsa-Techno%20Beat%202.mp3%5DTechno"&gt;http://www.tindeck.com/audio/filestore/r/rpsa-Techno%20Beat%202.mp3]Techno&lt;/a> Beat 2<a href="This%20is%20a%20full%20techno/trance%20track%20I%20created%20out%20of%20boredom.%20It's%20quite%20long">/url</a></p>

12

<p>CS Meredith and Astonisher: I listened to and enjoyed some of the music you both posted. Just want to say that you are representative of a whole new generation of teenagers who are composing, thanks to technology. There is a surge of creative composing going on, and it is a wonderful thing.</p>

<p>CS Meredith, I can't quite put my finger on what your attitude is here. I can't tell if you are sort of romanticizing your self-taught, non-competitive status, or if you are feeling insecure. Either attitude is unnecessary here. It might help if you learned a little more about what others are doing, along the spectrum of casual-for enjoyment- type of musician to the serious "adderall fueled robots" musicians or whatever term it was you used.</p>

<p>Most serious student composers start off just like you. They have a drive to write music that cannot be ignored, so they write music. They may write "songs" or they may write 15 minute-long string quartets. Like any creative endeavor, there comes a time when learning theory, solfege, harmony and counterpoint etc. feels needed, just as good grammar and punctuation can enable a gifted and creative natural writer to be a better writer. There is a point at which doing your own stuff can be accompanied by an interest in and respect for the music of the past, and for traditional music studies.</p>

<p>You talk about the academic pretensions about classical music, and about student composers writing like Chopin and Beethoven et al. The thing you might really want to learn about is that students are being encouraged in academia, whether college or conservatory, to "find their own voice." The concert music being created these days is very individualistic and interesting. Sure, students take courses on the string quartets of Beethoven, and try their hand at imitating his style, in an academic class, or try their hand at Bach's counterpoint, as an exercise that can enrich creativity and understanding, but most student compositions are not at all imitative. </p>

<p>For starters, you might want to listen to some "new music" (otherwise known as contemporary classical). With your interests, try to find a CD of Steve Reich's "Different Trains." Try some John Adams, Phillip Glass, Messiaen, Carter, the list goes on and on...</p>

<p>There is a lot of work going on in electronics, computers and mixed media.</p>

<p>Anyway, CS, your music shows some definite potential. (Not leaving Astonisher out here, just addressing the original post).If you want to apply to Yale, go meet with Katherine Alexander at their music department. Bring some music and ask her advice. Our daughter is a composer, and sent Harvard just one CD w/a score and some programs for concerts in which her music had been played. I think the music is the thing, frankly, so the programs were superfluous but she had them so what the heck.</p>

<p>You are lucky: apparently you can play your own music, either on piano or computer. For Yale, if you really don't have a score, you might be able to just send a CD. Ask them. The people in that music department are very nice human beings who want to help! But watch how your attitude sounds, and be respectful of others' endeavors and approaches, you know? A LOT of hard work goes into being a good musician. It is not all about creativity, although that is important of course. And learning from others is always a good thing, otherwise, why go?</p>

<p>If you are interested in a conservatory, I would suggest looking at Oberlin's TIMARA program (Look it up) where very interesting stuff is going on. Since you have a foot in the more pop world, and I could also see you being interested in composing for movies, say, you might want to look at NYU. Another interesting program with songwriting is Bennington. Harvard has some very tough theory, musicianship and music history courses, but classes are small and inspiring. Tufts has a growing music department with a wonderful composer teaching composition classes, who is very open and encouraging. Well, there are tons of schools...people on here can tell you.</p>

<p>For conservatories, applicants submit 2 to 4 scores and CD's. For our daughter, the hardest thing was getting musicians to play her stuff, because she wrote a lot for string quartets and a lot for clarinet ensembles. We actually had to pay musicians. Again, you are fortunate! The conservatories also have interviews and 3 hour long exams on theory. Manhattan School has an overnight composition assignment that is challenging and "edgy," which applicants then present to a panel the next day. It is a bit grueling!</p>

<p>I don't know why either of you should be defensive about your work or the way in which you are doing the work. You should just go ahead and submit your best work (Not too much of it, we were advised..just one in fact would be best, for colleges!) and it should be very helpful to your application.</p>

<p>One other thing: why not find a teacher for this last year? If you call a university music dept. near you, you could probably get a name. They can also guide you to an appropriate graduate student. This would give you a chance to find out what composing is really all about these days- a very exciting new world! A little theory will be helpful next year, too.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

13

<p>Thank you for your extended post! Truth be told you hit both nails on the head- yes, I'm romanticizing my background, and yes, I'm insecure... not as if I was very subtle on either point. These attitudes may be unnecessary but more than a little warranted. I compare myself with kids coming from years of composition lessons and I think... what the heck? Who are these kids anyway? Isn't being tutored at composition kind of like your parents paying some adult to look over and revise, say, creative stories you do on your own time? IE weird? But nevermind. That's just my outlook. I bet a lot of parents on here find tutors for their child's creative writing. Why not composition? </p>

<p>Thanks for your advice compmom, it sounds good and you're very kind. I think mostly I was just venting, didn't mean to sound defensive though undoubtedly I am very much so. I sent 5 songs to Yale, looks like that was less than smart. I didn't know how many they wanted. I went with the 10 minute guideline on the electronic common app arts supplement even though I didn't use it. Oh well. </p>

<p>For the record, I don't respect "new music". I just don't. The fact that so few outside music academia can relate to it at all just ruins it for me. I guess I'll try to keep that to myself. </p>

<p>Sorry if I sounded/sound overly confrontational. There's not much more I can say. Everyone has their own style. College music probably isn't suitable for me anyway, I'm too much a passionate lone ranger, a self-made hardscrabble musical warrior, Lord Byron of the nerdy pre-college music set, yes... I'm out of place in this forum of earnest well-meaning parents, the music major forum. Chances are I won't be a music major. I took music theory last year, I did not have a good time. Easy enough but boring as ****.</p>

<p>Astonisher your music is very nice/relaxing/puts a smile on my face. </p>

<p>Thanks again everyone who responded. You've been very insightful. Apologies if I thoughtlessly insulted music or musical practices you like, I do appreciate the time you've taken. My question, objectively, remains unanswered but I don't think it was a smart question in the first place. Astonisher re-iterated it in more answerable fashion.</p>

14

<p>"For the record, I don't respect "new music". I just don't. The fact that so few outside music academia can relate to it at all just ruins it for me. I guess I'll try to keep that to myself. "</p>

<p>This sounds like something spoken by someone on the outside looking in, probably somewhat ill-informed of what the 'inside' is really like. Have you listened to much "new music"? If so, who and what don't you like, and why? Personally, I feel that the classical music being written today is infinitely more varied, versatile, and wide-spread in styles than ever before, that I have trouble believing how anybody can not possibly find something they like amongst it, unless they haven't spend enough time looking into it. If that's the case, perhaps it is an ill-informed opinion of theirs when they decide they don't want to "respect" the style altogether.</p>

<p>On a tangent, few people outside academia or laboratories can relate to Einstein and his Relativity Theory as well. So you don't respect Einstein either?</p>

<p>Also for the record, Yale (at least the Music school there) is a very academic setting in terms of the new music being composed there - it's just as on par or perhaps even more so than the leading conservatories in the States. Heck, Chris Theofenidis, teaches there (also at Peabody and formerly at Juilliard), and he is one of the most important figures in musical academia today.</p>

15

<p>One phrase jumped out at me: "Isn't being tutored at composition kind of like your parents paying some adult to look over and revise, say, creative stories you do on your own time?"</p>

<p>If I could be permitted to examine this from a different angle: Imagine a child writing a creative story without any knowledge of grammar, spelling, etc. My D wrote a story in kindergarten that started : "Once upon a tim ther was a drjn. He was a nic drjn. He lived in a cafe." We still tease her about Nick, the Drajon, who lived in a Cafe. Hey! A great story. Her classmates loved it. But to leave her at the kindergarten level would have meant she missed out on a lot.</p>

<p>Sometimes the rules are necessary for the common understanding. If we handed her Shakespeare in kindergarten, it wouldn't have made any sense to her, and she would have condemned Shakespeare for being unreachable and not dumbed down enough for the common man. Evaluating everything based on her then-current set of standards.</p>

<p>Yes, I agree that modern "classical" music is not easily accessible. It is the Picasso of music (surely coloring books are easier to grasp than his work). But that is what excites some folks about the new music - that it stretches and redefines and moves outside the outline.</p>

<p>I am not trying to change your mind about what kind of music you like, or that you write. (I like country music, even though they use the same 3 chords over and over! It's just a personal taste thing, and I make no apology for it.) But compositional education might at least help you understand what is happening better.</p>

16

<p>I just have to support those students who are entering today's EXCITING field of composition.</p>

<p>I came out of music school at a time when much "new music" was largely inaccessible even when written by notable name composers (whom I won't name). I remember performing one string quartet that needed a conductor simply to keep the 4 performers from entering at the wrong time - and that was after hours of rehearsal and study of the work. Audiences were primarily students who were required to attend a given number of "new music" concerts. </p>

<p>In the last few years, I've been privileged to attend a number of concerts - not labeled as New Music - but that have contained works written in the last 5 or so years. I inevitably cringe when I notice this on the program (old habits die hard), but then end up enjoying the works presented. In fact, more than once recently, I've run backstage to catch a performer to ask if the music is published - I'd love to share with violin students.</p>

<p>There's much going on these days. I hope all you young composers keep it coming!</p>

17

<p>When Steve Reich came to New England Conservatory last year, Jordan Hall was packed for three nights. There are a lot of very exciting (and popular) things going on in concert music, and the music is very varied and individual. Some composers may cite Led Zeppelin as an influence, other may cite Bach, or Beethoven or Shostakovich. As we have said, electronics and computers and mixed media are also big factors. Tonalism is returning and even neo-Romanticism. We go to student composer concerts at NEC and every single piece is totally different from the others. This is the mark of a great teacher.</p>

<p>I think that you may be thinking of the academic music called "serialism, " the influence of which is fading. Milton Babbitt even said that this academic music was for an elite, because most of the public was not educated enough to understand it. Similar trends were evident in modern dance, art, and theater at the time. As one dancer I know said, there was an attitude of "f--- you to the audience." Read this link:</p>

<p><a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9801E6D6103AF930A3575BC0A961958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all"&gt;http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9801E6D6103AF930A3575BC0A961958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Sending 5 pieces to Yale is fine. They will listen to whatever they have time to listen to, and I'm sure they will appreciate your work. The music department will get it, not the admissions, as you probably know...</p>

<p>Most young composers are not the prodigy types who could play piano fabulously at age 5 and wrote "classical" pieces in first grade. Many people start composing in their late teens, or college years. There may be some kids taking composition lessons for years, but the student composers we know started lessons because they were already writing music and felt the need to go deeper with their craftsmanship. They tend to be older than the stereotype you may have. You are not behind at all, and have even taken some theory.</p>

<p>Teachers in composition, like writing tutors actually, are "non-directive." The effect of having a teacher occurs on many levels. Our daughter is a classical guitarist, and expressed a desire, in 10th grade, to find a piano teacher who would teach her about the workings of music: she had no desire to be a pianist. As it turns out, many piano teachers are now teaching theory, and asking their students to try composing as well. She found one, and he taught her to make CD's of her still pretty primitive work, and took her seriously, which is one of the most important things a teacher can do. In my opinion, all students should be treated this way.</p>

<p>From there, in 11th grade, she went to a very nice professor at a nearby university, who let her sit in on a composition seminar. In lessons, her teacher played her scores and asked a lot of questions, suggested books to read, and provided musicians to play the music once finished,as well as recordings (she now records her own). I can't explain the blossoming that occurred under his tutelage, it is mysterious to me, but has as much to do with emotional factors like confidence and hope, as with technical matters. This daughter is very private and would very much understand how you feel, but she would tell you that having a teacher is fabulous. Oh - and lessons were only once/month. She worked on her own and brought finished drafts to the teacher. That is how it works. You don't write while you are with the teacher, so it is no different from what you are doing now.</p>

<p>You may just want to continue as you are, writing privately and avoiding the academic seriousness of composition study. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Or maybe you will get into songwriting, music for film or tv, or computer/electronic music. You certainly seem to have a drive to compose, and some considerable talent, so I hope that one way or the other, you will continue! You are young, let it just take you wherever...but be OPEN!</p>

<p>If you are really not interested in teachers, and do not like "new music," then Yale may not be the best place for you musically, although using your music to get in in order to study other things is a common strategy. If your interests continue along the same lines though, and you do want to work on music, as opposed to having it as a private sideline, then you might want to look at NYU or Oberlin or Bennington, even Berklee, or other places folks can tell you about here.</p>

<p>BTW, my daughter is in a small section of a class, with 4 students in it, at Harvard, doing music history that is very difficult. One of her classmates is a well-known rock guitarist from LA, 32 years old. He developed carpal tunnel syndrome and, while recovering, wrote an orchestral piece that was produced at a big multi-media event in LA, with media interviews and everything. He had no background in serious music, at all. At Harvard, the guy is completely terrified, but very excited,, as he tries out academia for the first time. I see his story as one of amazing courage and humility. I'm sure that, at age 18, while he was playing in a band in the garage, he would not have predicted this turn of events. Like I said, be open to life and where it takes you.</p>

<p>You do have ability. It is undeveloped, but definitely there! Keep developing it by yourself, or with friends, until you, yourself, feel the urgent need to go further with a teacher. You may never feel that need, but music can still be a big part of your life.</p>

<p>As a last note, while I appreciate your perception of parents on here as "earnest," I must tell you that I am not well-versed in music myself, and have struggled to keep up with things in order to provide my kid with what she needs. At this point, all of my children (3, a musician, dancer and computer scientist) have moved beyond me to the point where I don't have the slightest ability to guide. They have found others to do this, teachers who know how to guide them. But during those years when I took books out of the library, attended concerts, and listened to my kids teach ME, I sure did have a lot of fun.</p>

18

<p>Well said, compmom. Your kids are lucky to have such a supporting and understanding parent that you are.</p>

<p>I like the point you bring up towards the beginning, where you ponder if csmeredith has maybe mixed up his/her impressions of present-day academic music with 'serial' or 'avant-garde' music. I agree, and can promise you that most of today's composers are not dedicated avant-gardes only devoted to pushing the boundaries of convention, or at least not to a comparable level to the composers of the Post-World-War-II era, which was probably the height of the composition of avant-garde classical music. Serialism is even more so the case. The roots of serial music can probably be traced back to over an entire century ago, and the technique has already been obsolete from widespread use for over 60 some years now.</p>

<p>Instead, most composition students nowadays will probably tell you that their professors emphasize finding their individual voice. For many students, finding their individual voices involves 'fusion' of different types of music, art, and cultures. This is a very popular path right now in today's unprecedented global world.</p>

<p>If you want to get into listening to "modern" classical music; Messiaen, Cage; Carter, Crumb, Adams, Ligeti, and the like; are probably not the names that are most representative of today's scene, although I adore each and every one of those composers very much personally. Instead, if anybody reading wants to listen to more music to get a grasp of what today's academic world is like, may I reccomend, in no particular order:
Mark-Anthony Turnage, Jennifer Higdon, Michael Gandolfi, Thomas Ades, Ned Rorem, Harrison Birtwistle, Ellen Taaffe Zwilich, Peter Maxwell-Davies, Magnus Lindberg, Tan Dun, George Benjamin, Eric Whitacre, Alexander Goehr, Oliver Knussen, Peter Lieberson, John Harbison, Jonathan Harvey, Bright Sheng, and Lee Hyla.</p>

<p>Because I am an 'academic' composer myself, I guess I chose to take some issue with csmeredith's choice of wording, that he/she has "no respect" for my community because our music is something so purposely inaccessible to people outside our exclusive circle. These sentiments, along with the analogy of composition teachers being just hired help to fix and rewrite creative works, are actually quite offensive. I've had composition and theory teachers that I've learned wonderful life lessons from by studying with them. Perhaps it's the very abstract nature of composition lessons. Studying composition with a teacher is nothing like paying someone to do your taxes or proofread your essays, that much I'm sure.</p>

<p>I do frequently find people who flat-out shun this community I belong to, even though they're largely unaware of what this community is like in the first place. I recommend listening and taking a poke around what contemporary classical music actually sounds like first, before making judgement by using whatever preconceived nations you have of what 'modern' music sounds like.</p>

<p>What if I, being a conservatory composition student myself, decided to say the exact same thing, but the other way around? How would you feel if I announced to everyone that I have absolutely "no respect" for anyone who doesn't like academic music, and yet still attempts to 'compose' music even though they have no grounding in formal studies of the craft? You surely wouldn't like it if I said that to you. What if I told you that while the mp3's you posted sounded aesthetically nice, I could tell by listening that they didn't take particular a lot of skill or knowledge or time to create?</p>

<p>Theoretical questions of course, I'm not saying that's the way how I feel!</p>

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<p>I'm curious, what instruments/technologies did you use on that piece?</p>

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<p>CS Meredith -- I meant the piece of music you posted on 10/16 that is hosted on tindeck...sorry for the confusion -- just curious what instruments/gear you used :-)</p>