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<p>That’s right. Pluto didn’t leave of its own accord, it got kicked out because the administrators of the solar system decided it no longer met standards.</p>
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Academic compatibility is an optional consideration for most athletic conferences (as shown by sakky’s point about the Pac-10). But it would not be an optional consideration for the Ivy League. </p>
<p>The Ivies play by different rules, as shown, for example, by their ban on athletic scholarships. As DI schools, the Ivies could offer athletic scholarships – but they don’t. Similarly, they could admit academically lower-ranked schools – but they wouldn’t.</p>
<p>Similarly, geographic compatibility is an optional consideration for most athletic conferences (as shown, for example, by Colorado joining the Pac-10 or TCU joining the Big East). But it would not be an optional consideration for the Ivy League. </p>
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That’s true … but so what? No one (except possibly sakky) expects every school and every conference to sponsor every sport. The result is that sometimes conferences have “holes” that they need to fill for particular sports. And sometimes schools have to look outside their normal conference to find a “home” for a particular sport. </p>
<p>The Pac-10, for example, currently admits “outside” schools for soccer, swim/dive, and wrestling. Cal State Bakersfield competes in the Pac-10 for wrestling, and has even won the Pac-10 wrestling championship. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that CSUB would be a good fit in the Pac-10 for every other sport (certainly not football, since CSUB doesn’t have a team). </p>
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And by the same logic, the University of Maine at Presque Isle and St. Michael’s College of Vermont would both be good potential fits for the Ivy League. They may seem like small, little-known Division II schools, but let’s not overlook the fact that they both [url=<a href=“http://www.eisaskiing.org/]compete[/url”>http://www.eisaskiing.org/]compete[/url</a>] in the Eastern Intercollegiate Ski Association, just like Dartmouth and Harvard.</p>
<p>Hopkins would definitely make the most sense in terms of how athletics would line up. In addition to the Princeton rivalry in lacrosse, Cornell is also very strong year in and year out. Of course, JHU would have to step it up in some other sports though. But other than that, it’s a graduate research powerhouse and definitely respectable at the undergraduate level. Duke and Georgetown wouldn’t make as much sense, and then all other candidates are either smaller LACs or don’t line up geographically. Definitely hypothetical though, nothing’s changing anytime soon. I’m sure all of the Ivies are content with where they’re at.</p>
<p>I like how people jumped on me saying that I wouldnt get admitted to Cornell, thus it is a great school.
Whatever, stay in your bubbles. I will admit that Cornell is a great school, but a big reason it stays high in the rankings is engineering, and the technical skills like agriculture. Their CAS is the worst in the Ivy League (albeit great generally speaking). If the Ivy league were to kick out a school, it would be Cornell because Cornell is a vocational school that isn’t as selective as the other Ivies. Plus it’s land-grant, and is a clear outlier when compared with the other schools. I think that the Ivy League label is very important to them.</p>
<p>^ Ivy league kick out a school. LOL</p>
<p>In reality professors place high regard for research as oppsed to undergraduate selectivity. 9/10 the professors at Harvard probably ahve a higher regard for their peers at Cornell than at brown or dartmouth</p>
<p>That’s perhaps true. I’m not sure of that psuedo-statistic “9/10 professors from Harvard probably have a higher regard for Cornell than Brown or Dartmouth”</p>
<p>But it’s a valid argument. In many of Cornell’s "specialty’ fields, they are the best in the Ivies. But if you dont want to do engineering, vet school, agriculture/hotel management, (as most Ivy kids dont) then non-Cornell Ivies are the best academic fits.</p>
<p>The ones I have met in research/conferences. Kid are you even in college?</p>
<p>“The solar system had nine planets when I was a kid. Now it has eight.”</p>
<p>Pluto didn’t leave the solar system. It’s still right there in its same orbit and still part of the solar system.</p>
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<p>You don’t know what you’re talking about, bzva. Cornell is outstanding in engineering, as well as law and medicine, two other “vocational” disciplines. But it’s also extremely strong in the humanities, physical sciences, and biological sciences. In fact, if you look at the strength of its faculties across all disciplines, it’s arguably a close fourth in the Ivy League after HYP; or possibly even higher than Y and P if you include engineering. It gets a bad rap because its admissions stats are a little lower than other Ivies, but to some extent that’s because Cornell’s state-supported “contract colleges” are less selective; Engineering and CAS are highly selective.</p>
<p>The idea that Cornell is somehow being propped up by its Ivy status is silly. It was a great school before there was an Ivy League, and like Stanford, Chicago, et al., it wouldn’t need the Ivy label to be recognized for its greatness. I think the schools that most benefit from the Ivy label are Brown, Dartmouth, and maybe Penn. Without the Ivy League cachet, Dartmouth would be just another very good New England LAC, a la Middlebury or Wesleyan. Brown would revert to what it was in the 1950s and 60s, a very good small university but not a research powerhouse and generally considered a “safety” for New England prep school types who didn’t get into HYP. And Penn? Back in my day, everyone knew that Penn was the worst of the Ivies, and there was semi-serious talk that it didn’t even “belong” in the Ivy League. These schools have leveraged their Ivy credentials into becoming highly selective institutions, and at least in Penn’s case actually a much better school than it was 30 years ago (perhaps Brown and Dartmouth have, too, though I don’t know them as well).</p>
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<p>Not once have I ever said that I expected every conference to sponsor every sport. </p>
<p>In fact, quite the contrary, conferences can and should certain members for certain sports as need be. See below. </p>
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<p>But why would they have to be? Consider the Big East. Notre Dame is a fully-fledged member of the Big East despite the fact that its football team does not participate in that conference. , UConn only became a fully-fledged FBS team from the FCS only 8 years ago, Georgetown and Villanova still compete only in the FCS, and St Johns, Seton Hall, Providence, Marquette and DePaul don’t even have football at all. Schools are free to pick and choose which sports they want to run, and which conferences each particular sport should join. </p>
<p>Hence, I would have no problem with CSUB officially joining the Pac-10 for certain sports but not others. Why not? That’s no more incongruous than the juxtaposition of Stanford and Berkeley belonging to the same conference as Arizona State. </p>
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<p>But then that simply begs the question: why are they still “D1” (actually FBS) schools in football at all? After all, they don’t offer athletic scholarships, nor do they participate in bowl games. Nor are they serious candidates for rankings in AP or coach’s poll of the top football teams in the country. Hence, in terms of football, the Ivy League is effectively an FCS conference, on par with the Patriot League, which the Ivy League plays against ever year. For example, for as far as I can remember, the opening game that Harvard plays every season is always against Holy Cross. Always.</p>
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<p>But therein lies the key question - why not? Like I said, the Ivy League is merely an athletic conference. It should therefore admit whoever happens to be athletically compatible. Nor does the school have to be athletically compatible in all sports, as a simple subset of sports is sufficient. </p>
<p>For example, what’s wrong with admitting MIT to the Ivy League for just crew? Or volleyball? Or track? MIT is already a “Division 1” school in those sports, whatever that means (as they don’t offer athletic scholarships either). There’s no requirement that MIT needs to participate in Ivy football or basketball to become members of the league, as like I said, 5 schools who don’t play football at all and 2 who only play within the FCS are still members of the Big East.</p>
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<p>What about their CAS makes it the worst? Do you have proof? Written responses from each student? Do you go to Penn or Cornell or Columbia (the schools with Colleges of Arts and Sciences)? Is there something about Cornell’s curriculum that makes it the worst? Or are you talking out of your arse based on what you’ve seen on CC? The funny part is…I don’t even go to Cornell, but your perception is way off. If you look at the career center sites and post-grad career reports, you’ll see that top companies recruit at Cornell (along with Penn CAS, and Columbia, and Brown, and Dartmouth…see the pattern here?), and you won’t be missing out in life by going to Cornell over Penn (if you got into Wharton, that would be another situation…but even then Cornell has AEM, and it’s not like you’d end up failing in life by enrolling in that program). Even the contract colleges have top programs in their departments. If I wanted to study Animal Science, Fiber apparel design or Agricultural Engineering, why would I kill my wallet to go to a school elsewhere, when I can go to Cornell and pay less (I’m a NY resident)? If you look in the results threads, the standards for admissions are getting higher. I just think that some people around here need to get out of their “Cornell is weak” bubble.</p>
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<p>X___X</p>
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<p>Who are you to tell someone who their best academic fits are? Some people would cringe at the thought of a pre-determined core (Columbia) or complete freedom to do whatever they want (Brown). Some people have somewhat of an idea of what they want to study, and can convey their passions clearly and apply into a major. Some people like living in Ithaca (as my friend said, "it’s awesome to be in the middle of nowhere with thousands of other college kids). So for you (a high school student who hasn’t even attended any of these schools and is sitting on CC trying to condescend others that actually know a bit about top schools and KNOW that Cornell is a gem) is kind of ridiculous. Call it a bubble if you want, but I’ll tell you one thing: your perception of what is a “weak” or “easy” school is wayyyyy off.</p>
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<p>But I think that’s the crux of the debate. Penn did indeed improve dramatically over the last 30 years. Why didn’t Cornell do the same? </p>
<p>I also believe you put the finger on the problem: Cornell’s relatively lax contract college admissions are, unfortunately, pulling the reputation of the rest of the school down. So why doesn’t Cornell do something about that? Maybe Cornell should do a better job of recruiting the very best New York state residents to choose Cornell, hence improving the admissions profile.</p>
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<p>Um, sakky, the Ivy League <em>is</em> officially an FCS (not FBS) conference, just like the Patriot League. For example, look up the official entry for [url=<a href=“http://www.ncaa.com/schools/dartmouth]Dartmouth[/url”>http://www.ncaa.com/schools/dartmouth]Dartmouth[/url</a>] (or any other Ivy) at the NCAA website. Note that the entry for football is “FCS”. The Ivy League has been in the FCS (and Division 1-AA before that) since the 1982 season.</p>
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Um, sakky, Ivy teams are often well ranked in the FCS. For example, Penn is currently ranked #13 or #14 in the various FCS [url=<a href=“http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/football/fcs]polls[/url”>http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/football/fcs]polls[/url</a>]. They would certainly be eligible for the FCS playoffs, except that the Ivies voluntarily decline to participate. This is an unusual, but not unique position; the NESCAC schools do not participate in the Division III football playoffs, even though they would be eligible to do so.</p>
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<p>Look, I don’t think being overly defensive is going to solve the problem. The fact is, somebody has to be last in the Ivy League, and the fact is, Cornell is perceived among many people as being that school. Fair or unfair, that is unfortunately the perception. {If you disagree, then who would you nominate as being in last place instead?} </p>
<p>Now, I agree, that perhaps the problem is merely one of perception. If so, then that points to a strategy for improvement: Cornell should do a better job of marketing itself. Right now, Cornell yields only 48% of its admittees - the worst of the Ivies. Do what you have to do to improve that yield. Cornell should demonstrate that they are indeed not the ‘Last Ivy’, hence convincing more students to want to go to Cornell. </p>
<p>Bclintonk stated that a major problem is that Cornell’s contract colleges run notably weaker admissions regimes than do the rest of Cornell, and, frankly, the rest of the Ivy League. Yet you yourself said that you would benefit as a state resident from attending one of those colleges. So then that offers a clear avenue for improvement: Cornell should make its contract colleges more attractive to the best New York high school students. Right now, let’s face it, most of them do not really want to go there, but would rather go to the other Ivies, MIT, Stanford, or so forth, or, heck, even to Cornell’s other constituent colleges. </p>
<p>Either that, or transfer away as many of the statutory college programs as you can by buying them out. Why not? That’s what Cornell did with the School of Hotel Administration, which used to be a program taught within the statutory home ecology college before being bought out in 1950. Cornell now runs the Hotel Administration program as it pleases, without interference from the state and without being subject to lowered state residency requirements. Another alternative is to turn them into pure graduate schools. Again, why not? That’s what the vet school is. </p>
<p>The upshot is that, whether fair or not, Cornell is indeed seen by many as the ‘worst’ Ivy. I think it’s high time that Cornell work to change that perception.</p>
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No, [url=<a href=“http://www.ncaa.com/schools/mit]MIT[/url”>http://www.ncaa.com/schools/mit]MIT[/url</a>] is classified as a Division III school for all NCAA sports except women’s crew, where they compete in the DI Patriot League.</p>
<p>In theory, there would be nothing wrong with admitting MIT to the Ivy League for crew, just as there is nothing wrong with admitting them to the Patriot League. But in practice, maybe the Ivy League doesn’t see it that way. It seems possible that the Ivy League may not be interested in allowing other schools to claim membership, even if only for one or two sports. </p>
<p>At least I don’t know of any examples. Ice hockey would be an obvious candidate, since there are only six Ivy teams. But as far as the Ivy League is concerned, six Ivy teams seems to be [url=<a href=“http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/mice/2010-11/standings]enough[/url”>http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/mice/2010-11/standings]enough[/url</a>].</p>
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<p>Ah, my mistake - shows how old I’m getting. The Ivy League was part of Division 1-A (the FBS). </p>
<p>But in any case, that actually only elicits even more questions. Why is it then so impossible for the Ivy League admit any of, or, heck, even the entire Patriot League, at least for football? They play them in football every year anyway. </p>
<p>Or, to build on a suggestion previously posed on this thread, what would be so outrageous for Cornell to leave the Ivy League for another conference for certain sports (but not others)? Like I said, schools are free to mix and match teams and conferences as they please.</p>
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<p>But MIT volleyball, (men’s) crew, track, and other sports could be easily “upgraded” to division 1, given that they compete against div 1 schools in those sports already. </p>
<p>After all, it’s just a silly classification system. MIT women’s crew doesn’t offer athletic scholarships despite technically belonging to Division 1. Hence, I don’t see why it would be so difficult for MIT to, say, “upgrade” its men’s crew team to Division 1 as well (and still not offer athletic scholarships). Since MIT wouldn’t be changing any of its actual athletic policies, it would only be a matter of paperwork and perhaps paying some fees to the NCAA.</p>
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Technically, it would be quite difficult – because men’s crew is not an NCAA sport. There is no NCAA Division I (or II, or III) for men’s crew. Blame Title IX – men get sports like football or wrestling where there is no women’s counterpart, so the same must also be true in reverse.</p>
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Well, that is baffling. It’s almost as if the Ivy League prefers to act like a selective, members-only club.</p>
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<p>Then that actually makes the transition even easier. One could have MIT join the Ivy League in men’s crew in “Division 0”, or whatever the heck else you want to call it. If the NCAA doesn’t run it, then there are no regulations to abide by. </p>
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<p>Alright then, so now we’re getting to brass tacks. The issue has nothing to do with actual regulations, but rather with social snobbery.</p>
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Sure, it might be possible for MIT to “upgrade”, just as I previously suggested for Johns Hopkins. However, it’s likely JHU would, overall, be a better candidate for DI sports than MIT. </p>
<p>JHU’s two DI teams (in lacrosse) are more successful than MIT’s’ single DI team (in women’s crew). Furthermore, JHU’s DIII teams (in other sports) seem to be generally more successful than MIT’s DIII teams (based on a quick review of the NACDA rankings). Obviously schools can change their athletic cultures, but for now I would have to give JHU the edge over MIT in that regard.</p>