What would happen if a school left the Ivy League?

[Corbett]

<p>

lright then, so now we’re getting to brass tacks. The issue has nothing to do with actual regulations, but rather with social snobbery.

Social snobbery is a factor, and so is academic snobbery (which is not necessarily the same thing). </p>

<p>And that is why sakky should reconsider the assertion, made in post #58 above, that:

A conference is purely an athletic administrative body, nothing more.

</p>

<p>That may be true of many, perhaps most, NCAA conferences – but it is not true of the Ivy League. The Ivy League does serve as an athletic administrative body, but it is also a club. An exclusive club.</p>

[Danielle2400]

<p>I have been told by a Bowdoin alum that at one point Bowdoin College was invited to join the Ivy League but declined because of the requested changes to course offerings and other important aspects that would have had to occur if Bowdoin became a member. Does any one else know if this true or urban legend?</p>

[Corbett]

<p>It’s an urban legend that circulates at lots of good schools in the northeast. Note that the Ivy League, as an athletic conference, was organized only in 1954. So it’s not like the events are shrouded in the mists of history. </p>

<p>Apart from the original eight, the only school that was, in a way, ever invited to join the Ivy League was [url=&lt;a href=“http://vcencyclopedia.vassar.edu/coeducation/the-vassar-yale-study.html]Vassar[/url”&gt;The Vassar-Yale Study - Vassar Encyclopedia - Vassar College]Vassar[/url</a>]. In the 1960s, the Ivies were going co-ed. Yale (which was all-male) began serious merger talks with Vassar (which was all-female). Under this plan, Vassar students would have become the “female Yalies” and therefore Ivy Leaguers. But the Vassar community ultimately opted to stay independent, turn down the opportunity for Yale degrees, and go co-ed on their own.</p>

<p>Historically, there were also unsuccessfull efforts to merge Rutgers with Princeton, and MIT with Harvard. But these efforts occurred long before the “Ivy League” was formally established.</p>

[bzva74]

<p>Cornell is the weakest Ivy. As someone else said, if it’s not Cornell, who is it?
Cornell’s weak yield suggests that it’s perceived as weak.</p>

[behappy7]

<p>Brza, your ill informed comments only demonstrate your ignorance. Cornell CAS admitted only 15% of its applicants, similar to Penn SAS, despite Penn’s more aggressive use of ED. Most of Cornell’s CAS departments are very highly ranked, many in the top 10. CAS students benefit from the amazing breadth of their education, including their ability to take the 2000 classes offered in Cornell’s more specialized schools.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

I think the schools that most benefit from the Ivy label are Brown, Dartmouth, and maybe Penn. Without the Ivy League cachet, Dartmouth would be just another very good New England LAC, a la Middlebury or Wesleyan. Brown would revert to what it was in the 1950s and 60s, a very good small university but not a research powerhouse and generally considered a “safety” for New England prep school types who didn’t get into HYP.

</p>

<p>Very well stated, bclintonk. ITA about Dartmouth and Brown.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>bzva74, you’re a high school senior. Nothing wrong with that; I have two high school seniors myself. But what possible basis do you have for “knowing” reputations of universities? Clue: What overwrought high school seniors think of different schools has absolutely nothing to do with anything; high school seniors are notorious for having, well, a weak knowledge base, focused mostly on innuendo and third-hand info, and not knowing what the real world is like.</p>

[OldMoney]

<p>bzva74, if Cornell filled >40% of their incoming class ED (like the other ivies with ED programs), its yield would go up and match the other ivies that you seem to respect so much? </p>

<p>You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. Come back after you graduate college and your perceptions might be a bit more…mature?</p>

[cdhs34]

<p>Not sure why there is so much ‘Cornell hate’ in this thread. If people look beyond simple stats which seem to consume their posting styles, they would realize that Cornell offers a myriad of academic opportunities. For instance their atmospheric science undergraduate program is ranked in the top 5 nationwide and that major is not offered at any of the other ivys. Some people enjoy the solitude of Ithaca including the weather and the absolutely beautiful campus. </p>

<p>Yet I am a tad biased, hehe…</p>

[emeraldtree2]

<p>Isn’t Stanford in CA? so, it wouldn’t be able to be part of the ivy league, anyway.</p>

[sakky]

<p>

And that is why sakky should reconsider the assertion, made in post #58 above, that:</p>

<p>A conference is purely an athletic administrative body, nothing more.</p>

<p>That may be true of many, perhaps most, NCAA conferences – but it is not true of the Ivy League. The Ivy League does serve as an athletic administrative body, but it is also a club. An exclusive club.

</p>

<p>I should reconsider? Um, Corbett, I was being deliberately provocative to prove a point. The Ivy League should be just an athletic conference. After all, that was the ostensible reason why it was established in the first place. And it is indisputably true that a conference is a athletic administrative body, nothing more.</p>

<p>But as we all know, the Ivy League has taken on greater meaning as much more than just an athletic conference, but also an institutionalized brand of social class. Hence, any reasons why the Ivy League will never accept new members have nothing to do with the specific rules that comprise a conference itself, but rather with other (socio-political) factors.</p>

[bzva74]

<p>So are you saying that Brown or Dartmouth are the weakest Ivies?</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Sigh. No - we’re just saying that if it weren’t for the Ivy status / cachet, Brown and Dartmouth would just be a fine university / fine college but not appreciably different from many other (mostly northeastern) fine universities and colleges. </p>

<p>Which doesn’t make them WEAK. For goodness sake. It just means that the label of Ivy gave them additional social cachet.</p>

[sakky]

<p>Pizzagirl, I’m sure that what people mean when they say ‘weak’, that’s shorthand for: ‘weak relative to the other Ivies’. </p>

<p>And like I said, like it or not, somebody has to be overall last in the Ivy League. To be fair, even being last in the Ivy League still means that you’re one of the best schools in the world. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, somebody still has to be last. Who is it going to be?</p>

[bzva74]

<p>Im not arguing that, kid (see, I can use condescending pet names, too!).</p>

<p>Out of all of the Ivies, disregarding agriculture, engineering, and all those obscure farming majors, Cornell is the weakest. Their sciences are fairly strong, but their humanities are the weakest in the Ivy League.</p>

<p>If they arent weakest, who is?</p>

[sakky]

<p>

if Cornell filled >40% of their incoming class ED (like the other ivies with ED programs), its yield would go up and match the other ivies that you seem to respect so much?

</p>

<p>Ok, then why doesn’t Cornell do that? Seems like a savvy strategy to me.</p>

[OldMoney]

<p>Ask Cornell.</p>

[lapras]

<p>@bzva74, you still haven’t answered my question of what makes Cornell the weakest in your eyes. Is it the acceptance rate? What about the humanities makes it so bad? What makes Dartmouth’s humanities stronger (vs Cornell’s)?</p>

[cdhs34]

<p>If you take out major programs out of the ivys, then they too are weaker. You cannot just take out engineering, architecture, and agriculture sciences and say well then the rest of the college is weak. It seems to me many are too caught up in ranking. The thread is not ‘name the weakest ivy,’ it is what would happen if a school left the ivy league. Who cares who is the weakest? I do not think anyone in HYP is going to look down upon someone in the the other ivy league schools. Some people need to get this idea of superficial notion of name brands out of their system.</p>

[warblersrule]

<p>

@bzva74

Their sciences are fairly strong, but their humanities are the weakest in the Ivy League.

NRC Rankings - Humanities
2. Princeton
3. Harvard
4. Columbia
5. Cornell
6. Yale
…
9. Penn
…
17. Brown
…
Dartmouth unranked</p>

<p>NRC Rankings - All non-zero fields
3. Harvard
4. Princeton
…
8. Yale
9. Cornell
…
11. Columbia
…
14. Penn
…
25. Brown
…
49. Dartmouth</p>

<p>NRC Rankings - All fields
4. Cornell
…
8. Columbia
9. Penn (tie)
12. Harvard
…
14. Princeton
…
16. Yale
…
27. Brown
…
Dartmouth unranked</p>

<p>Note: Due to the lack of specific rankings in the new NRC report, these are the 1995 scores.</p>

<p>This seems to support an earlier claim:

@bclintonk

Cornell is outstanding in engineering, as well as law and medicine, two other “vocational” disciplines. But it’s also extremely strong in the humanities, physical sciences, and biological sciences. In fact, if you look at the strength of its faculties across all disciplines, it’s arguably a close fourth in the Ivy League after HYP; or possibly even higher than Y and P if you include engineering. It gets a bad rap because its admissions stats are a little lower than other Ivies, but to some extent that’s because Cornell’s state-supported “contract colleges” are less selective; Engineering and CAS are highly selective.

</p>