In terms of potential recruited student athletes avoiding colleges where their sport’s team has poor behavior, there may be fewer ways to find that out about that than at those colleges which publish fraternity chapter conduct records, GPAs, etc… That the potential recruited student athlete has to commit to the college and therefore the team before arriving there is one reason why it is a more difficult situation than with fraternities, where a student can choose whether or not to join a fraternity and which one if so after gaining some familiarity with them after arriving on campus.
This is no different than any close knit social group. You help your friends. It just so happened that this fraternity attracted a good share of very career minded kids – maybe because they weren’t born with silver spoons in their mouths. Like it or not, networking/creating relationships is a valuable life skill.
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I understand what you are saying, but let’s be realistic, not many college kids are “close knit” friends with 50 year old hiring partners at IB firms, or even with younger associates at such firms. But thanks to fraternities, they can do one better, they can be brothers. One big happy extended family. It’s the “good ol’ boy” network in action.
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I was not referring to that situation. This was upperclassman or recent grads helping underclassmen understand the recruiting process and describing their summer or current job situation.
Having actually worked (and been involved in hiring) in a Big Law firm and and a bulge bracket IB, the impact of the old boy’s network is greatly exaggerated. These businesses are driven by one thing, profits. If you are not generating them, you are gone pretty quickly. When hiring, we always hired based on proven experience or educational achievement if entry level. The only type of old boys network that I encountered were friends or clients asking me to consider their kid or friend for a job. If their resume looked like they were qualified, I would put them in the general pile of candidates to consider.
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Ask brothers and pledges at the fraternities at Dartmouth and similar schools whether they think/hope it will get them a leg up for desired jobs. That’s part of the draw.
Anyway, here’s a 2013 article on the subject.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-12-23/secret-handshakes-greet-frat-brothers-on-wall-street
And the discussion here.
I’d say their hopes are misplaced. The GPA cutoff for the top IB’s and consulting firms is like 3.7. Doesn’t matter what handshake you know. They would also have to assume that someone in a position of hiring power is a “brother”. The statistical probability of that is miniscule. It’s a better and more reasonable bet that you choose a feeder school, like Dartmouth, in the first place if you get in if that is your desired career path. I’d agree that there are institutional advantages. A 3.7 kid from Dartmouth is likely to have an easier (but not guaranteed) path to Goldman Sachs or BCG than a 3.7 kid from Rutgers for a variety of reasons. Some may view it as a manifestation of entrenched privilege, others that it is a practical screening device for businesses.
The Bloomberg article is behind a paywall, so I cannot react. I can only relay what I saw and what I know from friends and colleagues in the business. But the conversation digresses. My initial point was that not all fraternities create an environment that encourages anti-social predatory behavior and there are a lot of smart, ambitious and social kids in the Greek system. My son had a positive experience as he made many good friends he might not have ever met. As all friends do, they help each other.
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I think this thread shows that much of this debate is really about power. There are few things more innate to humans than their desire to impose control on others around them. Dictating to others who they can and can associate with is a pretty strong expression of power.
I guess we are not stopping with fraternities.
You and others seem intent on treating a statistical correlation as a personal accusation, but it is not an attack on every single fraternity house and member to note that, statistically, men in fraternities are more likely to commit sexual assault than other men on campus.
And while I agree this discussion is about attempts to impose power and control over others, I find it ironic that, in a conversation about the power dynamics of sexual assault on college campuses, you view fraternities as the real victims.
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Thanks. That was an insightful post. My son is considering rushing a fraternity down the line; I’ve often wondered how they work at rigorous schools.
Thanks. I fear that the one thing I got most right was “I don’t think this will change anyone’s mind”
I would encourage you to look at the individual fraternities at your son’s school. They, like colleges, can be quite different, and what is right for one person can be very wrong for another. Again, like colleges.
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That’s the approach I’ve counseled, though I told him that waiting for spring was probably best so he gets better acclimated to college and gets to know the reputations of the different fraternities.
I didn’t go Greek when I was in college, but it was something I considered at one point.
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While I understand the potential networking/social benefits, I’m more worried about peer pressure at an age when many young people haven’t yet fully developed their self-confidence/self-respect to be able to “tell someone off”. While deadly outcomes, like today’s, are rare - each single one should give academic institutions ample reason to make “terminal”, even if unpopular, changes.
Fraternities should be completely stand-alone, off-campus entities - separate from the academic institution. They should not in any way be endorsed/promoted by complete web sites run by the college, e.g., Fraternity and Sorority Life | Student Success, which will only increase the “stakes” for some personality types to want to fit in - at (literally) any cost.
They are not in any way part of the academic role that colleges profess to play, consequently, colleges mustn’t get “intertwined” with them - let there be a healthy and complete separation. Those who are interested can seek them out on their own, elsewhere in town.
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Fraternities at many universities already are separate. Colleges wash their hands of the ones with rampant drug use, hazing violations, sexual assault claims. All that does is shift any liability away from the college. It doesn’t stop alumni from purchasing the houses so the fraternities can stay there, it doesn’t stop the fraternities from recruiting pledges and it doesn’t stop the drinking/drugging/hazing issues. My daughter’s college has a message on their Greek Life webpage that lists the fraternities that are no longer affiliated with her college, and warns that prospective pledges (and other students) should be wary. It doesn’t stop parents from allowing their kids to pledge these fraternities (they willingly pay the dues), and it doesn’t stop female students from going to parties there.
I was shocked at the difference between how regimented and rules-oriented the sororities were at my older daughter’s ACC school, compared to the “Animal House” environment of some (not all) of the fraternities. They all have national organizations to answer to - so odd that the sorority orgs jump in at a moment’s notice to police relatively minor violations, while the fraternity orgs seemingly wait until there’s a death.
My daughter had a great experience in her sorority, but I would think twice about allowing my son (if I had one) to pledge a fraternity.
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My point is - there is no reason for any “Greek Life” web page in the first place, for listing Greek events on campus/semester calendars, or any other kind of “accommodations”.
I understand that. However, if the College no longer participates in/enables the recruitment/pledging circus, their will be less perceived “pressure” on susceptible High-Schoolers to needing/wanting to be “part of it”.
Of course, their choice if they are absolutely determined to be part of that. I just feel that by uncoupling fraternities from the College, they will stop coercing those who maybe more vulnerable to think that it’s part of a “normal” College experience.
I wonder how many of the folks on this thread that are vehemently against fraternities and sororities actually participated in Greek life while in college?
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As a practical matter, some colleges try to trade recognition / association for good behavior / rule following. However, it does not always work, in that some colleges have plenty of students who are willing to join fraternities that are unwilling to abide by even minimal rules (example, many of the fraternities at University of Colorado cut ties with the school after the school wanted them to obey a few more rules after a death in one of the fraternities; most of these fraternities are still there, although there are some fraternities that are willing to abide by the college’s rules for college recognition as student groups).
Private colleges have a bigger hammer that they can deploy, which is prohibiting students (or some students, such as new frosh) from participating in fraternities.
Well- there is a reason, as there are plenty of reputable Greek organizations that deserve to exist and be recognized (not to mention religious and academic-based fraternities).
The college’s involvement has little to no influence over recruitment. Most fraternities reach out to prospective members over the summer, and incoming freshmen women have also already made their top sorority lists and gotten the recommendation letters over the summer - all without any prompting from the college.
It is a part of a (normal) great college experience for many. Unfortunately, like in many situations, there are bad apples who attract the media attention. As I believe I said upthread, there is little media interest in thousands of dollars raised for charitable organizations by the many reputable Greek organizations. Additionally, many of the drug, alcohol & sexual assault hazards can happen in countless college scenarios that don’t involve Greek life, so snuffing them out isn’t going to fix those problems.
If you’re against it, then simply don’t agree to finance it on behalf of your son. They aren’t going to induct members who can’t pay the fees.
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Where does the contact info come from? (Not a rhetorical question - I truly don’t know.)
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Usually from older high school classmates, friends, alumni or siblings who are in (or were in) the fraternity. It can be hard for boys who don’t have any connections at all, to get a bid.
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Full disclosure: I did NOT. I also never saw action in wartimes, or mugged someone at gunpoint - yet I still will form an opinion about those things.
I’m not “vehemently against”, I’m suggesting that Universities should focus on their core obligations, and let fraternities/sororities pursue their own goals independently.
When some impressionable young people are at least as anxious about if and which fraternity they might afford/get accepted into, rather than how they’ll do on their papers, then this is just not healthy.
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