Pretty sure it’s just that no one wants them to be rapists and perpetrators of sexual assault.
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As do I, but I’m guessing we’re talking about a smaller population than is being suggested here.
The references study is a 2005 study by Loh et al. It involved surveys of 325 students (mostly freshmen) at a single university. Of this, 215 completed the pre-assessment and 2 followups. Of the 215, the number of people who stated they committed rape is 5. Given that 24% of the cohort are fraternity members, a factor of 3 means that equal numbers of rapists are in the fraternity and non-fraternity subsets. I don’t know how they split 5 into equal parts, but this whole “factor of 3” means we see 2 or possibly 3 when the expectation is around 1.
I would be wary of drawing sweeping conclusions from this.
Are all these perpetrators white males? Everyone jumps to the Animal House stereotype.
Why does it matter?
No need to. There are numerous other studies that indicate that fraternity members are more likely perpetrate sexual assault than non-fraternity members. Many were discussed in that same link.
Are you suggesting that all the studies are wrong?
@mtmind you seem so certain, yet don’t offer citations. So I went to Google scholar and searched myself. This is the 1st result that came up:
The abstract:
Fraternity membership, rape myths, and sexual aggression on a college campus
Martin D Schwartz, Carol A Nogrady
Violence Against Women 2 (2), 148-162, 1996
A rich theoretical and ethnographic literature exists suggesting that fraternity men are particularly prone to be sexual victimizers of women on college campuses. Yet, there is thin empirical evidence for this contention. Here, in a sample from a large midwestern university, there was strong evidence uncovered that male peer support for victimization of women exists, and that it is related to extensive alcohol use. However, there is no evidence that fraternity men are different on these factors from other men. A conclusion is that anti-rape efforts must be broader than only targeting fraternities, and that alcohol education must be a high priority.
Fraternities, athletic teams, and rape: Importance of identification with a risky group
Stephen E Humphrey, Arnold S Kahn
Journal of interpersonal violence 15 (12), 1313-1322, 2000
This study examined the relationship between sexual assault and membership in high-risk fraternities and athletic teams. Although past research has identified fraternities and athletic teams as high-risk groups for sexual assault, the findings have been inconclusive. Based on student perceptions, we separated fraternities and athletic teams into high-risk and low-risk groups. A survey of 182 male students, including those who were members of three fraternities and five athletic teams as well as nonmembers, indicated that the high-risk groups scored significantly higher than the low-risk groups on measures of sexual aggression, hostility toward women, and male peer support endorsing sexual aggression. These findings showed that some fraternity or athletic team members are more likely to commit sexual assault than males in the general student population, but this is not true for all such groups. The results help explain inconsistencies reported by previous researchers.
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No, I am just suggesting that the study you used as evidence for your belief is wrong.
A good rule of thumb for social sciences is that if the effect is large (and a factor of 3 is huge) if you trace back you will find that the number of individuals is small.
The second paper does suggest that some fraternities and athletic teams are “high-risk” but others are not.
That does come back to the question I posed earlier – what is the best way for a person considering joining a fraternity to know which chapters are “high-risk” and should be avoided and which are not risk and worthy of consideration? It is unlikely that the “high-risk” ones will openly advertise a tendency toward sexual misconduct, hazing, or other problematic behaviors. If the “high-risk” fraternities could be identified and avoided by new members, they would die off, and their scandals would no longer occur to cause reputational damage to other fraternities.
The same question can apply to high school students being recruited by colleges for their sports teams.
Multiple posters conflating all members of fraternities with sexual assault would seem to be making a different point.
@GKUnion brings up an interesting point. The fraternity “problem” may be solved by a rapidly shrinking candidate pool. Fewer men on campus = fewer fraternities.
First, it isn’t my “belief." I was just providing you with the correct citations for the 3x claim. I don’t know if that particular number is spot on, or not.
Second, the 2019 study involved over 12,000 students, and "found that men in fraternities were more likely to commit alcohol-involved sexual assault than other men.” It also referenced a number of other papers, including a 2007 “review of 15 studies involving approximately 5,000 participants found that being in a fraternity was significantly associated with committing sexual assault (Murnen & Kohlman, 2007).” Whether or not fraternity members are 3x more likely to rape, there is ample evidence that fraternity members are more likely to perpetrate sexual assault.
On the contrary, I referenced the studies supporting the 3x figure about which @MITPhysicsAlum had expressed confusion, and provided a link to a 2019 study which not only summarizes those studies, it also "found that men in fraternities were more likely to commit alcohol-involved sexual assault than other men.”
The citation is above. Here is the Abstract, with my bolds:
We examined the prevalence and repeat offenses of college men, including fraternity men and student athletes, taking advantage of someone sexually while under the influence of alcohol. Preexisting data from the Core Alcohol and Other Drug Survey included a sample of 12,624 college men at 49 community and 4-year colleges. Results provide further evidence that the problem of campus rape is largely one of serial perpetration. More than 87% of alcohol-involved sexual assault was committed by serial perpetrators. Fraternity men and student athletes were significantly more likely to commit alcohol-involved sexual assault than other men on campus.
The study also provides brief summaries of the recent related literature, all of which are more recent than the abstracts you listed. They are too numerous to list all of them here, but as an example here are two I found interesting:
Three of the most important behaviors that distinguish men who engage in sexual assault perpetration from men who choose not to are (a) consuming alcohol 2 or more times a week, (b) having peer support for behaving in an emotionally violent manner toward women, and (c) having peer support for being physically and sexually violent toward women. Interestingly, a man having all three behavioral features is 9 times more likely to engage in sexually assaultive behavior than a man who does not (DeKeseredy & Schwartz, 2014)
Evidence suggests there are some fraternities that have particularly dangerous cultures. Current research suggests that some men are drawn to certain fraternities where they believe they will be better able to commit sexual violence. Evidence suggests that these fraternities reinforce hostility toward and violence against women (Boyle, 2015).
I believe @ucbalumnus was referring above to the second one.
Of course no one has done this. Here is how the article I linked above put it with reference to rape (my bolds added) . . .
These studies left little doubt that fraternity men are more likely to commit rape. Still, not all fraternity men rape and not all fraternities themselves permit such behavior. Evidence suggests there are some fraternities that have particularly dangerous cultures. Current research suggests that some men are drawn to certain fraternities where they believe they will be better able to commit sexual violence. Evidence suggests that these fraternities reinforce hostility toward and violence against women (Boyle, 2015).
But why are fraternities and rape so strongly associated? Part of the answer may involve the pressure fraternity men experience to conform. For example, fraternity men are pressured to conform to masculine norms, to uphold those norms, and to accept the objectification of women. These three characteristics are found to be the conduit between being in a fraternity and accepting sexual violence (Seabrook, Ward, & Giaccardi, 2018).
This perhaps isn’t the best place to get into the weeds on every single study, but it seems there is ample information out there for those who care to dig into it. None of it is particularly surprising though. Sure, not all fraternity members do these things, and not all fraternities allow (and/or cover up) these things, but to deny that at many of these fraternities this culture exists? Seems naive.
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Kids wanting to “go Greek” quickly learn the personalities of sororities & fraternities shortly after arriving on campus (most actually know the 411 even before they move in). D21’s university doesn’t do a sorority rush until spring semester but she can already tell you about the general reputations/personalities of each sorority. Additionally every university should have information on the statuses of every Greek organization at their location - even if the organization is no longer recognized (I’d be shocked if a uni didn’t have that resource). D’s school is very forthcoming about “warning” parents about the fraternities that are no longer recognized by the university but continue to exist.
Many of the responses on this thread paint Greek organizations with a very broad, Google-stained brush. Yes, there have been horrible, avoidable tragedies which should result in involved chapters being shut down, and criminal charges being filed, but there are also countless positives which don’t fit the sensationalist headline narrative of today’s clickbait media.
Someone mentioned the philanthropy upthread - each national organization represents a chosen charity and requires their local university chapters to not only fundraise for that charity but also to do service projects and raise awareness. In her 4 years of college, my D13’s sorority raised a healthy 5-figure amount for the local domestic violence shelter. Each year, it was all hands on deck getting ready for their annual fundraising event - it was taken very seriously and the work put into it by the VP of philanthropy, with limited financial resources, would rival professional fully-funded charitable events.
Academics and GPA’s are taken seriously by most Greek organizations. At D13’s university, the sororities competed to be the organization with highest GPA. Most will ask for GPA’s during recruitment and if yours is too low, you may not receive a bid. D21’s boyfriend is going through fraternity recruitment at an SEC school and he has to do mandatory library hours every night during the week. The fraternity has an app that tracks each person’s location and time spent at the library. Even if they have nothing to do, they have to be in the library.
No one is denying that close friendships and bonds can be formed outside of Greek life, but for some kids who may need a little social “push”, joining a Greek organization can be the catalyst they need to feel a sense of belonging. For others it can be a place where they can serve in positions that give them real-life experience in their fields of study (D31 was the VP of finance one year and had to oversee her sorority’s accounts - totaling over $800K, and disburse monies to pay for house expenses and employee salaries (chef & housemother).
Greek life is either a good fit or it’s not. If it’s the latter, then the fact that others choose to join shouldn’t affect your child’s enjoyment of their university experience. I don’t understand the movement to abolish it completely by those who have never even experienced it.
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It matters because this thread has a not so subtle racist white male sexual predator tone to it, in reference to a rather large group of people. It would be helpful to know the percentage of sexual predators on college campuses that are white males. Maybe it’s 99%…I don’t know…but neither does anyone else here. Some opinions expressed here border on bigotry, and that’s sad.
Maybe it’s because about 99.9% of women, including me, have been subjected to unwanted sexual advances by men. We’re beyond fed up by it.
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@GKUnion, I don’t believe that any of the correlations in the discussed studies were limited only to white men in fraternities (or only white men on athletic teams), nor did any of the data suggest that white fraternity members (or white men generally) were responsible for 99% of the sexual assaults on campus, so I’m still not sure the significance of your proposed study.
That would be sad, if true. But I’m not sure it is.
- Is it bigoted to be of the opinion that fraternity men are more likely to commit sexual assault than other men on campuses?
- If not this, then, specifically, what opinions have been expressed that “border on bigotry?”
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“I like to hire independent thinkers so frat/sororities types often don’t move ahead.”
“I’m not a fan of fraternities. At best, they’re a breeding ground for drugs and underage drinking mixed with criminal mischief. At worst, they’re racially segregated organizations that behave like a middle-class version of prison gangs.”
“There is a movement called Abolish Greek Life, which is actually a movement to abolish “white” greek life (this is stated on their website). It is extreme and absolute, with no nuance.”
“Like so many things Americans of a certain demographic like to romanticize - I expect Greek life will be phased out by the coming generations of college students. How are the middle aged men who support their families by reliving their glory days working for these organizations going to make a living?”
“I’m not a fan of greek life. Cliquey and exclusive. Binge drinking and rape culture are far too prevalent. Racially segregated.”
“For all of what is going on in our society racially, I am frankly shocked that fraternities and sororities are allowed to continue as they are.”
“There are lots of fraternities, and virtually none of them are good. For decades, they’ve been a fertile breeding ground for parties, underage drinking, drugs, or worse. Now they’re becoming more and more racially and politically segregated.”
You and I must have very different ideas about what constitutes a bigoted opinion.
Think about it, people that share the same opinion rarely see the forest for the trees. Why would you think something that reinforces your stereotype is bigoted? I totally get it.
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This has been an interesting thread to follow. Frats were not a thing when I went to college. I think there was 1 on campus. My kid joined a frat at my alma mater. Reputationally, it was perceived as more inclusive and less “jockey”. Many of my S’s brothers are at IB’s or Consulting, and many of the older brothers helped my S through the process as he helped younger brothers through the process when it was his turn.
I have little doubt that the findings quoted are accurate:
But I don’t think frats necessarily encourage or create an environment conducive to all 3 behaviors, certainly not all fraternities. In fact, certain sports teams and other social groups, organized or unorganized, may be as bad if not worse culprits. Kids that are bullies, misogynists, racists or otherwise predators will be that in any environment and they will find like kids with or without fraternities. I do agree though that schools have a responsibility to monitor, regulate and sanction any groups, including Greeks, if they are in any way affiliated with the school.
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“bigoted” implies there’s no truth to it, as if it’s just prejudice.
Unfortunately there are lots of case studies and research papers that show that putting young men together without supervision is not a good idea that leads, in too many cases, to abuse.
Someone upthread asked how dorms are different: for one, dorms have RAs. Dorms are on campus, which is patrolled at night. Dorms aren’t under the sole juridiction of “older” (21-22) brothers. Dorms can’t let older people (alumni, randos…) in. Dorms can’t organize huge parties, simply because there are only so many people you can fit in lounges and student rooms. Dorm residents aren’t all bound by a “brotherhood” code that makes it near impossible to report something to campus police or the Honor Board.
If you say “my fraternity didn’t do any of that”… I think that’s part of where the dispute comes from: some universities don’t tolerate students who trash off campus houses or find it fun to see how many freshmen will not make it to the sleeping porch or where sexual assaults are repeatedly reported. And some universities… do. Some fraternities wouldn’t in a million years do this. And some would. Depending on where and when you attended college, your perception would be very different.
But even if you (and I) didn’t live it doesn’t make other people’s negative experiences false. And all the deaths, all the hazing… we can’t deny it exists.
Some campuses have started working on these issues: publishing each chapter’s GPA and misdemeanors, having a clear process to deal with infractions, zero-tolerance policy on hazing, having frats as part of dorms or without houses or with houses on or off campus, with/without supervision, not housing brothers (or athletes) together…
The history of Greek life at Penn State or at Denison is a good mirror of the way fraternities have evolved, under pressure often but also because of internal pressures.
So, it’s not just a matter of where you attended college, but of when: if your fraternity had evolved when you started college to “no pledge period” or if it had become co-ed or become one of the “smart frats” or if it was known for taking pictures of unconscious, naked classmates to post on a private FB page or if it was a fraternity known for hazing or where a death took place, your opinion would be very different. And it would be very different if you’re a fraternity brother in 2020 or were one in the 1990s or in the 1960s – even your perception of what’s okay and what’s not would be quite different.
(For instance, there was no support for gay brothers, the concept of “consent” wasn’t quite there yet, body or sex positivity wasn’t even a concept…)
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Oh . . . so you think my stereotype is bigoted . . . but is it really bigoted to believe that fraternity men are more likely to commit sexual assault than other men on campuses?
Because that’s my opinion, and it is supported by studies, observation, and experience. Is that the “bigoted” stereotype? Or is it something else?
It is a bit off the topic of sexual assault, but do you see why it might bother non-greek students that fraternity members provide this sort of advantage to their “brothers?” I’ll probably be called a bigot for saying so, but this is the sort of thing that makes people believe that fraternities exist at least in part to circumvent attempts to make opportunities (in and after college) more equitable and to preserve the “good old boy” way of doing things.
Just be clear, what you are quoting is from the study I linked. I quoted it because the conclusions interesting, but I agree that not all fraternity chapters encourage or create an environment conducive to all 3 things. But many do, and we are talking about greek life as a whole rather than about particular “brothers” or houses. Generally, fraternity/greek life has tended to encourage and/or create a culture conducive to such things as compared to non-fraternities. I really don’t think that this is in serious dispute.
I agree. If the original question was “What is your opinion of the culture of male college athletics?” we could be having a very similar conversation. But I don’t see this as being particularly redeeming with regard to fraternities.
Again I agree. But IMO schools haven’t all that successful in so doing. It turns out that, oftentimes, the social structure of greek life makes it very difficult to meaningfully reform.
This what I find most interesting about this recent period of anti-greek sentiment, as well as the movement to ban such organizations: Much of it is coming from within the fraternities and sororities. Members who would like to see reform have come to the conclusion that, within the social structure of greek life, meaningful reform isn’t going to happen, and that it may make more sense to get rid of it all together. See this article, for example. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/01/style/abolish-greek-life-college-frat-racism.html
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