When does diversity shopping become racism?

Applying to College
101

<p>sybbie719,</p>

<p>I do not have a copy of A Dream Deferred on hand. Nevertheless, I remember Dr. Steele recounting how in the decades before Proposition 209, Asian enrollment kept increasing at very high rates throughout the UC system despite lack of preferential treatment. By contrast, Black enrollment increased by less than three percentage points during the same time period.</p>

<p>If by affirmative action you mean aggressive nondiscrimination, then without a doubt, Asians benefited. If by affirmative action you mean preferential treatment, then, no, Asians have not benefited from this system to a significant extent.</p>

<p>I assume that "like they used to be" means 99.9% White. If you really think the number of qualified White applicants dwarfs the number of qualified Asian, Black, Hispanic, and Native American applicants that much, then I have no comment.</p>

102

<p>Response to Tarhunt's point about legacy preferences.</p>

<p>Put it this way.</p>

<p>It is my understanding that certain students are admitted under legacy preferences with the assumption that generous donations will come in the future.</p>

<p>So, if a qualified student is edged to make room for a weaker legacy admit, the former suffers but many others stand to gain. Maybe the donation can fund construction of new buildings (e.g. libraries, colleges, dorms, etc). Maybe it can create an endowed professorship position. Maybe the university can acquire a new collection of books. And so forth.</p>

<p>In other words, real and tangible benefits could result from admitting the child of a deep-pocketed alum.</p>

<p>By contrast, "diversity" has far more questionable and vague benefits.</p>

103

<p>
[quote]
In other words, real and tangible benefits could result from admitting the child of a deep-pocketed alum.</p>

<p>By contrast, "diversity" has far more questionable and vague benefits.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In your opinion. </p>

<p>Do you honestly think there is no value in being exposed to other cultures?</p>

104

<p>^ There is value, but the value is much less quantifiable - and quantifiable things are neat and easy to use in discourse, whereas diversity, with its "questionable and vague" benefits, is much harder to evaluate. </p>

<p>^^^^^ (Easy, racism. Its much easier to blame the black guy than it is to blame the white one.)</p>

<p>You're giving the people who complain about AA too little credit. I think most EVERYONE can agree that AA is really great when it helps those who HAVE been disadvantaged throughout high school get a little bit of a break in the college admissions process (I mean come on, how do you expect a kid coming from a poor family who attends a poorly funded school to do well at a place like Intel or whatever?!). </p>

<p>HOWEVER - AA ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY SUCKS - S-U-C-K - SUCKS when it gives advantage to racial minorities who come from affluent families, those who have had every advantage affluent whites or asians have had. How fair is it when a black kid who comes from a middle to upper middle class family gets a break on the admissions process because and ONLY because of his/her SKIN COLOR?! I have a few black friends that had stats and such below the averages who got in, and have a friend now who has stats MUCH below the averages who is being courted by so many top LACs its ridiculous! Was HE disadvantaged? NO! He's coming from an upper middle class family that sends three kids to private school at 15K+ a pop per year. He's got a GPA of 3.1 and schools like Bates/Williams/Swarthmore are falling all over themselves to get him. An Iowa LAC offered him a scholarship to come to their school without him showing any interest (he didn't apply). Do kids like my friend deserve those special advantages? Clearly not.</p>

<p>BUT</p>

<p>Do those (of any skin color) who have grown up disadvantaged deserve the benefits of AA? By all means - YES!</p>

<p>Calling it racism is an oversimplification.</p>

105

<p>I think you missed my point. The question posed was why is it that people blame affirmative action for not getting into schools, when they could just as easily blame legacies.</p>

<p>My answer was that its easier for people to blame black people.</p>

106

<p>Just browsing: Yes, ignoring the whole "but a Stanford professor swears he saw the twins in a supermarket one day" thing...freakonomics isn't too bad a source.</p>

<p>Karupt: Aren't you just slightly overreacting? Mexicans aren't an ethnic group (most Mexicans are ethnically mestizo), making your argument just as illogical.</p>

107

<p>Freakonomics is a fantasic and very interesting read. It certainly changed the way I look at data and information, and presents a series of quite mind-boggling interesting analyses of situations.</p>

<p>BUT, that doesn't mean Levitt's studies are accurate and should be interpreted as fact. Consdering a good deal of the book's facts have already been shown to be on shakey ground, it is best to read the book as an interesting read, not a source of information.</p>

108

<p>do most Asian Americans honestly find it socially healthy for every top U.S. university to be 80% Asian in the student body? Is that what you want or are the 5-7% African Americans of every 1000 people in the undergrad schools too many?</p>

109

<p>Just_Browsing,</p>

<p>
[quote]

Do you honestly think there is no value in being exposed to other cultures?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's slightly a straw man. Please allow me to elaborate.</p>

<p>I put quotation marks around diversity because I am against the way it is defined in U.S. academia today.</p>

<p>I took a look at my school's "diversity" month calendar last Friday. A glance revealed that most of the events were dedicated to Black American culture. I don't recall anything about Hispanic culture, Asian culture, or Native American culture. There might have been one event about African culture.</p>

<p>When I checked out UGA's multicultural course requirement page list, I found that most of the classes are about Black American culture.</p>

<p>So, is "diversity" really an appreciation of different cultures or just lip service to Black Americans?</p>

<p>Diversity? That's different. Each individual is by definition unique. Diversity should automatically happen, in my opinion.</p>

<p>Now, to answer your question. There is definite value in being exposed to other cultures. I would very much like to know what the son of a Texan rancher experienced in his lifetime. I'm curious to know how the granddaughter of a Blackfoot feels about her identity. And so forth.</p>

<p>Diversity as defined by exposure and appreciation of other cultures is great. So long as other cultures is plural and not just a subset of Black American culture.</p>

110

<p>No - I responded to your comment - the answer is NOT that it's just easier to blame black people. Again, you give those annoyed with AA too little credit - AGAIN. There are three answers:</p>

<p>1) It is near IMPOSSIBLE to quantify the contribution a racial minority makes on campus, which makes it hard for anyone to propone AA to increase diversity.</p>

<p>2) Legacies have benefits that are VERY quantifiable: Legacies likely bring money to the school ==> money improves infrastructure, curriculum, whatever ==> school is better for kids to come. You see - EASY. </p>

<p>3) AA doesn't work when it works on the level of only skin color - why should 'Lafonda,' who has come from an advantaged background, get more of an advantage than 'Jenny,' a girl that came from a near identical background?</p>

<p>If you're a cynical person and saying 'blaming black people' is your way of saying what I said in the above - then I guess we agree. If you really believe that people just like blaming black people, then I hope you fall off your liberal horse named Flame-y and get a grip of the real world. Certainly there are those who are racist, but where I'm from, the vast majority are not.</p>

111

<p>I'm not asking you to justify legacies. I know why they are benificial.</p>

<p>That still doesn't explain why people blame minorities for not getting into school when they could just as easily blame the legacies. There is something very specific about the fact that people blame minorities AND ONLY minorities. I've never heard anyone every say "He only got in cause he was a legacy." It is definitely a racist thing.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I took a look at my school's "diversity" month calendar last Friday. A glance revealed that most of the events were dedicated to Black American culture. I don't recall anything about Hispanic culture, Asian culture, or Native American culture. There might have been one event about African culture.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's really quite unfortunate. That's not diversity either. At my school we celebrate diversity of all types. That's not what affirmative action is trying to do.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So, is "diversity" really an appreciation of different cultures or just lip service to Black Americans?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, its for all cultures... that's why Black Americans aren't the only ones who are benificiaries of affirmative action.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Now, to answer your question. There is definite value in being exposed to other cultures. I would very much like to know what the son of a Texan rancher experienced in his lifetime. I'm curious to know how the granddaughter of a Blackfoot feels about her identity. And so forth.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Both Native Americans and people from generally underrepresented regions are offered affirmative-action benifits as well. Do you have a problem with that?</p>

112

<p>I don't know if most people necessarily blame it. They just view it as unfair.</p>

<p>I view both AA and legacies admissions as unfair. However, this is a debate about AA, not legacies. We can debate about legacies later if you want.</p>

<p>How is the existence of lower standards for legacies justification for AA?</p>

113

<p>It is "justification" for it in the sense that it shows that college admissions isn't all about the narrow-minded deffinition of merit that opponents of affirmative-action usually put foward.</p>

114

<p>Just-Browsing has a point fhimas. You don't seem to have a problem with Amerind descendants. You'd like to meet one (or maybe as Albert Brooks would say, "I wanna touch Indians!")</p>

<p>Why the animus towards African-Americans and not Amerinds?</p>

115

<p>^^ Well that's the thing - can you actually provide a clean and succinct definition of merit in the context of diversity? My guess is you can't without a lot of thought and further, your definition is likely to differ from Tarhunt's definition or my definition for that matter. </p>

<p>And yes, I do say, "oh he was just a legacy." Especially, since where I come from, there are a lot of kids with some major legacy action.</p>

<p>I have a problem with AA when it is undeserved - I just used blacks as a quick and dirty example. If you've grown up with the same advantages I have, then why should your skin color merit you an advantage in admissions? If you've grown up disadvantaged - then by all means, you deserve the advantage.</p>

116

<p>Well, there is a whole other issue at hand if you do say the "he was just a legacy" or "he is just a minority." Because that just means you are an *******. </p>

<p>What I think you fail to grasp fhimas, is that the experiences of people, black and white are different and therefore no black person has had all the same advantages as you. They may have had some similar advantages (in some ways) to you in some places, but they were still different because of their race (as in how people are treated and judged at first glance).</p>

<p>It is because of these differences that it is important to have a diversity of experiences and "advantages" in an academic environment. Problems begin to arise when people of certain races aren't getting in sufficient numbers to achieve that goal. That's where affirmative action comes into play.</p>

117

<p>Just_Browsing,</p>

<p>This is a good question.</p>

<p>I don't believe that a Native American applicant should be admitted because "OMG! This guy comes from an ultra-rare background! He's got to automatically bring a different perspective on life!"</p>

<p>If he's admitted, it should be because he's qualified and sticks out. For example, let's say that he volunteers to help some of his family members who are stuck on a reservation. Maybe he tries to cut down alcohol use. Maybe he gives speeches. Maybe he is fluent in a tribal language. Maybe he organizes meetings and dances. Stuff like that.</p>

<p>It is not his skin color that gives him a different perspective on life. It is how he chose to identify with his background in the context of being an American that gives him his unique outlook on life.</p>

<p>If you ask me, geographic residence is a great way to achieve diversity without resorting to race.</p>

118

<p>fhimas:</p>

<p>Well, as the father of an African-American child, perhaps I can give you a few insights.</p>

<p>First off, he was very privileged. We're not rich, but we're comfortable and we live in a wealthy and education-conscious community. He was raised in a community of scholars, as well, so intellectual life was as natural as breathing to him. Our home uses a rich vocabulary, is absolutely brimming over with books of all kinds, and my wife and I made sure that he had the best instruction from us or others when he needed it.</p>

<p>But his life was still different from those of my other children in very significant ways. For one thing, people would just come right out and ask, right in front of him, if the "child" was ours. And that wasn't all. In a myriad of subtle ways, he was made to understand and never forget that he was different from everyone else. When he began to do well in swimming, the local press made a big deal out of the fact that he's black. And then, there were the whispers, some of them audible, when we were standing in line or otherwise in a crowd.</p>

<p>When he was 13, he was stopped by the police while walking from school to a friend's house. He was just walking, but he didn't "fit in." So, they questioned him and then called me out of a class to check his story. When he learned to drive, his driving instructor told him he would be pulled over a lot and, in fact, he was. He just didn't fit the profile of an upstanding citizen, so we always made sure he had all the appropriate paperwork whenever he drove anywhere.</p>

<p>When prom time came, a parent asked him if it was hard finding a black girl to date in this community. He told her he was taking a white girl. She looked like she'd just eaten a lemon. The woman at the tux shop recommended a white tuxedo because it was "flashier" and would "show off his skin." He played YMCA basketball for a while, but quit when he kept getting told by his coach that he should show the other (white) boys how to jump.</p>

<p>Those are just a few instances among thousands that made his experience very different from that of white kids growing up in white cultures among white people. Affirmative action actually was not a good thing for him. He absolutely had the credentials to attend pretty much any school he wanted to. He decided on a middle-of-the-road school after being told more than once that, with his "background," he would be a shoo-in for Harvard. </p>

<p>He's currently working on a Ph.D. in archeology and, not surprisingly, everyone is surprised to find a black archeologist. They want to know if he will specialize in sub-Saharan Africa. He intends to specialize in underwater archeology, probably in the Med. He's a swimmer, after all.</p>

<p>Would he have added much to classes at his school in sociology, anthropology, cultural anthropology, semantics, communications, and many others? I have no doubt. And he could have done that even had he been a bit less than the top student he was.</p>

119

<p>Tarhunt,</p>

<p>I have nothing but respect for your son. Based on what you wrote, it looks like he maintained immense poise amidst a somewhat unaccommodating environment (the community, not your family). It appears that he consistently beat the stereotype threat, given that he is pursuing a Ph.D.</p>

<p>Indeed, I often cite hypothetical examples of high-achieving Black students whose efforts are undermined by preferential treatment. Now, I know that your son is living proof of that.</p>

120

<p>Wow, Tarhunt, I'm impressed. If he looked at TAMU or URI for underwater archaeology, I'd LOVE to hear his views on their graduate programs (or any others he considered). That's one of the archaeology sub-fields I'm considering but not sure about.</p>