<p>Posting for a friend who isn't on CC who lives in suburban Philadelphia. </p>
<p>Her DS is a great kid, has a good GPA (3.8 unweighted), but has some processing issues and really had to prep to improve his SAT scores to ~1800 combined. He has his heart set on majoring in biology and going to medical school and has now decided he may not want to go to school far from home. He also refuses to attend a "small school" so didn't even apply to any LACs (even though he loved F&M), where he might fare better academically with the smaller classes, etc. He's now left to choose between Penn State UP, James Madison, Temple, and Drexel. (I think he's waiting for responses still from UVA and Syracuse.)</p>
<p>Any thoughts for how to help him make the best choice? If he ends up not being medical school material (a real possibility given his standardized testing issues), where is he likely to feel like it's not the end of the world and that he has some good options to fall back on? Money isn't really an issue. Temple actually gave him some merit money (not sure if he got into their honors college), but he has a lot of high school friends there already, and there's some concern that he'll come home on weekends (in which case why not commute fulltime and save the $$?). </p>
<p>While her DS is trying to assert his independence (which is great), my friend is worried that he was being stubborn about refusing to apply to any LACs. Personally, I would have told him if he wanted me to pay for his college app fees, he had to apply to at least one LAC, even if he decided not to go there. I think F&M's deadline for admission is tonight (!), so it's probably too late for that, but there may be some other LAC options, even a school like University of the Sciences, where he can major in biology and be pre-med but would have other health-related options if medical school turns out not to be realistic.</p>
<p>I'm sure any of these schools will be fine, and part of growing up is making decisions for yourself and then living with them, but most parents want to try to at least steer the ship onto the right course. Thanks for any pearls of wisdom!</p>
<p>“He’s now left to choose between Penn State UP, James Madison, Temple, and Drexel. (I think he’s waiting for responses still from UVA and Syracuse.)”</p>
<p>Are you saying he has already been accepted to those four colleges? If so, I don’t understand what the problem is. Colleges certainly don’t accept students purely on SAT scores. These colleges are pretty good at determining which kids will do well at their schools</p>
<p>If the concern is that he may not do well academically, I think he has the right to be given the opportunity to try. It’s not the end of the world if it turns out not to work for him. He can always transfer and be happy that he made the attempt.</p>
<p>I don’t understand the rationale for criticizing this student for not applying to liberal arts colleges. If he doesn’t like them, what’s the problem?</p>
<p>Sorry for the confusion, yes, he was already accepted at those schools BECAUSE of his excellent grades (and his SATs were fine for them too). However, my understanding is that to get into medical school, one has to have a high GPA <em>and</em> excellent MCAT scores. </p>
<p>I guess she’s concerned that a) his GPA might not be as good in a setting where he’s taking a lot of large, anonymous lecture courses (for all those premed requirements) and b) the higher his GPA, the more it might mitigate borderline MCAT scores. Again, he has a processing disorder and has fared well in a private school with smaller classes, etc. He’s never been in large classes and she’s worried he might not realize what he’s getting into.</p>
<p>Does he have any other majors of interest besides biology? No specific major is required to do the pre-med courses, and biology has poor major-specific job prospects at the bachelor’s degree level.</p>
<p>It’s not about criticizing him (who criticized him?). It’s about exploring the various options so that you have choices about where you might fare best academically. A lot of kids just pick the schools their friends are attending or have a fantasy about what college is like on a large campus. They aren’t really thinking about how things like class size can affect their experience. Some kids can do well ANYWHERE. Given his past issues, she’s worried he’s in denial about what he’s going to need to be successful. Again, this is a kid with his heart set on medical school. It’s probably a long-shot, so she’d like him to explore his options fully. Not sure if any of these universities have support for kids with LDs but that would be good to know too.</p>
<p>It sounds like the decisions are pretty much made on his school list… he may or may not succeed at the larger schools, but that sounds like it is his preference.</p>
<p>I’d say the bigger issue is the huge number of biology majors who don’t get into med school, and are all scrambling for the same small pool of low paying jobs available to someone with just an undergrad degree in biology. Unfortunately, my guess from your posting is that his mom is not going to have much credibility with him on this issue.</p>
<p>Maybe he will have the anticipated problems with grades at the schools with large class sizes. His mom should at least find out if there is a “pre-med” advisor of some kind he can be assigned to. If his grades aren’t so good, presumably this advisor will give him the news that he is not getting into med school so he can formulate an alternate plan.</p>
<p>Bottom line: When your child “won’t take your advice”, you really have to let them learn the hard way. Preferably protecting your own finances in the process… so maybe this kid has to be told he is getting 8 semesters of undergrad financial support, and that is it, for example. Or else he could dawdle through multiple majors and additional semesters…</p>
<p>That’s another area he’s being stubborn about, ucbalumnus. He’s determined to major in biology. I think he really loves the biological sciences, so there’s always graduate school after college if he doesn’t get into med school, but I’m not sure he’s even considering that at this point. Personally, I think he should pursue his passions, but again, in an environment where he can thrive.</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification, Lucie. I agree with intparent, your friend should let her son learn the hard way otherwise he will always wonder about the “road not taken” and will blame her for it. I think he will be able to find other options to Med School at any of those fine colleges.</p>
<p>Well… “laying down the law” and “having credibility” are two different things. Having credibility means that they have some respect for your opinions, and will at least consider advice that you offer. It sounds like that isn’t the case with this young man for whatever reason… so finding an outside party to help, like a pre-med advisor, might be a good idea.</p>
<p>I do think that kids need some boundaries, which vary from family to family. In our family, my kids know that they MUST graduate in 8 semesters, there is no extra money for more. (Just between us, I understand that an unexpected illness might derail this plan, and I would figure it out… but my kids know they have to pick a major and stick to it). They know they have to be self-supporting when they graduate – but this is up to them to figure out what that means. But it is up to this young man’s family to figure out what, if any, boundaries they want to set.</p>
<p>Great points, Aloha and intparent. Thank you.</p>
<p>Re boundaries, when I was young I actually felt sorry for some of my friends whose parents were footing the bills for their educations. When I was in college I was receiving Social Security Death Benefits and they ran out when I turned 21, regardless of whether or not I graduated on time. Knowing I had 8 semesters, and 8 semesters ONLY, to get my degree gave me no outs. I had friends who took many many years to get their bachelor degrees because they kept switching majors and mom and dad could afford to just keep footing the bill. </p>
<p>It has to be hard when you DO have the funds to say NO to your kid, even if it’s in his or her best interests in the long run. Tough love is tough on the parents too!</p>
<p>The issue with med school- even if he were not a bio major, he’d still need to take the pre-med path of couses. Many schools brutally weed out, based on these (esp starting with intro bio, chem and math, then organic.) More than class size, he needs to see if one of these schools has a more cooperative approach. (Not uncommon for tests, eg, to cover more than class or reading materials.) You want to pop over to the pre-med forum(s) and see what you can learn about weeding at those schools. In general, the number of freshman kids with pre-med aspirations is whittled down significantly, to only those with the best prospects. Those the recommending committees are comfortable with and kids who stand a chance of an acceptance “at one of their top three choices.” It’s not pretty, in the wrong environment. And, LACs can be just as guilty of this.</p>
<p>As for not taking parental advice, we usually shift to gentle reverse psychology or something lateral. Not all kids can respond well to head to head conflict.</p>
<p>The LAC ship has sailed. I don’t really understand the point of the OP supporting the mother in her delusion that she can somehow make the kid go to a LAC now or that it’s somehow productive to beat this dead horse. A major part of growing is learning to accept reality, including one’s limitations. It is to be hoped that the kid will learn. Whether the mother will remains in doubt.</p>
<p>It seems really premature to worry about this student who’s gotten so many excellent options, is a great kid and did well in high school. My H intended to go to med school, majored in biology at an excellent LAC, got rejected by med schools 2 years running and eventually started a successful business having nothing to do with medicine or biology. Life has a way of directing us.</p>
<p>I would visit all of these schools and find out - </p>
<p>How are the classes that would likely be on this student’s freshman schedule taught and managed? Is there a curve? What are attrition rates like for these classes? Does a pre-health advisor help students strategize by spreading difficult classes out over several semesters, withdrawing from a class that isn’t going well to re-take at a better time or with a professor who is a better fit, and perhaps taking a summer class or two?</p>
<p>Do quizzes and homework form part of the grade, and are these multiple choice or graded by hand? Are midterms and finals strictly scantron/multiple choice, with solutions posted after the exam, or do they contain multi-step problems that can earn partial credit? (A student who is not easily able to show what they can do via standardized testing might be shortchanged at a school where much evaluation, especially in intro classes, is done via multipe choice exams.) </p>
<p>What types of help are available, and who is giving the help? (Big difference between a peer who got an A or B when they took the class the previous year, and a full-time employee with a BS or MS in the subject.) Are notetakers available for these classes? </p>
<p>Sometimes students who do not do well in the intro classes (and will not qualify for medical school) will nonetheless do well enough to proceed to upper-level classes and excel in these classes, but will probably need some type of research experience in order to be competitive for an entry-level job or for graduate school. Other students will show more talent in a lab than in a classroom. Can a student with an average GPA nonetheless participate in undergrad research? (I believe this can become an issue at Temple; not sure about Penn State.)</p>
<p>I agree with looking forward that an LAC can be as ruthless as any school in weeding out pre-meds, even with small classes. And a large university might provide more options wrt choice of professor or level of instruction. A student can choose to take a less rigorous version of physics, for example, if they are not going beyond a semester or two of calculus, apart from students who intend to major in a physical science.</p>
<p>Really appreciate all the excellent suggestions from everyone, especially with regard to how the intro premed courses are taught and the reality check about LACs potentially being as ruthless as a larger university. </p>
<p>And just to clarify, his mom isn’t trying to strong-arm him into a LAC; she just wants him to seriously explore the different types of schools and choose what’s best for him based on sound reasoning, not what’s popular with his classmates, etc. This is the parents forum after all, so I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having some anxiety about our kids’ decisions.</p>
<p>Ask them if they need more info to make a choice & stand back!</p>
<p>By the time they were ready to look at colleges, my kids had been making progressively more important decisions since they were old enough to decide what to wear.</p>
<p>For example, one daughter decided she wanted to attend a comprehensive high school in the inner city instead of the much smaller K-12 school she had been attending since 3rd grade.
I was not for it, but she was the one who was going to go there.
It was bumpy at times, but she grew a lot.</p>
<p>I think it’s time to help this student get ready for one of the colleges he has been accepted to. Nothing else really matters…these were his choices. And he is the one going to college.</p>
<p>I assumed when OP said he has “processing issues,” it meant an extra concern about his decision making. Doesn’t that make it harder to just say he can learn from his mistakes? At this point, he’s still in hs, maybe only 17. Or?</p>