Who Supports Low/Middle Income Kids During App Process?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Several recent threads have been dealing with colleges identifying their institutional responsibility to encourage more presence of middle income students. One thread is called "Class Divide." Another references a 6-page article by US News and World Reports, containing a description a quiet New York City meeting called by the Presidents of Amherst College and Harvard University, attended by Presidents from other elite schools. There, data demonstrated the problem exists, and convinced the others to consider the issue. Another thread initiated by 2 schoolteacher parents asks for feedback on whether their daughter will fit in if she's accepted to 3 elite east-coast schools.</p>

<p>All fascinating reading.</p>

<p>So I wonder: does anyone feel that the admissions process itself defies the capabilities and resources of a low- or mid-income family? </p>

<p>Personally, I think it's a pretty amazing, rare l7 year old who can juggle (and track when lost by adults) the many required items, communicate diplomatically and appreciatively with overworked GC's, understand how to remind teachers to write Rec letters, kick-start essays, ride the emotional roller-coaster of disappointments, make key decisions (RD or ED? finaid: need based or merit...?) Without educated parents, school-based advisors, or older sibs, I wondered often this year how any child keeps from giving up mid-process, or perhaps just applying to 1 or 2 schools only, due to the complexity and expense of the task as it has become. </p>

<p>Perhaps the actual application process itself has become unfriendly to the concerns and needs of low/mid-income families. </p>

<p>For example, how to plan a "round of college exploratory visits" with limited budget for motels or days-off work from the employer, for example...not to mention guiding kids on how to approach diplomatically a GC who is overworked or phone the college when sent items have been misplaced. Those are all parent-guided activities, and I just feel as though an unsupported but sincere teen might give up under the weight of it, assuming that wealthier kids have all the competitive advantage even before the apps are filed.</p>

<p>What do you think? And if it's a real problem, should the colleges themselves reframe the process or support kids (as there are minority admissions advisors) better, giving them pointers and adult guidance starting in jr. year?</p>

2

<p>I think that most low income people and many middle income students end up either going to college in their hometowns or within an hour or 2 drive. In fact, I think that a couple of months ago, I found research supporting this.</p>

<p>For most people in this country, there's a community college or relatively low cost public university that's reasonably close to where they live. </p>

<p>Don't assume that most people act like folks on CC who fly kids all over the country to check out colleges and also apply to zillions of colleges.</p>

<p>Most students are accepted to their first choice college and probably have a good idea that they'll be accepted when they apply.</p>

<p>Most of S's friends are middle class, and most are going to college within a 2.5 hour drive of where we live. Probably the majority applied to only one or two colleges. Why apply to more? They were perfectly happy to stay in state and nearby. Many, including some extremely bright kids with high scores, grades, are staying in town and commuting to the second tier public in town.</p>

<p>It's really not that hard to apply to most local public colleges. There's also tons of guide books and free Internet info about how to best apply for colleges. It was a lot harder in the old days when many of us were young.</p>

3

<p>
[quote]
For example, how to plan a "round of college exploratory visits" with limited budget for motels or days-off work from the employer, for example

[/quote]
Actually, in my opinion, that's a totally unnecessary step. Something that families with money do. My son didn't visit colleges before spring of his senior year, and it worked out fine for him - he only visited 3 colleges in any case (his first & second choice, and one other campus that was in the same city with his top choice). </p>

<p>My daughter did visit colleges, but she made most of the arrangements on her own, traveled on her own, and actually financed one of two trips on her own. (She won a round trip air ticket in a promotional contest, obviously something of a stroke of luck on her part.... but the point is it doesn't all have to come out of the parents' pockets).</p>

<p>I agree with you that kids with more parental support are at a huge advantage.... but many lower and middle class students are used to handling a lot on their own. My kids both handled all contacts with their respective GC's and teachers over college recs and forms without my help or intervention.</p>

4

<p>There are numerous pre-college programs specifically for low to middle- class students which aid in the college process. Two programs that come to mind are AVID and TRIO programs. These programs help direct the students to ensure they are taking the required classes, test prep and college visits. There are also local pre-college programs as well. My daughter has been a part of one since sixth grade. Although she is a member, I still take her on college visits and give her opportunities to expand her horizons. She travels constantly. The joint venture has been a great benefit. She's a high school junior and doing very well. There is help out there and most guidance counselors try to target programs to those students who need it. These students go on to schools close to home and then some go far away. My daughter is one who prefers to go somewhat far away.</p>

5

<p>northstarmom is exactly right. The college admission process is quite simple for the vast majority of students. It becomes stressfully cumbersome only for those students and families deciding to play the highly selective admissions game. </p>

<p>And when we realize that for most,this "game" must begin when the student is a 13 yr old hs freshman who has typically has little appreciation for the fact that a quality education can be had at scores of colleges not named HYP, the issue of unintended consequences should be considered. And I suspect that the admissions nuclear arms race is often initiated by the parents and not the 13 yr old child.</p>

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<p>I think there are valid points both in Posts #2 and #4.</p>

<p>Most middle (or lower) income students will in most cases not be aspiring to a wealthy "elite," let alone have the qualifications for that. Especially rare (still) is the impoverished student who has excelled beyond circumstances, is competitive for an Elite, & belongs there intellectually. (That's why such a student is often given multiple offers at Elites.)</p>

<p>OTOH, someone mentioned the pre-college programs like AVID. However, to my knowledge those aren't necessarily oriented toward those who would be seeking the Upper Tier. There are also the pre-college summer programs. Those are good for getting a student familiar with a campus, a surround, expanding course opportunities, etc. In most cases it will not be an admissions boost at that particular U (separate topic -- & one addressed recently on the Admissions Forum). However, it is great for enrichment & certainly adds overall to the admissions profile of a student, depending on the student's success & the uniqueness of the course or program. There are scholarships for such programs. Again, though, most in the above income category will for various reasons not usually be seeking those opportunities -- including often because of the need to work during summer and/or add'l funds for travel, which is typically not provided in a financial aid package, with some exceptions.</p>

<p>To me, because I'm in the classroom so much, my biggest concern is the vast majority I see who are ill-prepared for the lowest-level 4-yr. State U. This is what comprises the middle & lower income students I see. They are mostly on a remedial level in English skills & math skills. In a community college, some of them will thrive, others will need tutoring there in order not to get "D's."</p>

<p>I see a widening educational class divide. Hopefully that's not true where everybody else lives.</p>

<p>The mid-level student is often opting out of the public system for charter homeschooling, where there is minimal college counseling but actively involved parents who will help out, or for parochial schooling which has basic counseling such as what large public schools have. In my area there are still some low-to-mid level suburban public schools which are in "affordable" neighborhoods, but the quality of schools there is much closer to low than middle, with the college counseling there, & (importantly) the college expectations there, more low than middle. And of course there are the magnet publics in urban districts which can be a good value for the middle income family where the parents are quite educated & involved & are advocates in the college process -- or simply providing an educated home environment. In the smaller magnet schools there can be more support sometimes even if the counseling dept. is weak, because the teachers know the students well & can get involved.</p>

<p>In the very poor public site schools, esp the charter site schools, what happens is that the Jr. & Sr. class teachers get involved in the process, esp. the Engl. teachers. When I'm in the classroom I help them with their scholarship essays & such; the writing is atrocious: mostly between a 3rd grade & 5th grade level; the occasional student will write on the 8th grade level. High school teachers at these schools also take selected students out on college visits on school days -- such as to U.C. -- any U.C. being a major stretch for most of them, actually.</p>

<p>There is also Questbridge. That does target low-income, and their College Prep program provides them with free counseling, among other kinds of prep. Princeton, Columbia, some LAC's are linked with this. A small percentage of applicants will be Questbridge scholars, but that is logical, because a small percentage is the material for the likes of such colleges.</p>

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<p>Since I have spent the past year helping a low income student with college applications I feel qualified to weigh in here. </p>

<p>I think that all the intellectualizing is great but it doesn't address the practical. </p>

<p>For instance, my Mom grew up in West Virginia in a very poor area. When people say why don't those miners just leave and go do something else they DO NOT understand the mindset. Many of the people there have never considered anything else. </p>

<p>Now back to the student I have been helping. Because I do not like the idea of major debt she has been applying to the Calstates. She was accepted at all of them (no surprise). She has it narrowed down to two of them. There are EOP programs but those programs require a separate acceptance. We are waiting for those. Those programs do not help with the application process, only help when you are admitted to those programs and attend the school. </p>

<p>Last week, her Aunt brought me a Cal grant GPA verification form. She told me "I don't know what to do with this". The form was VERY simple. You put in your basic information and the High School verifies your GPA and sends off. The Aunt and the student were stumped by it. </p>

<p>It's like the minute they see another form they go glazed over on me. The mindset for dealing with all this stuff just isn't there. The high school guidance counselors are not set up to hand hold students through the process. </p>

<p>We filled out the FAFSA together. Now we have to get the Mom, who is in and out of her life, to give us a copy of her tax return because it was selected for verification. Her communication with the Mom is spotty and the Aunt and her family who the kid lives with are not on good terms with Mom.<br>
Dad is out of the picture but comes by once in a while, just long enough to say "I don't want my kid in Long Beach...Long Beach is a pit."<br>
So..I agree with OP. There is no system for getting these kids through the process and intellectualizing about it won't change it. Some AVID programs do help. Questbridge addresses a small minority.<br>
Some High School teachers may fill in the gap, I'm not sure. At our HS they do not.<br>
I completely disagree with the above post regarding impoverished students and qualifying for the elites and I would assume my Mother who has a Masters degree and my PHD Father would too but that is another post.</p>

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<p>"I completely disagree with the above post regarding impoverished students and qualifying for the elites and I would assume my Mother who has a Masters degree and my PHD Father would too but that is another post."</p>

<p>Perhaps I miscommunicated? I certainly did not mean to imply that impoverished students with highly educated parents are not Elite material. I know some.;) But most impoverished students do not have highly educated parents; that is the entire point. They are indeed rare birds, if you look at the statistics from any angle. There are middle-income students with highly educated parents, & who do well in K-12 education & qualify for Elites. There are low-income students with the same circumstances & outcomes as the latter sentence. </p>

<p>The best college outcomes occur for those with excellent preparation. That preparation is connected most often with income and/or parental education.</p>

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<p>epiphany
What I meant was that they were impoverished and still managed to get advanced degrees. There is a small percentage of low income students who are able to "make it out." It is a small percentage, I will grant you that.<br>
I guess I saw your earlier statement as a sweeping generalization and wanted to point out that there are exceptions.</p>

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<p>ebeeee, my post specifically addressed the fact that BECAUSE the number of such students is so few, they are considered prime catches for Elites, and get "multiple offers." Did you see that part of my post, or did you overreact? (I think the latter.)</p>

<p>I repeat: they are rare. Not non-existent. Rare. That is WHY they get multiple offers.</p>

<p>Rarer still is the "bird" that has NEITHER an income advantage nor a parental education advantage. (The latter is an advantage, no matter how you cut it.) Such a student often sweeps acceptances across every Elite applied to, particularly if that student is a URM. Two examples just from CC are from the last 3 admissions rounds: one an African American student from CA now at Stanford (but with acceptances to H, Y, and P, & I think a couple of other Ivies), and a Vietnamese student with similar results, who I believe chose Harvard.</p>

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<p>I can tell you how it's worked in my little circle - parents help other parents. It's true that most kids find their own choices and are completely happy with them, but there are occasional kids whose abilities and aspirations are beyond what the family has experienced and can tackle on their own. Our guidance department is used to dealing with, and seemingly set up for, what fits for MOST kids. They aren't a great deal of help for the student looking for a summer program to 'feed' an academic interest and if they know much about colleges beyond the state and local schools, it's because "two years ago the valedictorian went there" or something.</p>

<p>What I've observed is that children get to a place because the parents are savvy - either already know because it was their own path, or are astute enough to learn it on the fly. </p>

<p>I think those of us who post here are fairly passionate on the subject and are passing on information to other parents in our schools. I keep coming back to this because I might learn something that not only benefits my own kids, but their friends and classmates. I do know that none of the programs mentioned by other posters exist in our school. We're in the northeast; most might assume we don't need help in getting information to our students but it's not the case. One parent at a PTA meeting gushed about paying a scholarship search firm and that her child qualified for aid. I tried to make the point that there are other ways to find the information, that other parents can be free resources. </p>

<p>I'm especially saddened when families that are strapped for money pay for information/help that they could or should be receiving from their schools and fellow parents. It does indicate, though, how desperately people want their children to succeed.</p>

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<p>I know in NYS generally and NYC specifically there are a number of programs available to help low income students through the college process and with academics. </p>

<p>One such Program is the STEP (Science and Technology Entry Program)</p>

<p><a href="http://www.highered.nysed.gov/kiap/step/step.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.highered.nysed.gov/kiap/step/step.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The STEP program that I am most familiar with (because I have been a volunteering for them for over 10 years) meets on saturday during the school year where they work with the students in science, writing and math (students are placed in sections that correlate to the math/science course they are taking at their local high school). The teacher will first ask the students if there is any thing in the class that needs reviewing and they will review that. In addition in the classes, regents prep is also done. </p>

<p>On friday afternoons the program has a free SAT prep program. </p>

<p>During spring break, the program holds a college tour (about 3 days where they visit from 6 to 7 colleges year year they visit a different region. This year they are doing the upstate swing, but last year they visited schools from virginia to georgia) where all memebers of the program are invited to attend. The cost per participant is about $150 (because a corporate contribution that helps to underwrite part of the cost). However, no student is turned away because of an inability to pay. Because the program encourages parent participation, if the parent wants to accompany the student on the trip, they pay $25 to go.</p>

<p>During the school year workshops are held and the program does work with students on the application process and the FA process. They make computers and guides available so that students can do research and will write recommendation letters.</p>

<p>In addition, a number of colleges have free fly-in programs for minority and low/mid income students (sometimes the family is asked to pay a nominal fee, around $50 if a plane ticket needs to be booked). </p>

<p>If a student is admitted and would like to vist, they can contact the admissions office because there are sometimes funds available to defray the cost of the visit.</p>

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<p>sybbie, that's great. </p>

<p>Also, in my area there are free SAT prep classes in public libraries that even we did not find out about until my D was entering her senior yr. in h.school, & I certainly consider myself more informed than many parents, only because I'm interested & make it my business to learn about such things. But this goes back to the post by lefhandofdog: There are actually free or low-cost ways to assist & advocate. They often do take effort, but that's because the information is not centralized. We found out about a local Brown information session that was never announced at my D's elite private h.s. only because we attended a diff. info session presented by a NE LAC at a private school not my D's. There was a flyer there about Brown coming. Most often the efforts to find links & pamphlets & annoucements are time consuming & not universally accessible. I agree with lefthandofdog that passionate parents will find the answers, whether they're rich or poor. </p>

<p>This is one of the most basic ways that every high school can do. The college counseling page should at the least have a comprehensive set of info posted, with hyperlinks. Most h.s. cc pages are not password protected (except for sometimes the Naviance link). The GC can get the info about local receptions by private colleges & post those; when these sessions are not on h.s. campuses during the school day, these are open to the general public, & there is no reason to hide that information.</p>

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<p>"I completely disagree with the above post regarding impoverished students and qualifying for the elites and I would assume my Mother who has a Masters degree and my PHD Father would too but that is another post"</p>

<p>No one has said that there are no impoverished students qualifying for the elites. Some -- including me-- have said that most students of any class do not qualify for the elites. </p>

<p>Regardless of class, most students are headed for something like a third tier or lower tier 4-year college or community college. Keep in mind that most state's flagship colleges are 2nd tier colleges. Those are where the very top students in the state tend to go. Most students (regardless of class) go to colleges that are ranked lower than the flagships, which means probably most students go to 3rd tier or lower ranked colleges and community colleges. Most such colleges accept the great majority of their applicants, and their applications are not difficult to do.</p>

<p>For the record, my husband was a first generation high school grad, and had the grades and scores to have gone to the elites, though he chose to go to a church-affiliated lower ranked LAC.</p>

<p>What is harder for students to do are the financial aid forms, as someone here already has described. However, students can get help on-line, from guidance counselors, etc. They have many more resources to help them with these things than existed back when most of us were young.</p>

<p>I know that in my area, the local community college offers sessions that help students and parents learn about how to get financial aid there and fill out the forms. Churches also offer help.</p>

<p>When my S was in an academic magnet program at a low performing school, I learned that although the magnet program parents and students got information from their GC about how to apply for scholarships and colleges, there were no such presentations for the rest of the school.</p>

<p>Consequently, even though it didn't directly help my kid, I got the overall school to hold an evening session offering parents and students that information. I also volunteered to present the info that I had on scholarships and free summer programs for minorities and first generation college students.</p>

<p>Even though the overall school had 2/3 of the students at the school, only about 5 parents showed up.</p>

<p>Yet, when similar sessions were held for the magnet program, the room was overflowing and even freshmen and their parents came. These included some who lived very far away and had to bring even babies along.</p>

<p>I have done a lot of volunteer work in low income schools, and typically have seen that parents do not get involved. This has been true even when schools put the info on marques and mail the info and call homes, plus provide free dinners before open houses, and allow parents to bring younger children. </p>

<p>Where I live, it has seemed remarkable to me that many such parents manage to participate regularly in Weds. night church activities, but won't do the same for school activities even when they live within walking distance of the school.</p>

<p>I also have noticed that it can be hard to get the low income students to take advantage of college prep activities even when they are free. At my suggestion, when S was in the magnet program, the school instituted a free SAT prep course after school. It was designed for students who wanted to go to college, but had relatively low scores, something that was true for the majority of college-bound kids in the regular school. Other kids would get in only on a space available basis.</p>

<p>Twice my S, whose PSAT scores were at the commended level, was able to take those review courses as were other high scoring students out of his magnet program. Why? The students for whom the class was designed did not sign up for it.</p>

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<p>I don't think it's a question of whether they are able to do the work or make the decisions to get into elite schools, because they don't even know what the required work is in the first place.</p>

<p>I went to a rather low-performing high school....I believe the year I graduated, 18% went to 4-year schools (and I'll bet at least half of those were split between two local state schools). My parents did not go to college and only really thought of the process of me applying and going in terms of two things: 1) you are absolutely going to college because we didn't and you're not ending up in a job like we have, and 2) wow look at those prices, this is going to be really expensive. I remember one of my friends explained to me that she was applying only to private colleges because even though they were more expensive, they would give you more aid than the state schools and end up being less expensive in the end...tried to explain this to my parents but it didn't sink in until they got to line up all the aid offers I got on the table and see for themselves. </p>

<p>Most of what I learned about the admissions process, I learned by either just reading instructions on applications, overheard comments from classmates, or stuff from the generic "so you're going to college" assembly my high school held in junior year. I didn't know there was really any more to know about it, until I stumbled across this site while trying to figure out if it would be feasible for me to ever go to grad school (haha). I'm sure there are some people around on this site that can get all self-righteous about how they were in my "exact situation" but they decided to actually be motivated and research the things they didn't know themselves, without someone telling them, but...how can you be expected to research something when you don't realize there's even something to research to begin with? I thought it was about how smart and "interesting" you were (i.e., large variety of after-school activities), not how well you'd been coached to play the game.</p>

<p>I didn't know what I was supposed to be looking for, either, during the whole college search process. Didn't know much about the whole "fit" idea, didn't know which colleges were supposed to be more prestigious than others (except for the very top colleges, obviously). Thought MIT was in the Ivy League until I made a comment reflecting that to one of my friends and she laughed at me. My parents chose to focus solely on cost and distance from home and I pretty much ended up focusing on my vague impressions of the atmosphere of a school, and what the city surrounding it was like. I ended up at a school that I've never really liked and that would probably have been considered a 'safety'. I guess I'm supposed to be happy that I got to go in the first place.</p>

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<p>We aren't impoverished- we own our house ( well we are the ones who pay the tax on it anyway)- but neither H or I have attended a 4 year school, and while I have taken CC courses & have a GED, I don't have a high school diploma.</p>

<p>There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle,however there still is much inequity.
While some high schools, have great resources & there is a lot of information online- you still have to know where to look and to keep at it.
Before that, you have to know that you want your child to have the opportunity to attend college & be persistent when trying to get them into classes that will help prepare them.</p>

<p>With my oldest we were very fortunate to have had generous scholarships available for her to attend private schools. The schools handled virtually all of the college preparation, and even took kids on college searches. Focus on vocab words for SAT were part of English classes and all of the kids had a plan after high school, even if all of them didn't step right onto a college campus.</p>

<p>This is pretty unusual for middle or especially low income background students to be attending private school. While schools like Lakeside, do have programs to reach out to students like [url=<a href="http://www.lakesideschool.org/leep/%5DLEEP-%5B/url"&gt;http://www.lakesideschool.org/leep/]LEEP-[/url&lt;/a&gt;] kids like my younger daughter, who have a wider focus as young teens than only getting into college, may not want to participate, because its hard for them to see beyond their summer.
( And while I say* schools* like Lakeside, in the Seattle area- Lakeside is the only school I know of that offers such a program- although other private schools may have summer classes for a large fee)</p>

<p>For students who don't have highly motivated and determined parents- or even if they do, I think it is still very difficult to prepare for colllege.
For example-my oldest attended private school, because she is very bright but has learning challenges- ADD and learning disabilties.( which I think is much more common than recognized- she had support primarily because she was in a special study from birth)</p>

<p>The school district does not really have a place to serve these kids, they don't qualify for gifted classes, and unless they are two grades below grade level, they don't qualify for special education. So unless the parents are willing and able to provide tutoring & enrichment, they are going to fall between the cracks.</p>

<p>Even if the student doesn't have LDs it is a challenge. Our district requires 20 credits for graduation-
only two credits( or years) are required to graduate in math and two of science
One year of arts and one & 1/5 years of occupational education.
One semester of health is required & one & 1/2 years of PE.
No foreign language is required by either the state or the district.
Three years of English and Social studies is required.
Besides the low requirements- note that a level is not required for math. ( considering State difficulties in math instruction- that is significant)</p>

<p>Colleges are interested in first gen students its true- but it isn't such a hook as you might think. ( especially if they don't visually- as in minority status make the campus more diverse)</p>

<p>They want to be sure that these students will succeed, and even if their district doesn't require 4 years of math/English/history/foreign language/science for graduation, the student from a challenged background will be much better prepared with them.</p>

<p>My younger daughter- again bright with learning challenges, is trying to take the college " recommended" requirements. </p>

<p>To free up room in her schedule, she has had PE waived, by participating on school sports teams, but some of her electives and summer time has been taken up with required math support classes to bring her to grade level and to help her pass the required state exam-this is necessary IMO,
because the combination of the gaps in district curriculum and teachers who didn't supplement those gaps along with her math disabilty,
( even though we had paid for Kumon). Even parents whose kids don't have disabilities, and have the background to do so, have been tutoring their kids in math, just to get them through. ( something that is getting very common across the country)</p>

<p>Her sister had 7 classes in her schedule. Senior year was typical. She had English-math-Science-Spanish-History & two arts courses- advanced art & vocal ensemble.
Occupational ed wasn't required for graduation & the size of the school and the classrooms, made it easy for everyone to get the classes they wanted ( although not a lot of room for electives-)</p>

<p>Some suburban districts also offer a longer school day, which also makes it easier for kids to take college prep course load.</p>

<p>Our urban district also used to allow some teachers to overenroll classes if they agreed ( and the school agreed to pay the union fine) this allowed more students to take higher level classes, that were popular, but only offered once. However the teacher union now is quite forceful about not allowing any overloaded classes- even if a class of Calc AP AB with 35 kids may be easier to manage than a class of freshman English non honors with 32. </p>

<p>So "class", matters a lot just to be ready to "look" for colleges.</p>

17

<p>wow... simply, none of this college stuff is even on the radar in rural, middle class america.</p>

<p>college counseling at my high school consisted of the senior college prep english classes spending a period in the computer lab. there we were guided to the applications for penn state and lock haven (the other local state school) and told to begin one. this was followed by a financial aid presentation in the evening. period.</p>

<p>my guidance counselor had never heard of amherst when one of my friends (daughtor of very highly educated parents) brought in her materials. a vast majority of my class had never heard of bucknell, where i ended up, despite it being about an hour from our school. four people (out of a class of 230) took the sat iis.</p>

<p>who is hurt most? the truly middle class kids who would qualify for large amounts of need-based aid at many privates yet end up paying full freight at penn state, especially those for whom penn states size is not a good fit.</p>

18

<p>Looking from the other side- with a college graduate now in the family.
I will also say that there is still a lot that I wish I had known/done differently.
Even though- her small private college, had a program to support first gen/minority/low income students, it is aimed at freshmen only. Students can participate as mentors, as upperclassmen, but I think that the program needs to continue through graduation.</p>

<p>Differences I see from students from different backgrounds.</p>

<p>Instead of knowing about internships and having them as a priority, my D had to work summers, to earn money to put toward tuition.
In order to save money, she didn't buy a critical ( & expensive) textbook, for a difficult class- possibly resulting in her failure to pass the class, necessitating taking a year off to retake it.
We didn't encourage her researching job leads in college, we knew that her school was very challenging, and I didn't want to put more pressure on her.</p>

<p>However, while she isn't yet working at Starbucks as a barista, I am a little concerned that she hasn't either taken the GRE/applied to grad school, and isn't working nine months after graduation.</p>

<p>Its a little scary, considering we can't help her financially, not after we have already taken money out of retirement accounts and taken out loans to help her attend college & her sister will be graduating high school in 2008 and will also need support.</p>

19

<p>"Instead of knowing about internships and having them as a priority, my D had to work summers, to earn money to put toward tuition."</p>

<p>One doesn't have to work an official internship to get the employment and graduate school benefits of that. Working a job, virtually any job, puts students far ahead of the students who spend their summers lolling on the beach.</p>

<p>One also can do unpaid internships while also working fulltime ordinary summer jobs. I have had many students who did that.</p>

<p>I know that you weren't aware of these things, so I am not putting you or your D down for not being aware of these things, which are a big change from how things used to be when we were young. Back in those days, having a college degree was the ticket to good permanent jobs and professional schools. Now, for many fields and graduate programs, work or internship experence also is required.</p>

<p>My comments on this are to inform those whose kids are still young enough to benefit from this info.</p>

<p>"We didn't encourage her researching job leads in college, we knew that her school was very challenging, and I didn't want to put more pressure on her."</p>

<p>I also don't think that you should blame yourself. Your D was in a school that probably had a lot of presentations and services by her career and placement center. She also knew that after college, she'd need to be doing something. She also was an adult. She could have done more to have obtained information about how best to be well situated after graduation.</p>

<p>If there is one thing that parents learn from your post, I think it should be to emphasize to their kids when they are young that just as they presumably planned ahead (including by researching) to have the best college options, they will need to do the same thing to have the best options after graduation. Just as they presumably used their GC in high school, they should use their career and placement office in college, starting at least at junior year to do this.</p>

<p>The more that a parent does when their kids are young to instill in their kids the skills to research school/career options and to take the steps to implement those options, the lower the chances are that the parent will end up supporting jobless (or semijobless) offspring after they graduate from college.</p>

<p>Parents who have raised kids in happy homes may have to go out of their way to make sure that their kids learn these skills because on the surface, it may not seem a bad thing to the parent or kid if the kid returns home after college. </p>

<p>I actually think it's easier for kids from dysfunctional families to learn the skills to guarantee jobs and grad school placement (and the money to pay for the placement). That's because such young people have no desire to return to the nest, and consequently are highly motivated to find a good place to land after college graduation. When it comes to this, I speak from my personal experience. Under no circumstances did I want to return home after college graduation, so I worked hard to make sure that I got into a graduate program that I could afford, and got a good job immediately afterward.</p>

20

<p>I'll tell you what happens a my kids' large public academic magnet. It has the relative advantage of vast income diversity -- kids from very affluent, sophisticated families to kids who sleep in homeless shelters, with the vast majority from true middle-income families where it is rare for both parents to have any college-level education, and about 1/3 immigrants or first-generation Americans. It's an academic magnet, but average SAT scores as of a couple years ago were 1100, so we're talking about a large average-student population. It's not TJ or Stuyvesant (although the top 60-70 kids or so in each class are on that level, and about a quarter of the kids have an MG tag).</p>

<ol>
<li><p>What Northstarmom said above absolutely applies there. 75% of the kids probably apply to 1-3 state schools, maybe 10% choose to go to the local community college. It is not hard for them to negotiate the process. It is relatively easy to visit, and even if they don't visit it is easy to get a lot of information about the schools because of the sheer numbers of kids who go there.</p></li>
<li><p>The #1 job of the GCs -- and probably their #2-5 job, too -- is to make certain that every kid applies to at least one college that will accept him or her, as well as applying for appropriate financial aid. Institutionally, they do a good job of this, albeit at the expense of other things GCs might do.</p></li>
<li><p>I don't see a whole lot of tragedies. Some kids may undershoot their potential, but on the whole kids are going to schools that are appropriate for them and where they will feel comfortable. We can debate the relative merits of Penn State's Schreyer Honors College vs. Brown on CC, but there's absolutely nothing awful about kids deciding to go to the former (or Temple, or Pitt, or any of the actually-pretty-good third-tier state colleges).</p></li>
<li><p>The kids help each other out a lot. There is a pervasive culture of going to college that the school works hard to forster, starting before kids enter in 9th grade. By the time they hit 12th grade, most of them are pretty familiar with the process, and when kids get lost and start to drift usually there are a few friends who step in, or at least clue some teacher in about the problem. Peer pressure is very effective.</p></li>
<li><p>One way or another, most of the kids have an informal mentor among the teachers, coaches, or administrators -- the school functions something like a collection of small cults. These cult leaders take it upon themselves to make certain their followers are doing what they need to do.</p></li>
<li><p>The military is an important option, too.</p></li>
<li><p>Kids who (a) have academic talent, and (b) are really lost in the process get a tremendous amount of attention from other students and from faculty and administrators. This year that includes the kid who will be valedictorian of my son's class, who was very unsophisticated, and had no real parental support. He has gotten a lot more sophisticated in the last 12 months. If you are smart enough to get high As in Physics C AP, you can probably figure out how to apply to college with appropriate coaching.</p></li>
<li><p>All of this is not to say some kids don't fall through the cracks. They do. But it is a handful out of 550 or so -- probably fewer than a dozen in any year. The system works pretty well.</p></li>
</ol>