Who Supports Low/Middle Income Kids During App Process?

Parent Cafe
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<p>*One doesn't have to work an official internship to get the employment and graduate school benefits of that. Working a job, virtually any job, puts students far ahead of the students who spend their summers lolling on the beach.</p>

<p>One also can do unpaid internships while also working fulltime ordinary summer jobs. I have had many students who did that.*</p>

<p>Thats a good point NSM- & that was my point that if the parents don't have a college background or even if they do, but aren't really in the thick of how hiring is more competitive now, they may not even know the things that will help their kids be more prepared.</p>

<p>Things have changed so much from when we were in high school & from many were in college.
For example, there is a push within our district to offer and require more vocational classes- its a very urban district ( well for Washington ) and we have a large minority population ( in the district).</p>

<p>However- there is a conflict between a few minority community leaders, who want to have more occupational classes available, and parents ( often white) who argue that we don't have enough* college prep* classes for all that want them & that we need to make sure we aren't limiting anyones choices.</p>

<p>The community leaders- many of whom have a college degree, if not an advanced college degree, have the experience that when they attended school, or even their children, that college wasn't such a hurdle, if you had the desire to attend.
For example- My mother went to the university of washington. I think she only had a 2.00GPA and while I don't know enough about the SAT, she says she didn't have to take it to apply.- NOW the UW says that they don't have a min GPA or SAT to apply, but there are also articles about students with instate AA certificates who have a 3.7 who have been denied</p>

<p>Which from hearing stories, sounds pretty accurate. Attending state schools, even out of state public schools, and being able to afford them, sounded like if your parents were focused and you were focused you could make it happen.</p>

<p>BUt even though we obviously still have a lot of choices in colleges, I think the parents who currently have and had students go through the process, feel that it is a lot more challenging now. Not only to find a school and a way to afford it, but to have the classes that will prepare you.</p>

<p>I am not devaluing a career that doesn't require college, although it can be hard to build one that pays a living wage- but I have the perspective that if you are prepared for college in high school, ( even a CC or state school), you will have more choices than if you were steered into a vocational program, and later decide you want to go to college.</p>

<p>I advise some of these kids- so many it doesn't even occur to attend college until they are juniors or even seniors. I think if my own younger daughter didn't have a sister who was in college, it would have been pretty difficult to have gotten her interested- . I mean why would a lot of these kids want to spend 4 more years in school? Many of their classes are boring- slow- dull- or/& at the same time, stressful, bewildering & difficult.</p>

<p>I even had two parents who had attended the University, but it never occurred to me, or was mentioned that college after high school was a plan for me, or even should be considered.</p>

<p>With the focus on AP classes, in some districts I think that has changed- but that also is a class issue. Those tests are expensive!</p>

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<p>NSM's comment that parents who find time to attend Wednesday church activities but don't show up for things like college information nights at school - I see the same thing, and that's why it's important for the students to be invited to these things at schools. If you can't bring the parent along, at least try to get the student 'in the know'. Things will then be different not only for the student but for their children in the future. And I think parents go, naturally, where we feel comfortable (church vs. school). If school hasn't been a comfortable or happy or productive place for us, we're not likely to see it as that for our own kids.</p>

<p>Agree, too (from experience) that kids who live in less than ideal situations tend to learn how to help themselves and are less likely to want to return to the nest. It boomerangs, though, on the second generation - many of us strive to do/provide for our kids in ways that we weren't ourselves, and in the doing forget that people often learn the most from tribulations, not pampering.</p>

<p>Re: the AP tests and cost - yes, they're expensive, but there is provision to waive the fee directly with college board. I asked about this at our school and was told that the district will often pay the fee for students rather than going through the college board waiver process (especially if a student qualified for free or reduced lunch). We have a growing problem where no one really wants to take the AP test. The AP courses are weighted (more so than honors) and the solution is to withhold the extra weighting unless the student takes the exam. It doesn't affect seniors (since the exam scores are released in July) but it should help to keep everyone else 'honest'.</p>

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<p>I realize that for very low income families-there are few waivers through college board- our district doesn't pay for AP tests, although some school PTAs or buildings may make that contribution.</p>

<p>A family making $50,000 in Seattle or ( NYC or SF) wouldn't qualify for college board fee waivers but it would still be difficult to pay for.</p>

<p>Our oldest only applied to 4 schools as a senior and a large part of the reason was because the applications were $35 to $45 apiece- thats a big chunk of money when you are making $25 an hour ( before taxes & that doesn't count SAT tests and all that)</p>

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<p>"NSM's comment that parents who find time to attend Wednesday church activities but don't show up for things like college information nights at school - I see the same thing, and that's why it's important for the students to be invited to these things at schools. "</p>

<p>We invited students, too, and also scheduled the meeting on a non church night. IB students came, but not nonmagnet students even though it was their neighborhood school.</p>

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<p>I didn't mean to imply that it was at an inconvenient time, merely that it's harder to break a pattern - parents not attending school functions - than it is to instill a behavior - students looking to schools for help with college planning. I say the last one with a slight roll of my eyes, since I know how inadequate the help can be, still, if the school makes the effort, I make the effort to attend and support them. (Then I draw up a list of ways it can be improved and send it to the principal and head of guidance with suggestions as to ways the improvements could be implemented with the help of existing organizations like PTA.)</p>

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<p>What I was disappointed to learn,lefthandofdog, was how difficult it was to get the students to come to activities designed to help them be on track for college.</p>

<p>Even though my S and his friends didn't need those activitie, I fought to get them implemented mainly for those who couldn't get parental help due to their parents' not being educated or taking the time to be involved. Then, the bulk students who ended up participating were students who were the best off when it came to having parental help, access to resources, and the knowledge of how to find the best options for themselves.</p>

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<p>Here, CC Parents, representing a vast cross-section of schools (geographic, demographic, size-wise) either as teachers or parents, are giving voice to how access to top-tier schools is, or isn't, occurring in the lives of low/mid income families. </p>

<p>In a sense, we're in a unique position to give voice to a new data set.</p>

<p>Please continue to describe your experiences or perceptions, wherever you live.</p>

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<p>I agree with emerladity4 that it is expensive to apply to colleges and for the lower middle class family who doesn't qualify for waivers it takes it toll with paying for SAT's, ACT's, CSS profile, and AP exams which are a requirement in our district if the student is enrolled in the AP class. D only applied to 3 schools (a safety, a safety reach and a reach). She also only applied after we had gone and visited schools. This was the family vacation as we plodded around with the 6 of us in the car. I cannot even imagine spending money to apply to schools that I have only seen in school publications or on their web site. Both of which due to marketing strategies are trying to make the school look wonderful. Don't get me wrong, the publications and web sites were te first step in researching the schools. It is very tough for the low middle class family whose children attend an urban high school to complete the admissions process including financila aide applications. That doesn't mean its not done but it is tough. I am a college educated parent with a master's plus 30 and have spent as much time as my D researching information. It is not an easy process and it is time consuming.</p>

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<p>Hello parents, I hope you don't find it presumptuous for me to jump in, but addressing poverty and access to education is a passion of mine because I feel that the support for low-income students or students from low-income areas is insufficient and frankly, it's lack is an embarrassment to the country.</p>

<p>I was lucky. Even though my family is extremely poor, I attended a good public high school in Orange County, CA. Why do I say I was lucky? Because by virtue of attending a good public high school in an affluent area, I was able to learn from my friends who enjoyed the benefits of high-income, highly educated families about the ins and outs of applying to college. From hearing them talk, I learned that I should take SATIIs and sign up for AP classes, that I need to get involved with activities I have an interest in. They were a source of positive peer pressure.</p>

<p>My teachers at this school were also some of the best. It is my AP biology teacher on the scholarship committee who fought for financial support for me. It was my GC who was the sole supporter in my dream to spend senior year abroad in Italy. It was my sophomore science teacher who got me so interested in general science. They also helped me learn an attitude of ASKING for financial aid. It felt very uncomfortable at first, but I found that if I ask, wonderful things happen and if I don't, I could let opportunities slip by. For example, financial aid is not given to students at my school for AP testing unless they ask for help and fees for extracurricular activities are not waived again, unless students ask. However, by regularly asking for financial aid, I've been able to do things beyond my wildest dreams, like visiting Hong Kong for less than $400, spending a summer abroad in Beijing, attending a top tier university...</p>

<p>On the other hand, if I had attended a school where the vast majority of students were like me, from families with money bookmarked for food, not textbooks, from families that have parents without a high school diploma, I never would have found out about standardized testing or the myriad of opportunities available for low-income students. I wouldn't have sought resources on the internet like I did, learned about the college application process, applied to scholarships. It's just not part of the culture. What's more, schools in low-income regions are generally cash-strapped. After all, financial support for public schools come from property taxes! The poorer the area, the less money generated from this tax. This lack of financial resource means fewer GCs, dilapidated school facilities, no test-prep services, perhaps even mediocre teachers who can't guide their students through the process.</p>

<p>In my opinion, public education needs to be drastically revamped, starting from the elementary level and building up. The measures in place right now, that focus primarily on college education, including the ones mentioned, do help, but they are band-aids on a much larger issue. They also mostly help students who have already overcome huge barriers in order to reach a certain point instead of making sure those barriers aren't there. For example, I was part of QuestBridge, am a Gates Millennium Scholar, and am attending an Ivy school on full financial aid, but if I had gone to a different high school (or even middle school for that matter), I would never have been able to reach the caliber necessary to succeed in this way. This is why I'm dedicating all the investment in my education to making sure others will have the same ACCESS to opportunities, regardless of their background, should they want to grasp it.</p>

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<p>Dear Debryc,
Presumptuous -- heavens, no! We're just giving voice to a problem, and yours resonates.
Thanks for chiming in.</p>

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<p>I'm low income and go to an underfunded public school, but I applied to 12 colleges (most of them top-tier) without any help from parents, college programs, teachers, or guidance counselors, so it's possible.</p>

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<p>Debryc - I agree and it's sad to say but by the time students are in the high school, if something hasn't clicked in them or for them personally, they aren't in a competitive position to take advantage of those opportunities you speak of. Solutions have to come earlier, since the problems begin in elementary school.</p>

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<p>"In my opinion, public education needs to be drastically revamped, starting from the elementary level and building up. "</p>

<p>I totally agree. The educational system that we still use was designed for an agrarian society in which muscle strength was far more important than having excellent writing and critical thinking skills. Things have changed a great deal over the past centuries, and our educational system needs to be completely revamped.</p>

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<p>Agreed, Northstarmom, but until we can get at all of that, I'm eager to stay on-topic with the main thrust of this thread, namely:</p>

<p>how do low- and middle-income high school students currently appraoch the college application process? Who is helping them? What hinders their looking at selective colleges and universities, who are starting to notice their absence or at least underrepresentation (14%) on their campuses?</p>

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<p>My son's friend gave up, but not in the middle of the process. It was at the end of the process that he gave up. He is a middle class/upper middle class kid. His older sib attended a 40,000+ private school and loans were involved. They could not afford this school. The second that my son's friend graduated hs the family sold their home b/c bills were mounting up. My son's buddy applied to about 4 schools. He got into 2 schools that I know about (not sure about the other 2). Both schools were private colleges. He did not receive merit or financial aid. I believe the problems with financial aid were 2 fold. One is that these schools are known for giving generous merit aid and poor financial aid. This kid applied late in the process b/c his family was talking him out of going to college. They preferred that he attend a vocational school, so he was out of the merit aid (he was also a midrange student for these schools). I also know that the financial aid forms were not completed correctly (this was not to intentionally hoodwink the schools, just an honest error in basic info ie: an incorrect social security number). There was no family support in any step of the process (guiding regarding prep work or when to take SATs, filling out financial aid forms, which school might be affordable etc.). My son's friend has been out of school for a year now, with little direction. Truth of the matter is that the family was so strapped from kid #1 that they could not deal with college costs for kid #2. The family is a middle class/upper middle class 2 parent wage earning household.</p>

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<p>northeastmom,
I am just wondering if there is no appropriate-level in-State Public for this son #2 of your friend?</p>

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<p>Thank you for asking. The 4 year public schools in NJ are also quite expensive. There is always community college. I don't know why he has not looked into it. Perhaps he feels cheated since 98% of kids from our hs go onto 4 year colleges. Negative comments fly right and left about even instate schools that not Rutgers. Another reason could be that his sister was given the opportunity to attend an expensive private college. These are all just educated guesses. His family is still very much encouraging a vocational program. I feel that it is to avoid more debt than they already have from their older child. There is yet a third child that will need an education as well.</p>

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<p>Questbridge is a program for low income, very bright kids that helps choose and apply to top colleges.</p>

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<p>....mentioned earlier, kirmum.:)</p>

<p>Also QB has the College Match thing. Not sure how that works, though Not sure if you apply to any/all on that list, or if one gets to apply to a specific QB U or college.</p>

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<p>NE Mom, I'm about to apologize for my ignorance on this issue, because I thought I had investigated costs, & found reasonably priced NJ publics. Are they all expensive, or just some? OTOH, I'm probably subconsciously comparing these to the NE privates, & in comparison they seem "cheap."</p>