Who Supports Low/Middle Income Kids During App Process?

Parent Cafe
41

<p>from Questbridge's website:</p>

<p>1. What qualifies as "low-income?"</p>

<p>QuestBridge has no absolute limits on household income. We take many factors into consideration, including the size of a family, parents' level of education, and any extenuating circumstances or hardships that affect a family's financial situation. </p>

<p>If you are interested in the College Match, it is important to note that our college partners are specifically hoping to provide scholarships to students who would otherwise have a very difficult time affording college. Last year, the 46 College Match Scholarship recipients had incomes ranging from $0 - $60,000 per year but the range varies from year to year. Also, the 237 students admitted with generous financial aid through the Regular Admissions Process had incomes ranging from $0 - $85,000. Like QuestBridge, our colleges take many factors into consideration when determining the financial needs of a student. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.questbridge.org/students/faqs.html#s2q1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.questbridge.org/students/faqs.html#s2q1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

42

<p>"My son's friend gave up, but not in the middle of the process. It was at the end of the process that he gave up. He is a middle class/upper middle class kid. His older sib attended a 40,000+ private school and loans were involved....They could not afford this school. My son's friend has been out of school for a year now, with little direction. "</p>

<p>Seems to me that the problem is feeling entitled to go to a $40 k private school. Surely, there were cheaper options if the young man was serious about going to college. He doesn't get my sympathy nor do his folks. I am middle class, too, and what we could pay factored into my sons' college decisions and applications.</p>

<p>I'd love to drive a new Mustang, but can't afford it so I drive my 14-year-old minivan.</p>

43

<p>I had seen that previously, sybbie. I just don't understand the "Match" part. I thought I had read what I could on their website, maybe not. I don't know how it works, as to whether there's choice involved on the part of student, or if the college chooses the student. Perhaps there's a page that explains more & I didn't get to it.</p>

44

<p>"does anyone feel that the admissions process itself defies the capabilities and resources of a low- or mid-income family?" </p>

<p>Yes. It is even more so for a family of low income and foreign born parents. We are struggling in every aspect of my D's college application. I am just about to give up.</p>

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<p>epiphany, check out: <a href="http://www.questbridge.org/programs/college_match.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.questbridge.org/programs/college_match.htm&lt;/a>
and <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2871276#post2871276%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2871276#post2871276&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>laserbrother, don't give up! there are so many resources out there for low-income/mid-income families who look, and you're definitely looking! </p>

<p>keep in mind that your daughter has plenty of time to finalize her college choices and to apply to scholarships (questbridge, gates millennium, etc.). feel free to ask for advice from cc, from friends, from her high school's counselors. also, don't forget that testing fees and college application fees can be waived (see college board fee waivers) and that at many universities/colleges, extensive aid is available. Princeton, for example, will give NO LOANS in its financial aid package. that's a debt-free education! Others give great merit aid to attract bright, motivated students.</p>

<p>right now all the options out there and all the different "rules" you need to play by must seem overwhelming, but remember not to stress. things work out, they really do.</p>

46

<p>As I have mentioned on previous threads, I try to help out kids in our community with college plans. I have found that there are many high performing students and parents without a clue. As NSM indicated earlier, these kids, often top performers, frequently end up at the local state U's, which is fine if that is a well thought out choice. One kid I am currently working with is, of all things, a valedictorian. Nothing less than an A, in any class, ever. Even AP's. He planned on applying to 3 colleges, only at the last minute did I convince him and his family to apply to some others. He had not even applied to state flagship (which in my opinion is quite good). Counselors were useless, the school failed him, and the parents want the best, just don't know what that is. Two other students were in a similar situation, one actually attends a private school. All of these students would have applied to 3rd tier state schools only left to their own devices, and all have the credentials to qualify for merit aid at some really good privates. All are middle class kids.</p>

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<p>I don't really understand where is the problem. All the information is out there on the Web, including this wonderful site. If a student is planning to attend a top-tier institution, he sure will be able to find all he needs. If a student is content with attending a local public, the admission process is extremly simplified. </p>

<p>I can see the real difference only in that "visit-all-you-can" department. The rest of argumentation seems to be based on the assumption that low-income parents will be automatically less involved, and that does not sit right with me. I can understand if one talks about parents who are not well-educated, but low/middle income? </p>

<p>We are "a family of low income and foreign born parents", and we did just fine, thank you. It does not seem that lack of college visits (or a private college consultant) played any detrimental role in the admission process, and I am pretty sure that everything else was done exactly in the same manner as it is done by most of the families here on CC, no matter what income they have.</p>

48

<p>
[quote]
I don't really understand where is the problem. All the information is out there on the Web, including this wonderful site. If a student is planning to attend a top-tier institution, he sure will be able to find all he needs. If a student is content with attending a local public, the admission process is extremly simplified.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Me, while I was in high school, replying to this statement:</p>

<p>"Top tier?" I've never heard that term before, what does that mean, did you make it up? Do you mean the big famous schools, like Harvard or something? Lol, only rich people go there. But I don't wanna go to the local state school where the rest of my high school goes, and besides they don't have my major anyway. I wanna go to a better school. What makes you think that school is good? Who told you that? What do you mean, "everyone knows"? I've never heard of it. What about this school? I've heard of it, everyone in town has heard of it, and it's private and expensive...that must mean it's a good school right? Yeah, of course it does, I'll apply there. What do you mean, information? What majors it has? I looked that up on their website already, and there's instructions on the application about what you need to send with it, and that's all I need to know, isn't it? No, I didn't take a lot of APs because I don't really care about trying to be valedictorian (a speech at graduation? good lord, no, I'll just take a place in the top 10) and I don't want to take a lot of AP tests anyway (they're expensive and what's the point of going to college if you opt out of a bunch of your college classes?). I mean, there's no other real reason to take them, is there? It makes much more sense to take classes that you're actually interested in, like art.</p>

<p>And I could go on. You can't go looking for information when you don't know you were missing any to begin with. Of course it's not hard to find if you go looking for it, but to say that is missing the point.</p>

<p>I'll bet there are plenty of students out there that aren't some kind of nationally ranked superstar genius, but are pretty smart kids that did pretty well in school, but ended up somewhere that's totally wrong for them simply because they thought the process was simple and they knew all there was to know about it, and no one was around to tell them otherwise. But no one likes to think about that, because on this site it's top 5% income or low income, super brilliant Ivy-bound student or straight to the workforce student...the people in the middle don't exist.</p>

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<p>"Seems to me that the problem is feeling entitled to go to a $40 k private school...I'd love to drive a new Mustang but can't afford it, so drive my 14-year-old minivan."</p>

<p>Northstarmom, I agree that there are many options in price, and all can get an education somehow. And that there's a right fit for everybody, financially, educationally and geographically.</p>

<p>The issue is that two presidents of an elite college (Amherst) and university (Harvard), who have enough endowment to HELP middle-class kids financially in some ways, are wondering why more of them are not on their campuses. Surely they will do their due dilligence within their institutions to examine policies to find out how to change this balance.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, some wild academic student talent is walking around the state unis. Perhaps Amherst, Harvard and those who met about this middle-class imbalance would like to harvest some and make their campuses more representative of the American landscape. I don't think they're going to come and kidnap any students, but at least let's all understand why there aren't more of them on those "elite LAC and HYP..." campuses.</p>

<p>It's not about middle-class kids feeling "entitled" to anything except the full sweep of entry-gate opportunities that this country offers young people. I wouldn't be afraid that families couldn't analyze their options, even with a range of offers on the kids' table. </p>

<p>So, as one piece of the mystery, it seems fair here to ask parents and students who know this process well, whether there are glitches in the app process that discourage some middle-class candidates from doing that upscale thing of applying to 6 or 8 elites, going for interviews, etc. Maybe that's part of how some middle-class kids miss out on potential opportunities.</p>

<p>The elite schools initiated this thought-wave, and I give them credit for it, because they don't have to bother but do. </p>

<p>So I'm trying to give voice to what might be the problems in the application system. I'm not trying to siphon off every middle-class kid from the nearby, less costly schools.</p>

<p>As well, there are many testifying in these threads (others on CC as well) that when they get right down to it, the DIFFERENTIAL between the state schools and the elites (not the total sticker price) is worth it to them or their kids. This was so in the case of our family. But we are very educated and tigers with the systems, so we had our kids apply everywhere. One went to Amherst and another to OBerlin, which recently changed its motto to "Fearless."</p>

50

<p>epiphany, The 4 year state schools in NJ, IMO, are all expensive. Sure they are less expensive than private colleges if there is not any aid at the privates, but it will still cost around 20,000/year to live on campus. </p>

<p>This kid really had poor advising and planning at home, and at school, when it came to financing his education. This is how this kid dropped out during the process. The OP posed the question, and I gave an example. He is not looking for sympathy, but I know the situation and he has mine.</p>

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<p>Some states dont have anything like the STARS program in Jersey that pays for students who are in the top 20% of their high school class to go for two years to the state community colleges and again covers expenses to transfer to state 4-year schools.
<a href="http://www.njtransfer.org/index.asp?mu=menu_student&mn=njstars&vmode=student%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.njtransfer.org/index.asp?mu=menu_student&mn=njstars&vmode=student&lt;/a>
( well crap- Rutgers is only $288 per credit for part time students- UW is $888 minimum * two credits* for non matriculated students- no wonder I had D go to the community college instead of UW)</p>

<p>However- even in our state- where we no longer have the space at the flagship U to automatically enroll students with two years from the community college, even if they have a 4.0GPA, students can get a strong education & it is a great way to save money.
I know several who have attended community college and then transferred to some of the nations top schools.
Your diploma isn't going to read- hoboken junior college/Oberlin- it will just read Oberlin.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_college%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_college&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I haven't attended a 4 year college- but I know many who have & it isn't uncommon for them to remark that their profs at the college or U, often are more than comparable to the instructors they had at the CC.
I know several CC instructors who have also moved to top universities, but often times, they enjoy working at the CC level, because while they don't have the prestige of a big university, they also may have other ties to the area.</p>

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<p>BlahDeBlah

[quote]
Me, while I was in high school, replying to this statement: <...>

[/quote]

Well, almost everything you are writing there might be true for my DD, too (except the presumed ignorance about majors). More than that, all our kids were taking classes they liked, and I would be dismayed if any of them took the "AP-whoring" route to improve the odds in the admissions process. </p>

<p>Still, when DD was applying to colleges, she did all the research she thought was necessary, she got a free book with college rankings from her school (that was the only help from the school, btw), and she had the data on her prospective colleges. I am sure of it, because she told us that she does not want to apply anywhere else "because our state Uni is in top 5 for my major, and they already accepted me" - I believe that was when I, personally, heard the words "major" and "USNews" for the first time in my life. See, I am that ignorant poor foreigner everybody is so concerned about... or at least I was one then. I improved since then, and even learned the names of all Ivies just before one of my kids got into one of them. :) Wasn't really hard with the internet and all that.</p>

<p>When DD was applying, that was when we had 486 computer with dial-up, and we were deciding which search engine was better, Dogpile or Excite? And I am not even sure that collegeboard had its own website by then... but I am pretty sure there were no sites like CC. So, the problem was not that we didn't know where to look, or did not want to look, it was that the information was not as really accessible as it is now. Was it possible to look further than DD did? Yes. Would it yield better results? It might've, but not necessarily. I can point out two or three things we were ignorant about, but I really do not see how it might be anybody's fault but ours, and how could someone "support" us in that process.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You can't go looking for information when you don't know you were missing any to begin with. Of course it's not hard to find if you go looking for it, but to say that is missing the point.

[/quote]

Are you trying to say that the low- and middle-income families do not even try to look for the information? :confused: Sounds really strange to me... </p>

<p>Yes, I do find the admission process cumbersome, unnecessary muddled and unfair; but I still do not see any difference (at this moment on the IT timeline, anyway) for the wealthy families and low-income families, besides the college visits and private consultants. If the kids know what they want, they may find all the information no matter what's their income. If they do not know what they want... well, is it the fault of wealthy? If their parents do not want to be involved, what is the big difference with the wealthy parents that do not want to be involved? Hey, I do not blame anybody that they do not come to my door and tell me how incredible Maserati is? If I really want to find a car make that fits my needs, it is my job to do the research. I fail to see how it should be different with the colleges.</p>

<p>
[quote]
...pretty smart kids that did pretty well in school, but ended up somewhere that's totally wrong for them...

[/quote]

Well, there are lots of pretty smart kids from upper-middle-class families who ended up in totally wrong places, too. Even a private consultant will not guarantee that you will like your school. </p>

<p>That's beyond the point. I am still struggling to understand, how is it different for wealthy? If a kid does not know what he wants, and/or if he assumes he knows it all about admissions, and/or if the parents are ambivalent, or uneducated, or internet-illiterate... all that I can understand. What I can't understand - why all that traits are supposedly typical for low-middle-income and non-typical for high-income families? Those are not really nice presumptions, I would say. Eh?..</p>

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<p>I don't understand why you don't think environment doesn't play a big role. Students in a school in an affluent suburb where everyone's parents went to college and most of them to grad school too are obviously going to have a totally different mindset towards the college process than students at my school, where college graduates are rare, grad school is a mysterious thing people in far away cities do, and the state actually decided that the county is apparently poor enough to warrant having sales tax cut in half. Yet we are all middle-class enough that the special programs and admissions boosts reserved for low-income students will never apply to us. I think that makes a huge difference, and I do not think that the only students I know from my high school who ended up at "good" colleges are also some of the few that have college-educated parents is a coincidence. </p>

<p>I did all the research I thought was necessary, too. And 90% of what I have learned about the college admissions process, about what you should do in high school, which schools are better and what makes them better, what sort of things to look for, what sort of financial aid you can get...all of that I learned about when I was a sophomore in college wondering what went wrong when I thought I did everything right. I don't think this site existed when I was looking for colleges either...I don't know, I certainly didn't find it. I probably came across the US News rankings but I'd never heard of them before and I certainly would have never guessed that so many people considered them to be the word of god. It probably would have had the end result of depressing me anyway, since all the information here is geared towards a certain few top colleges and I would have pretty much needed to start preparing in 7th grade or so to get into one, so learning the information in 11th grade would not have been helpful. </p>

<p>But again, we'd already been told all about the college admissions process by the guidance counselors at the generic school assembly, and my gifted & talented group didn't hold its own admissions info session, which led me to the conclusion that 1) the information was universal and 2) there wasn't any more to know about it. I never saw any evidence that pointed to the contrary until I stumbled across this site by accident. But by all means you may continue to think that it is 100% my fault and that there were absolutely no outside factors...everything else is my always fault as well, my parents have made sure to pound that fact into my head.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Some states dont have anything like the STARS program in Jersey that pays for students who are in the top 20% of their high school class to go for two years to the state community colleges

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This kid would not qualify for this program. I don't know anyone who took advantage of this program from our hs, as community college is not encouraged. This program has never been mentioned at any college meeting that I have attended. I do know one young lady who has used the star program. Her father has been unemployed for over one year, so this program was just terrific for her! She comes out of a large less competitive hs, so even though she is an okay student she qualifies. A student with same ability from our public hs will not be in the top 20%, or anywhere close to it.</p>

55

<p>The word "mindset" has come up several times on this thread by different posters. H.S. teachers who've posted described that they intervened to help once they understood that the parent of an extremely promising student lacked the "mindset" to support a wide-ranging college search. </p>

<p>When I taught elementary school in a rural poverty district, the administration brought in a consultant (!) from Denver whose job it was to educate teachers on the mindset of the students' parents. He said that the difference between lower and middle class is not the amount of money, but the absorption of working-class parents in the day-to-day, with no time to plan for the future. </p>

<p>He said, "If you got as far as teachers' college, you already are geared towards thinking about your life a week, month, or six months ahead. You decide upon a goal or place you'd like to be sometime hence, and then arrange your choices around getting towards that goal.</p>

<p>"Understand that, for your students' families, this is not occurring. They must ricochet between their last paycheck and the next bill without having any utilities turned off. If they lose a job, they might have to move quickly to still be able to pay rent, so run off to find another apartment at the same time they look for a new job. With that nearsighted focus--and even though they love their children deeply--they have no time to ponder what will be so for the children six months hence. </p>

<p>Perhaps that is the "mindset" problem. If a child is raised where longterm planning is not in the family culture, why would it begin as the child enters high school and the family expects him to be even more independent than ever?</p>

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<p>I certainly wasn't challenging you, NE Mom. I simply wanted to know for my own information.</p>

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<p>Oh, epiphany I know that. My second comment was not intended to address your question.....sorry, I was not clear. It is just that another poster commented that they did not have sympathy for this kid b/c there is a way to get an education.</p>

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<p>I come from a low-income, mostly uneducated family. I cannot remember how many times I felt like giving up completely. But there's one person who kept me from giving up completely. Thank God for her. I ended up applying to ten schools (Harvard, Yale, Penn, Dartmouth, Williams, Trinity, Colgate, URochester, Brandeis and Stony Brook), and to this day I don't know how I managed to pull that off. I doubt I'll get into most of them, but at least I know that I tried. :)</p>

<p>I'm also thankful for this site, as my counselor is extremely overworked and I feel as if I know more about colleges than she does. Most of the information I know comes from this site. And my parents are very supportive, but can't really help me at all (My mom asked me if Yale was a CUNY school...) </p>

<p>As for visiting schools, I haven't done much of that...the only school I've visited really is Penn. I feel bad when I have to make my parents by ~$100 for a bus ride to go to a school that I think I'll ultimately be rejected from.</p>

<p>But oh well, we'll see in about a month how this all turns out.</p>

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<p>meadweb, I just want to wish you the best of luck!</p>

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<p>The participation of low income students in extensive application processes mainly involves diligence and outside influence from other students. My household income is less than $20k, but I found myself in a small group of students who ranked in the top of their classes, were very competitive, and applied to top schools. Only about 5-10 students in each class get accepted and attend, and none of them were low income. But with my group of friends, I had to stay competitive and apply to top schools.
The largest burden is definitely the cost. I used fee waivers for most of my apps, but testing and mailing drove the costs into hundreds of dollars (which I paid for myself). I was also not informed much about testing; kids rarely take the SAT at my school, and no one ever takes SATII's. An impressive ACT is a 30, which only about 10 students receive each year in classes of about 350. I would also say my school generally discourages kids to apply to top schools, offering no AP's but several college credit courses which only transfer to state schools. Many programs encourage students to attend community college and stay in state where WashU is the only top school.
Other than that, it was quite easy. I work 25 hours/week, but I started my apps in August, gave teachers & counselor two months to finish recommendations, and finished early. My mother, who never graduated high school, only supplied me with her W-2's and tax returns during my entire process.
I would say in most cases, low income students are not encouraged to try or know that they even have a chance. Need-blind policies and great financial aid programs aren't well known, so many decide that type of education is too expensive and give up before researching.</p>