Who's going to take the AMC 10/12 in Feb 2009?

<p>Im taking both.</p>

<p>Got 8 on AIME last year and 144 on AMC 10
This year i doubt ill get that high because i really dont care about math that much but hopefully i can still make USAMO</p>

<p>Ahh you guys should definetly buy AoPS 1 and 2 because they will pretty much guarentee passing AMC 12 if you can learn everything from those books</p>

<p>If you want to take these exams, first check with your school that they offer them (math club probably). If they dont you can contact nearby schools and ask if they would be willing to let you in to take the exams adminstered at those schools.</p>

<p>AMC is 25 questions 75 minutes, AIME is 15 questions 3 hours (average scores is like 2), USAMO is 9 hours, 2 days (4.5 h), 6 questions (and get owned) NO CALCULATORS ON ANY OF THE TESTS</p>

<p>AMC is about 5x harder than SAT II Math in my opinion, requires some tricks (especially 15-25)...but you need 100 to pass the AMC to make AIME, and usually 6-7 on AIME to make USAMO</p>

<p>Making USAMO is like ++++ on college applications, making AIME is good too since only about 3 percent of AMC takers make it (AMC 12-5, AMC 10-1)</p>

<p>Nope. I'm a senior and know I won't be doing anything with my sad score, haha.</p>

<p>I am taking this test.
USAMO is really difficult to qualify for.
I'm not counting on it. I'm just going to have fun.</p>

<p>Here I can think of a typical AMC probelm off my head if you want an example </p>

<p>(SAMPLE QUESTION)A polynomial p(x) has remainder three when divided by x-1 and remainder five when divided by x-3. The remainder when p(x) is divided by (x-1)(x-3) is?</p>

<p>This is pretty fair question if you want to know difficulty, about a number 15 on AMC 12</p>

<p>Yeah, the contests are intense but they're quite doable...I'm sure my scores out there somewhere on CC, qualified for USAMO as a frosh last year but didn't prep for it at all...and guys for info on AMC, there are some really good old threads...just search for them...</p>

<p>i might be taking it in febuary, although im a senior so it wont really benefit me in any way. it would be my first time taking the series.</p>

<p>DISCLAIMER - i've never actually taken an AMC of any kid, this is based solely on my experience w/ practice problems.</p>

<p>Ok here is how id generally advise preparing for american mathematics competition series:
The most important thing to understand is that mathematics is not STUDIED. it is DONE. </p>

<p>if youre looking just to qualify for AIME, aops 1 is sufficient.</p>

<p>going through 1 and 2 should get you to USAMO easily, itll cover most tricks youd need and/or topics not taught in school. (combinatorics, number theory, more geometry.) </p>

<p>AOPS subject books are great for this also, up to maybe basic USAMO (like #1/4), and just for learning material in general.</p>

<p>on both AMC/AIME, it is important to WATCH YOUR COMPUTATIONS, especially if youre computationally challenged like me. </p>

<p>USAMO preparing is slightly more complicated. you need to know how to write proofs.</p>

<p>advice for this:
honestly the difficulty of proving things is vastly overstated.
learn a proof by contradiction, induction etc. for an example of induction see any discrete math book. for proof by contradiction just look up euclid's proof that there are infinitely many primes. </p>

<p>topics you'll need to know:
algebra: most of this is pretty basic stuff like properties of polynomials, complex #s, sequences, etc. nothing really new.
geometry: this is where it gets interesting. you can usually solve most geo problems with the tools developed in aops 2, but if you like theory you may look into stuff like projective geometry, transformations, inversions, geometry of complex numbers etc. (really not necessary though.) cut-the-knot is a cool resource here.
number theory: nothing special/advanced required here for the most part, its mostly just practice.
combinatorics: i always find this to be hard for whatever reason. honestly id recommend picking up an introductory college combinatorics text, itll be comprehensive.
graph theory: same as above, although seeing as its a college subject i honestly don't get why its on usamo.
inequalities: many pdfs available for download, its basically just algebraic manipulation. lately hasnt really appeared on USAMO, i guess.
invariants/colorings/logic/etc..: this is a new type of problems which dosent really appear on AIME/AMC. basically you look for something which dosent change. its harder than it sounds because the invariants are usually hard to find (to me they just seem random, but thats because im bad at these kind of problems.) </p>

<p>note that altough i might be making this sound easy USAMO is not really easy in any way. preparation is straightforward, problems not so much.</p>

<p>practicing problems is important here. usually after aops 2 people proceed to zeitz (art and craft of problem solving) and engel's problem solving strategies. also for individual areas of math, the books by andreescu/feng are good and have problems from AMC - olympiad level. coxeter's geometry revisited is recommended.</p>

<p>in general, the most imporant thing, to reiterate, is PRACTICE. this is a LEARNED skill. on aops i remember reading a post where an IMO gold medalist reported getting 80/150 on AMCs when they began doing those type of problems. (genius is after all mostly based on how much work you do.)</p>

<p>for example the problem posted by HiPeople above can be solved by a standard trick/process using remainder theorem, probably taught in aops 1 or 2. by doing problems you will learn the necessary tricks/processes for AMC/AIME. for usamo the same is true, but problems dont really fall to tricks, which imo is what makes it challenging.</p>

<p>Considering that you have no experience with the competitions you provided a relatively good deal of information, but personally, it seems like you are making AIME/USAMO seem trivial...which they definitely are not...</p>

<p>
[quote]
going through 1 and 2 should get you to USAMO easily, itll cover most tricks youd need and/or topics not taught in school. (combinatorics, number theory, more geometry.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>^IMHO that is not the case, I know many people (at least 20) that have memorized these books and taken WOOT and still not qualified for USAMO....</p>

<p>Look at this thread for good advice:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/570764-amc-12-american-mathematics-competition.html?highlight=145.5%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/570764-amc-12-american-mathematics-competition.html?highlight=145.5&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>i have not SAT a competition. i have a fair amount of experience with contest problems, though. note the disclaimer at the top of my post. (for the long story, i found out that AMC existed right around when it happened last yr, when i accidently found AOPS)</p>

<p>making AIME is (in my opinion pretty trivial), i mean you only have to do the first 15 or 16 questions if you take AMC 12, and leave everything else blank. they dont really get difficult until like #20. (ofc youre going to want around 140ish if you want to make USAMO) the main problem, i think, is having time to check computations, especially now with the no calculator thing. i think they'll be making the problems more conducive to this as time goes on as this was the first year without calculators. </p>

<p>i dont mean to say that making USAMO is trivial, but rather, the preparation itself is straightforward. that is, there is a generally accepted set of resources to use, and the generally accepted way to get better is by doing problems. not to say that AIME problems are trivial - most of them aren't. but with experience you can (usually) find a way to do them. i think the best thing to do, actually, would be to try to solve like 11 or 12, but be 100% SURE those 11/12 are right - its better than attempting all 15 and making dumb mistakes on 10 of them because of insufficient checking.</p>

<p>AIME i think the main problem is again stupid mistakes. i dont get why they dont let people use a small scientific calculator - there are no computations on USAMO and honestly its just going to f over people who make dumb mistakes in arithmetic. </p>

<p>i maintain the position, though, that most of the problems on the AMC/AIME can be solved once one has enough experience. some, not so much, for example 2007 AIME II #14.</p>

<p>Another thing is the wide disparity in difficulty between AIMEs. For example the 2008 AIME I was pretty easy. (this seemed to be the consensus on aops..) other ones not as much.</p>

<p>Ok I dont want to sound like a ----- but i do have some conflicting statements with what you just said (just trying to give an opinion like you), sorry in advance if i sound too harsh</p>

<p>"There are no computations on the USAMO"
For probelm number 1 last year I brute forced some huge numbers (like in the trillions) to find the pairwise prime relationship, somehow ended up getting that x^2n (or something like that) and got partial credit...most problems require you to brute force something before you do it (check out two years ago 7^7^n)</p>

<p>"going through 1 and 2 should get you to USAMO easily, itll cover most tricks youd need and/or topics not taught in school. (combinatorics, number theory, more geometry.) "
I was going to post something but I saw that databox already posted it lol...yea this is defiently not true. My friend went over AOPS 2 and he didnt pass AMC 10 last year...let alone AIME...going through books may let you pass AMC 12 but not AIME, if you want what you called "learned formulas" thats SAT math not AIME/USAMO</p>

<p>"honestly the difficulty of proving things is vastly overstated.
learn a proof by contradiction, induction etc. for an example of induction see any discrete math book. for proof by contradiction just look up euclid's proof that there are infinitely many primes. "</p>

<p>This is 110% an OVERSTATEMENT FOR USAMO PROBELMS (maybe not for regular math probellms). No way is just true. Prove by contradiction. USAMO probelms are not like "prove that sqrt2 is irrational" or "prove that 1^3+2^3+3^3...+n^3=(1+2+3+4+...+n)^2"</p>

<p>Here ill give you one from USAMO (totally different as you can see)</p>

<p>(This was probably the EASIEST USAMO probelm ever written)
"A computer screen shows a 98X98 chessboard, colored in the usual way. One can select with a mouse any rectangle with sides on the lines of the chessboard and click the mouse button: as a result, the colors in the selected rectangle switch (black becomes white, white becomes black). Find, with proof, the minimum number of mouse clicks needed to make the chessboard all one color. " (this was recent 1998)</p>

<p>Even with this problem, I guarentee, there are less than 1000 high school students in America that can solve it flawlessly</p>

<p>Ugh yea I gave a bad probelm using remainder theorem ya lol that was straight forward i admit...but thats AMC...seriously, I believe that AIME probelms are definelty not straightfofrward or trivial.</p>

<p>I bet that 80% of 800s scores on SAT math cannot even get 5/15 AIME probelm when given a month to do them and thye can use a calculator</p>

<p>Hey ejr...what if I told you that I consistently score 11-14 on hard AIMEs but ended up getting only 9 on last year's? There is a significant difference between officially scoring something and just sitting at home and working on old problems without the pressure and stress associated with a normal test...</p>

<p>And I will be willing to bet my money that 95% of the 800's on the SAT math section could not score even a 4 on an official AIME...</p>

<p>^ I got 800 on SAT math, and also SAT II math IIC, and also a 5 on the Calculus BC exam, and I am also taking a college math course, but I got a 90 on the AMC 12 last year. Hoping to break 100 this year..</p>

<p>ok, ejr322 , to be honest when you say to be sure to do 11-12 and solve them correctly and not worry about the test, that is a good strategy but only about 200 people in the national can even have the ability to solve 11-12 right (honest i cant, i can only do about 10 on the recent AIMEs).
Basically, what I am trying to say is that the AIME is way harder than you would think-harder than any other computational math competition in the United States.
Yea on a timed AIME, probably 95 percent of 800 on SAT cant even get a 4/15 and probalby 95 percent Calc BC 5s cant either, maybe more...another one of friends got 800 on Nov SAT but got 96 on AMC 10 (yes 10 not 12) last year</p>

<p>Btw DataBox, you own...i studied like 2 hours everyday entire summer between 8th and 9th grade lol and you didnt study and got higher than me.
Ahh yea thats when I had no life lol</p>

<p>i did not mean to say that the extent of the proofs written on the USAMO are "prove that sqrt(2) is irrational", but rather, the TECHNIQUES of proof themselves, such as indcution and contradiction are the same idea, applied to more difficult problems. induction is still induction, whether it is a simple formula or a more complicated problem. the two things i stated were EXAMPLES so that a reader unfamiliar with those words might have something to look up. you wouldn't, after all, try to learn induction by reading solutions to USAMO prolems.
i dont know of anything that might appear on AIME that is not in AOPS 2, if you know of something off the top of your head i'd love to know to i can go learn it.</p>

<p>Again i mean to say not that the problems themselves are trivial, but that preparation is straightforward. im really not so great at writing/self expression/communicational skills, forgive me here. </p>

<p>on the brute force thing: it's not that brute force is an invalid solution - hardly so. but, it's not like its the only thing you will use, and i dont think it'd be inaccurate to say that the writers do not write the problems to be solved only by brute force.the two solutions i am familiar with for 2008/1, one used induction, one used chinese remainder theorem.</p>

<p>i wouldnt try to draw a correlation between calc BC and AMC/AIME - the two are nothing alike. calc BC is fairly plug and chug, AMC not so much.</p>

<p>Databox:</p>

<p>I guess i can understand the doing lower due to stress on a test, but imo i dont really see what there is to worry about. i mean, if you stress youre only more likely to make computation errors, misinterpert problems, etc. it's just a math competition after all, and it can only help you with respect to college admissions. better to be optimistic about it than worry about it.</p>

<p>oh no wait brute force is invalid, what i was tyring to say is that you only see the ideas after brute force. How do you know to use induction, because brute force tells you to.</p>

<p>anyways, the more i read your posts the more i think you should have really taken the AMC (if you had the opportunity)...</p>

<p>Honestly, if you really think that they are easy (sorry in no way am i trying to sound sarcastic), you really should have taken the AMC earlier.</p>

<p>If you really do know what you are talking about (lol i barely know chinese remainder theorem-something with mods thats all i know), the more i think you probably would have qualified for USAMO if you had gotten an opportunity (which, if any thing else, is like +++++ for colleges)</p>

<p>Becasue, even for someone like me who qualified last year, I have trouble doing USAMO probelms and sometimes even understanding the solutions (like on number 6 with Graph Theory and number 2 with Inversion-from 2008). It seems like you really know this stuff...because most people would find even the AMC 10 daunting.</p>

<p>but yea i have studied like probably over 200 total hours for AMC/AIME/USAMO and probalby only 50 total for SAT/PSAT so you can see how much i appreciate it...btw yes i have no life although i gotta say its better than those kids that only do SAT but dont do competitons like this.</p>

<p>i would have taken them had i known of their existence. im a senior though so it wont help me really, plus im REALLY bad at arithmetic. to give you an idea i once got 24/27 on an AP test because i did the entire problem right but switched 23s and 32s, dropped 0's, etc. etc.. i dont really know why this is.</p>

<p>yes, brute force and/or playing around w/ problem is good for finding the basic relationships. i got the impression from your post that you tried to brute force the entire problem. </p>

<p>the two solutions i mentioned were from aopswiki.</p>

<p>about the stuff i mentioned:
i don't have much knowledge of inversion at all. i know that it CAN be used to solve things on USAMO. same with graph theory, although USAMO is a highschool contest and graph theory is undergrad subject so idk why its even on there.. but i digress. this is what books are for, after all. plus i like theory, so itll be fun to learn. tbh i can usually only get #1/4 on USAMO right now, maybe 2s if theyre in algebra. i know ive definetly improved from last april though when i couldnt even do AMC.</p>

<p>usually, the way i do problems, is "see <strong><em>", "do _</em></strong>_". for example, if i see "for all positive integers n" i immediatley think "INDCUTION!!" or if i see "prove there exists" i think "PIGEONHOLE". and so forth.</p>

<p>it's interesting that you say you have trouble understanding the solutions. this reminds me of a blog post i read on AOPS which discussed "theory building vs. problem solving".
for example, i find the solutions to USAMO problems understandable (not to say i could have solved the problem, but having read the proof, the argument convinces me.) my main problem is finding the MOTIVATION for some steps. this is why i HATE invariant problems with a passion - steps lack motivation to me. i remember in WOOT some invariant problem was like "we index the sequence with powers of the golden ratio" and i just thought "wow this is total bs..". </p>

<p>i think, that if you are familiar with AP calc material and want to do USAMO, that it is a good idea to pick up a book like Apostol/Spivak etc.. which discusses theory. i found that this exposure to theory made stuff like usamo problems, and even AIME, make more sense, even though the math itself is not directly related. it helps you get used to abstraction, i guess.</p>

<p>Hey I don't want to interrupt the conversation, but I'd to know this info: what's the difference between Test Date A and B other than the physical test date? Can I pick (being the person who decides what competitions our MAO does) which date I want, or is test date dependent on region or some other factor?</p>

<p>^ Yea you can pick. Check the website. You can also take both tests if you want. Though you will have to pay more. Also, yea, I don't want to interrupt your guys' "debate" but I kinda need help here..and seeing how both of you guys seem extremely good at this, could you give me some beginner tips on how to get 100+ ? And I mean specific tips, like what chapters out of AoPS should I study extensively for AMC 12? Also, I have a bunch of practice tests, should I practice those? And when I look at the problems, especially #10-15, they get so hard. I just can't think of a way to solve them..if you know what I mean. any suggestions on how to get into this "creative" way of thinking about these problems?</p>

<p>I think a lot of the difficulty might come from the fact that the AMC is timed so you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself this way to find a solution quickly, so just try a couple of problems in the range by themselves, and it could even take a couple of hours to actually get to a solution if this is your first time stuff. This happens with me a lot too, and is probably the reason why I can usually do more of the 5-10 on the AIME than the 20-25 on the AMC.</p>

<p>AMC and ability to do well in Calculus are not correlated very strongly.
My friend and I both got 5's on Calc BC but he got an A in the class while I ended up with a B-.
However, my friend only got an 80 on the AMC in his senior year, while I got a 115 my junior year and a 97.5 my sophomore year (AMC 12).</p>

<p>lol thanks hipeople =)</p>

<p>and tomjonesistheman read through the link I posted before for tips....
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/570764-amc-12-american-mathematics-competition.html?highlight=145.5%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/570764-amc-12-american-mathematics-competition.html?highlight=145.5&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>