Who's read "A is for Admissions" book?

Parents Forum
41

<p>"Maybe I'll win over Xiggi whose posts I have always enjoyed!"</p>

<p>Boy, I am in trouble now! I could try to get away with it by saying, "Qui bene amat, bene castigat" :)</p>

<p>On a serious note, I should have added a few explanations to my earlier caustic comments. I wrote the post quite rapidly, and there are no edits possible on CC. I should have been more clear that the main issue with the second book was that it was a bit of a letdown from the first one, mostly because you set the bar so high. I guess it must be impossible to write two eye-openers on the same subject. </p>

<p>That said, I always try to share my views and opinions as honestly and directly as possible. It is easier to write praise than criticisms. </p>

<p>I hope you and your next book will give me the chance to redeem myself!</p>

42

<p>A is for Admission--</p>

<p>I think it's great that you read and post on CC, and I can't resist the opportunity to ask two questions that I've been wondering about for a long time:1. How does the trend toward the elimination of class rank affect AIs?</p>

<ol>
<li> How routinely is the AI used at Ivies and other colleges?Thanks so much for any further light you can shine in the darkness ;).</li>
</ol>

43

<p>
[quote]
Many brilliant students simply write atrocious apps so they in effect do themselves in.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What makes it even sadder is that, with an academic 8 or 9, a nice, simple, straightfoward, unpretentious application that highlights a couple of interests in a way that allows the poor bleary-eyed adcom to picture a living, breathing teenager is all you need.</p>

<p>My guess is that a surefire recipe for a rejection by these kids is the 16 pound application, full of pretention, puffing up every single item on a three-page resume into some earthshattering accomplishment. That and the "Why Frederick Nietiche is the Historical Figure I Admire Most" essays.</p>

44

<p>Those are two good questions and rather hard to answer. The trend to eliminate class rank just makes it much harder for colleges to figure out where a student stands. IMO, it HURTS kids because colleges can no longer figure out who the top kids really are. Getting rid of rank or not reporting GPA distribution basically helps some middle range kids, but always hurts the top kids. Smart counselors get around this by stating class position in the letter, "although we don't rank, John is clearly our top student this year." So basically colleges have to sift through lots of info. The AI is only a MUST for athletes, but my point has always been that everyone can get a ROUGH idea by using it. But, it does help for students to gage where they might fall in the class. The AI is alwyas used for athletes and then it's hard to say. Some schools like DArtmouth calculate one for every student, but some don't. THe ivies are supposed to calculate an AI for all students simply because of all the athletic rules (athletes have to be within so many standard deviations from the AVERAGE AI so how can they figure that out unless they do an AI for every student?), but they don't always.</p>

<p>And as a reply to Xiggi, I'm his biggest fan, and I'm understand how hard it is for someone who provides as much accurate info as he does to always scrutinize his posts. I'm betting he'll enjoy my new book :-) It's actually my forth...</p>

45

<p>I've just finished "A for Admission". Thanks, Michelle: it absolutely clarified why the 3.9 GPA, "high" SAT, President of the Student Council, nice guy and the Asian 1600 SAT AND 36 ACT didn't get into any IVY or top tier LAC, but the 3.3 GPA, best in state, African American basketball player got in to Williams. It seems like my DD (3.96 unweighted GPA, 2 AP's soph year scores 3 (EH) and 5 (French), 3 AP's this year, 5 scheduled next year, 35 ACT is really going to get screwed by the CRS. Class size only 67 in competitive private school (12/70 this year were Nat Merit Schol)...she's been inducted into the "Cum Laude" Society which only inducts the top 5% of juniors and 10% of seniors, but her school only reports quartile rank. So she's screwed in the AI since she can't get a CRS much above the mid 60's. Is there any way to fix this?</p>

46

<p>Interesting about unreported class rank. My daughter, is in a competitive IB program in an inner city magnet school. She has 4.0 UW. They rank the IB kids against all the schools in the county, so when she checked, her rank was 67 out of 10,000! She said the kids above her have higher weightings due to taking college courses during summers and more highly weighted electives. She's well adjusted, has an active social life and many ECs, so there's no way I would want her to try to be at the very top, though she's certainly capable. I'm not sure how that effects her AI, though.</p>

47

<p>Well, I'll repeat what I wrote on another thread and elaborate a bit.</p>

<p>My S is not ranked to his graduating early; I've been playing on the Academic Index provided on CC which tells posters to use class rank as opposed to GPA together with board scores. So I've assumed that my S has the same board scores and the same GPA. If he ranks 1-3, he is 9/9; 4-10, he is 8/9 and if he is 11-24 he is 7/9.
So, it seems to me, the students who suffer the most from ranking are at the very top. It may be a tiny gap that separates 3 from 4, but being ranked 4th makes a student drop from 9 to 8 on the AI. At the same time, there might be a real difference in GPA between someone ranked 11th and someone ranked 24th, but both receive a 7/9 on the AI.</p>

48

<p>Moving up. Any thoughts on Charles Hughes book?</p>

49

<p>The thing I liked about Chuck Hughes's book was the very specific list of nationally recognized summer programs and EC awards that are noted by admissions officers--even though that list wasn't complete or completely accurate in the field I follow most closely. The thing I liked least about Chuck Hughes's book was his many problems with English usage, such as persistenly using the word "utilize" where the word "use" would work just as well, and his hang-up about the word "myriad," which is just plain wrong. </p>

<p>The most valuable perspective to be found in Hughes's book is the "broken leg" question: what would you do with your life if you ended up failing in your favorite EC and couldn't pursue it anymore?</p>

50

<p>Michele Hernandez—</p>

<p>Thanks so much for explaining further about the AI. Admissions can be an arcane and confusing process, and inside information like yours is incredibly valuable.</p>

<p>I keep thinking of the famous first line of Dr. Spock’s childcare guide, which told parents, “You know more than you think you do.” When it comes to college admissions, it seems that we sometimes know less than we think: We have an image of how admissions should work, or how it worked in our day (I still remember when it was an article of faith that the SATs were such pure intelligence tests that it was impossible to study for them); and besides, our children’s merits are so patently obvious—to us, of course, but often also to their schools and communities—that they must be immediately obvious to anyone who considers their application. (I came across a recent article in the Wall Street Journal that made the similar point that well-meaning parents often given outdated advice to kids who are looking for jobs in the present economy.)</p>

<p>Like Interesteddad, I believe it’s important to heed Michele’s advice that, given a certain level of achievement, gaining admission to all but the most impossible colleges is “all about the application itself.” As much as we may feel that our kids’ virtues ought to speak for themselves, the more thoroughly we understand how adcoms work, the more genuinely useful advice we can give to our children.</p>

51

<p>If I may sneak in a couple of personal questions for Ms. Hernandez...Does having both parents have gone to Dartmouth help more than just one? How does Dartmouth view a mixed race student from a top prep school, do I get URM consideration?</p>

<p>It's so great that you're here!</p>

52

<p>I am also a big fan of Chuck Hughes's book for those who are applying to the most competitive schools. It is especially helpful in clarifying that being a standout in your community EC in sports, music, dance, etc. is not at all the same as being a standout in HYPS admissions, where they looking to hear about participation in the programs and events that draw the top kids on the state and national levels. </p>

<p>I also want to put in a word for College Confidential's own Dave Berry's book on elite college admissions; it contains a point-by-point description of the way one student put together his application and is extremely helpful for those who do not realize that although you may have great scores, great grades, and great ECs, that application itself had better be very carefully thought through look like a work of art.</p>

53

<p>I can answer the URM question.</p>

<p>The only thing that matters is the presence or absense of ink in the race/ethnicity checkboxes on the application. If there is ink in the Latina or African-American or Native American checkboxes, your app will be tagged as a URM and given special consideration. If there is not, it won't. If you check, for example, African-American and White, you will be tallied as African-American.</p>

<p>My recommendation is to consider those checkboxes just like any other piece of information on the app. Will it increase my chances of admission? When providing information increases the chances, I woudl do so. When providing voluntary information does not, I would not volunteer it. </p>

<p>Volunteering Latino, African-American, or Native American ancestry definitely increases admissions odds.</p>

<p>Volunteering White ancestry definitely hurts admissions odds.</p>

<p>Volunteering Asian-American ancestry has to be evaluated on a school by school and applicant by applicant basis.</p>

<p>The percentage of students refusing to volunteer race/ethnicity information on their applications is skyrocketing in recent years.</p>

54

<p>Thanks interesteddad. My mom is black and my father white. She went to Dartmouth from a ghetto in Queens NY, he from a wealthy CT suburb. So interesting to me that two very different people fell in love with the same school (not to mention each other)!</p>

<p>I was raised mostly by my mother after a divorce and went to majority black schools for many years. But for high school I ended up at Andover, so I think a lot of schools won't see me as needing a tip. Plus, I look white! I'm really not sure how schools will see me.</p>

<p>I have a 1510 SAT and strong IIs, good but not stellar ECs and am high in my class. What do you think? There are many other legacies in my class and just way bigger stars at my school.</p>

55

<p>Suze -- technically you don't get extra credit for having both parents graduate from Dartmouth or just one, but still sometimes the admissions office has a soft spot for double legacies. As for the URM, interestedad pretty much has it right -- you should get some URM help, but not as much as you might if you came from the ghetto etc.. In effect, as I mention in the book, the conversation comes up, "how red is your tag" or "how black." In other words, how culturally black are you or how culturally Native american are you? Given two native american students, one who lives on a reservation and has many cultural ties and one who went to prep school who claims a 1/4 or 1/8 tie but has no activities related to being native american, the first student wins! Of course if it's a low year for minority admissions, they may reach out to more, but my feeling is you'll get some break, but not a huge one. </p>

<p>As for Chuck Hughes book, I really find his book VERY helpful especially in highlighting the level of competition. I have two young kids and completely understand why we always think our kids are the best, but remember, they compete against the whole country, not just their school and that's the difference. Thanks for all the questions -- I'm having fun!</p>

56

<p>Suze:</p>

<p>You need to borrow a copy of "The Gatekeepers" from the school library and pay particular attention to the story of the girl from Harvard-Westlake prep in Los Angeles.</p>

<p>With your SATs, a high class rank at Andover, a checkmark in the Af-Am box, and an an application that falls in the decent to good category, Dartmouth (or any other school of similar selectivity) will be an appropriate safety for your college list. There is no such thing as a "reach" for you. In fact, every school you apply to will wine and dine you to attend. </p>

<p>A "tip" doesn't begin to describe the way schools will be falling over themselves to recruit you. They will all send you plane tickets to visit, etc. I will be shocked if you ever see a rejection letter or waitlist, regardless of where you apply -- again, assuming you don't submit one of those "horrendous" applications Michele Hernandez refered to.</p>

<p>[Note: Having said all that, you should still apply to at least one college down the selectivity chain from Dartmouth just for piece of mind. But, you won't need it.]</p>

<p>As long as you check the Af-Am box, you are all set. Whether you decide to also check the White box is up to you. It won't make any difference one way or another. Your app will go into the URM pile.</p>

<p>The only potential downside: some kids in your situation kind of resent being singled out for special treatment -- the "diversity days", the assumption that you automatically want to be hosted by the Af-Am Student Group your visits, rather than being treated like any other applicant, etc. If you feel that way, then just tell 'em.</p>

<p>If you are lookin' around for essay topics, I would consider the possibility of writing a (hopefully positive) essay about your experiences in both black high-schools and an elite prep school. That's a topic that not many kids can write about and I think it would be the kind of thing that could resonate postively in admissons offices. Doesn't have to draw any grand, sweeping conclusions (perhaps better if it doesn't) -- just paint the reader a picture of a few simple events that give a glimpse of your experience. </p>

<p>BTW, a very significant chunk of the URM students at the ultra-elite colleges are of mixed race and may or may not "look" like their checkbox on the app. Offhand, I would guess as many as a quarter of the students at my daughter's school are "something" AND "something else". It's a pretty cool environment when race and ethnicity become non-issues because the lines are so indistinct nobody can figure them out to begin with. How do you "stereotype" a Chilean/Pakistani?</p>

57

<p>
[quote]
As for the URM, interestedad pretty much has it right -- you should get some URM help, but not as much as you might if you came from the ghetto etc.. In effect, as I mention in the book, the conversation comes up, "how red is your tag" or "how black."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While this is almost certainly true, we are not talking about comparing two roughly equal mid-pack URM applicants here. We are talking about a top class rank at a top prep AND 1500+ SATs, and an Af-Am checkmark. There are not many applications in that particular stack.</p>

<p>I do agree that the applicant would be well-served to emphasize the single-parent Af-Am mother and the experiences at the black high schools in the application, for the reasons that you mention. In considering the app, Suze should think of things that will reduce any appearance of being a "priveledged preppie". That's probably true of any prep applicant, but Suze just happens to be in a bette position to do it with some interesting available essay topics.</p>

<p>I also suspect that legacy kids of early black alum at elite colleges tend to get above average consideration. Not too many apps in THAT pile either. It's validation that 40 years of affirmative action has actually worked.</p>

58

<p>The rationale for getting rid of class rank by private colleges is simple: it is the one place where applications of the sons and daughters of the rich and powerful, legacies and developmental admits who attend Phillips whatever would "objectively" be said to be lacking. Rather than be accused of providing even further affirmative action to the wealthy, it is easier to get rid of the measure in its entirety. After all, if they are accepted they are the best; we know they are the best because they were accepted.</p>

<p>(If I ran the institution, I'd do exactly the same thing.)</p>

<p>P.S. I roomed next to a guy who finished second to last in his class at Exeter. His father was president of what was then the largest bank in Europe. Anyway, he did just fine at Williams, took mostly soft courses, skied a lot, finished in the middle of his class, and ended up becoming, of course, a European banker. The best way you can help your college admissions chances is to choose your parents wisely. ;))</p>

59

<p>Thanks Ms. Hernandez and interesteddad.</p>

<p>Interesteddad, you bring up something I have been thinking about for an essay topic, the fact that I am the manifestation of Dartmouth's AA success. My mother was recruited by them from a bad public school and had never even heard of the school. She arrived at Dartmouth having never visited or even left the State she came from.I think most would have never thought she could make it through an ivy college given her background. She didn't do particularly well there grade wise but she did well in most ways. She made life long friends with so many people from different backgrounds. Many of their families reached out to help her get launched. She went out into the world and did very well in real life. She raised well educated kids and is an amazing contributer to the communities in which she has lived. She credits Dartmouth with the life she has as compared to what it might have been (her parents told her not to fill out the application because they couldn't spend money on college).</p>

<p>I honestly do credit the school with bringing together my vastly different parents and creating a multi culture environment that I credit for so much that I am. </p>

<p>What do you think?</p>

60

<p>I never participate in the "What are my chances" thread because it is impossible to comment on an applicant without knowing the entire picture. All we can offer is intelligent or ... idle speculation. </p>

<p>I understand why IDad see Suze as a stellar applicant with rare qualifications. While it is has been reported that only a few hundreds African -American score above 1450, we can safely assume that there are many more who have wonderful GPA and EC. I agree that Suze will be able to select her future school from a long list of prestigious schools. However, I have to disagree that Dartmouth and similarly selective schools could be viewed as a SAFETY for anyone. It may be plain semantics, but I consider that calling such schools "matches" is better. Take away the ink in the race box, and everyone on CC will start talking about the ubiquitous "crapshoot" of admissions in 2005. I think that race and socio-economic factors do play a role, but we have to be careful in overplaying its role by making anyone's application automatic.</p>