whose choice is it anyway

<p>Happymomof1, you are by far the most level-headed and truly loving parent I have read, thus far! Your logic and love is clear. Well done post #13.</p>

<p>I dunno, I agree with post #14. No drinking or smoking? OK, fair enough, since there’s lawbreaking involved. But no “nookie”? In college?!?! “What planet,” indeed.</p>

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<p>I pretty much agree with Pizzagir, although I do see some value to going to another region or otherwise getting out of Dodge in college. But there are kids who want to be sent to expensive, poor-quality private schools in another state instead of equally-good or even better–and MUCH cheaper–state schools in order to salve their egos. My feeling is that the kid probably had a choice to work a lot harder in HS and chose not to. They repeatedly made thier choices then, so they have less of a choice now. </p>

<p>If the parents have so much money that shelling out $200K for the distant school is barely a blip on their financial radar, that’s one thing. But that is not the case for the vast majority of parents.</p>

<p>For those who say that if you have $10K to spend you shouldn’t care what it is spent on, imagine that you have agreed to give S $10K towards buying a car so that he can hold down his first job. He has a choice between a nice but admittedly a little boring black sedan with 20K miles on it in good repair that has sterling maintenance records and gets great MPG, and a bright yellow Hummer with 100K miles on it that gets 5 MPG and about which the owner says, “Hey, man, sure I’ve changed the oil. And she’s real hot.” Is it being “controlling” to tell S that you will not fork over the $10K for the Hummer?</p>

<p>I would argue that, mom2college(post 39). Your example was the same principle as mine, where the parents’ generocity is an attempt to influence the other person. Influence is not equal to control. I am not confused on their meanings; I have looked up the definitions.
Control would be making a ruling to the prospective bride she was forbidden to marry man B., or must not marry either; or from the other perspective, if the prospective bride told the parents they must donate the same gift as A if she married man B. Then the bride would be trying to control the parents.
The difference as I see it, is in the definition of the words- where influence is trying to indirectly affect the course of events. If the parent says “ok to go to school(or marry) A or B, but I’ll chip in more for A” that is exactly the definition of influence. To tell the kid “you may not do B, but must do A” is directly trying to control the outcome. Control would be ordering the kid to do one or the other.</p>

<p>Toyota is offering special terms galore right now in hopes of attracting new and repeat customers. Other car companies are reaping benefits of Toyota’s troubles without offering special pricing and special terms. Each company is trying to influence buyers to buy their product. They cannot control our choice of which to purchase, if any, right now. We still have full freedom to choose. They have freedom to try to influence us.</p>

<p>Are parents obligated, however, to spend their money on schools that they have good reason to believe aren’t a good value for the money?</p>

<p>I think it can depend on the situation. But, no, they aren’t “obligated” - they are never obligated to do anything. When dealing with older kids (or adult kids), parents have to walk a fine line when using their money to “influence.” </p>

<p>Certainly, if a child has 2 options of similarly-priced schools and one is strong academically in the chosen major and one is weak academically, and the child ONLY wants to go to the weaker school because the BF goes there, then parents might need to use some discernment and refuse to pay for that second school. But, first, the parents need to try to help the child come to that conclusion herself by doing thorough visits of both schools, meeting with dept heads, etc. If it becomes clear that school #2 could be a hellhole and child would still want to go there because the BF goes there, then parents should refuse to pay…at that point, wisdom needs to rule.</p>

<p>However, hopefully after thorough campus visits, the child will come to the same conclusion and you won’t have to use the nuclear option of refusing to pay. Parents always need to reserve the nuclear option for only the most serious circumstances… otherwise you risk permanently damaging your relationship with your child. </p>

<p>More importantly, if your child KNOWS that mom and dad ONLY use the nuclear option for super important things (and not petty things) and the parents often turn out to be “right” about such matters, then I think most kids would pause and think, “gee, mom and dad only dig their heels in on very serious matters, therefore maybe they know something I don’t know.”</p>

<p>How’s this for controlling: H and I plan to buy our twins cars when they graduate from college (as our parents both did for us). Nothing super-luxurious – but new cars that will serve them as young adults. Since it’s our money, we get to pick out the cars. We won’t buy an SUV since we are opposed to them, and we won’t buy car brands that we believe are poor in quality. And we might just insist that it be a hybrid. And we might buy them both the same car so we can get a better deal at a dealership. Oh well.</p>

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<p>No, but that should be known before the application stage. “I won’t support your application to Party-On State U” is different from “Now that you’ve gotten into Party-On State U, I have bad news for you, dad and I won’t ever send you there.”</p>

<p>Before I spend my money on myself or other members of my family, I determine whether what I am buying is worth the price that is asked. House A may be worth $250,000 to me, for example, due to its size, condition, location, etc. House B may cost the same amount, and the same mortgage payments, taxes, etc. If I don’t like the street it’s on, or if it needs work, or if it’s smaller, or I don’t like the floor plan, I can say that it’s not worth the price to me, even though I still can afford it.</p>

<p>Why should decisions about college be different? The decision on where to go is equally subjective. But even looking at the objective data about colleges, they are not all equal. Why should I be expected to pay equally for schools that aren’t equal in my opinion?</p>

<p>It’s interesting as well that the issue of “control” only comes up when the parents balk at the costs. “My parents are trying to control me!” Why does no one ever say back, “Well, you’re trying to control your parents’ money! What gives you the right?”</p>

<p>The one thing to remember is that no matter what, the money is not the student’s. In the words of Cliff Huxtable, when one child asked if they were rich: “Your mother and I are rich. You have nothing.”</p>

<p>The difference is that the house you are buying for yourself and not for your kid.</p>

<p>What if you decided to give your kid a down payment on a house. You offer them $20,000 for one house because you really liked the floorplan, $10,000 for a second house with a less desireable floorplan, and only $5,000 on third house because the garage was too small. You’re simply using your gift to control what house your kid buys.</p>

<p>It is one thing if you are saying that you will pay more for schools that have worldwide recognition (MIT, Stanford, Yale, Caltech, etc) than for schools with regional recognition (state universities). It’s also reasonable to say you won’t pay out of state tuition since an instate school is available. </p>

<p>It’s a completely different thing if you rank the schools in your own mind and adjust how much you pay based on your ranking. Say you think UCLA is better than UCSB, so you pay more for UCLA than for UCSB. That is unfair to the student.</p>

<p>I spent a lot of time teaching my child to be discerning about value. Just because they turn 17 (because they’re usually 17 or just turned 18 when it comes time to make the decision on where to go to college) I should suddenly say, “OK, value doesn’t count”? Sorry, not in this lifetime. </p>

<p>If I give my child a down payment on a house, that’s a one-time gift, and I get to decide how much of a down payment it is. And my child also does not demand that I give her a down payment. If I decide that the down payment should vary based on the house, I’ll let her know why, but I will not allow her to bully me into paying something that I don’t think is worth it.</p>

<p>But college is a 4 year commitment, whose cost is likely to rise each year. And there are some colleges that are simply not worth it.</p>

<p>Oh, and about the wedding example - darn straight how much I pay for a wedding depends on whether I approve of the match! If I think my d’s making a mistake, then yes, I’ll tell her. If she wants to go ahead anyway, I’ll support her emotionally, but don’t think for a minute that I’ll use my money to celebrate it.</p>

<p>I think the OPs friend’s concern is paying for a school where she feels there is a negative social influence vs. a state school of unknown name. I think the friend should visit both campuses and look at all factors in order to make the right decision. I don’t know the social scene at UC Santa Cruz.</p>

<p>“Your mother and I are rich. You have nothing.” LOL.</p>

<p>I always find it fascinating when students post, “We have an income of 150,000 per year.”</p>

<p>Reallllllly, WE DO???</p>

<p>Still, I agree that it is a fair way to do it to let the kids know the funding on the front side of the college search, and also any other ground rules, like, “You can’t attend the same school as your highschool boyfriend.” etc… Fair or not, the rules ought to be hammered out by the end of junior year to get all the sulking and slammed doors out of the way.</p>

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<p>My sister just bought a house that had a particular drawback that might impact resale value. My dad was lending her some money towards it (whether it was a gift or loan I truly don’t know, but whatever). He wanted to see the house and make sure that he was comfortable thinking it was a wise investment before he gave his money. I think he’s entitled.</p>

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<p>But part of that IS value. Sorry, I’m not going to send my kid to a mediocre school halfway across the country. If they want mediocre, they can do mediocre for a better dollar value nearby.</p>

<p>If the parents wanted to edit their kid’s college choices they should have done it prior to this point. </p>

<p>As far as UCSC’s reputation goes, it is largely poppycock. Yes it does attract a “granola” element that you won’t find at a more conservative campus but it is absurd to assume that a student who would not be a drug user under any other circumstances will become one at UCSC or any other school with this sort of reputation. There are lots of niches in which a kid can find her/his tribe at UCSC and partying is not a part of them all.</p>

<p>FWIW my brother has worked in the campus fire department for almost 30 years and he tells me that the UCSC colleges with the biggest party reputation and the most frequent noise/drunk and disorderly/ alcohol related emergency calls are also the ones with the greatest numbers of comparatively conservative/smallest numbers of “hippy” students. </p>

<p>I had some of my happiest moments at UCSC. I was not a drug user and never became one. I did drink more than I should have my freshman year but I think I have that in common with many/most people who have been college freshmen My friends were like minded and we all received a tremendous education.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl,</p>

<p>First of all, your dad was lending money as opposed to gifting money. Bankers always want things checked out first so they can be sure they get their money back.</p>

<p>Second, I did say in my post that it’s reasonable for parents not to pay for out of state tuition if an instate school offers the same program. I think you must have missed that part. UCLA and UCSB are both instate for california residents and are not halfway across the country.</p>

<p>I regret my example of the difference between influence and control didn’t clear it up for Bigtrees(post 49). Does bigtrees suggest Toyota is trying to control every potential car buyer by offering better deals- making their cars easier to buy? Or is Toyota merely trying to persuade potential car buyers? I know I don’t feel forced. I have looked up both words in the dictionary, may I suggest Bigtrees do the same? Paraphrasing the definitions as they apply here, to control would be to require a certain decision, and to influence is to indirectly try to affect a certain decision. Choosing a bigger gift or smaller gift isn’t control because the recipient still has the right to choose as they wish. It is influence because it indirectly affects the choice because a bigger gift may make one choice easire than another- but the freedom of choice remains.
Pizzagirl (in 46) gives a great example of twin gifts that show no control at all. She and her hub decide what car they want to give their twins, and so they do. They do not order the young adults what they must buy. In no way is she controlling the recipient. Chedva has it too, in para 3 of post 48 in that the issue of control can work both ways and few have mentioned that.</p>

<p>Just reread the OP more carefully and saw that you say the kid in question doesn’t have clear convictions where partying is concerned. It strikes me that: </p>

<p>1) the parents may be unwilling to put the responsibility for the kid’s past partying on him and choose to blame his environment and peers</p>

<p>2) the kid will likely fall into a party culture wherever he goes. Unless a student has some sort of convictions about why he or she is not drinking dorm life in the majority of colleges will likely encourage some level of partying.</p>

<p>My point is that their willingness to pay for the CSU over the “party hardy” UC is pretty much rendered moot if they have a kid who will “go with the flow”</p>

<p>OP: I think irrespective of who so ever paying the bills the child should be the one choosing the college. If the child is not happy at the said college then all bets are off.
It is true that each and every school can be turned into a party school and it is up to the child to use or miuse the oppertunities.</p>